Thread: Summoner - Eidolon Skill Use
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December 6th, 2012, 09:43 #1
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EDIT: Moved from a game discussion thread. This discussion is regarding a summoner's eidolon and what evolutions they require to use certain skills.
Originally Posted by Skellan
If you say so in your game ok, its the GM rule , however i see no mention of that in the core rule book , neither for skills like disable devices or use magic device.
Obviously its not clear, i am not he only one asking the question :
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o065?C...the-skills-UMD.
IF only the bipede form can use it at level 1 , that without investing any evolution point in , that makes that form considerably superior at the beggining with a lot more usefull skills and should be mentioned more clearly in the rule.
Oh yes you could spend evolution point and put arms to the quadrupede eidolon but thats frickin ugly and i did not envision the eidolon to look like that.
Now if people are narrowminded,if characters are nothing more than a list of stats, next level ill make a very optimized 4 armed with claw eidolon bipede ,who can uses the skills AND be more powerful in combat than that poor fantasy rabbit tiger everyone hates cause he tried to sleight of hand and climb...Last edited by Trenloe; December 6th, 2012 at 20:00.
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December 6th, 2012, 15:04 #2Originally Posted by Haerilis
If you are required to buy hands in order for your critter to use certain skills.. you are required to buy hands. There are tradeoffs in the different eidolon types... different 'built in' benefits. You can skin it in a variety of different ways.. as long as the functions don't change... if I understand the rules correctly.Full License Operator - You must have a 'Lite' License to play in my games.
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December 6th, 2012, 16:51 #3
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Originally Posted by Blackfoot
Being a quad base form doesn't mean you couldn't have fine manipulation. Some animals have prehensile digits on their feet (apes) and dragons have always had fine manipulation with their claws as far as I know (old draconomicons etc.). Unless you put something like hooves on a particular set of limbs I would be hard pressed to see why it couldn't be done with them.
sorry mate this is pathfinder society not a freeform game. eidolons do not have bodyform restrictions on skill use in the pathfinder society rules. Unless you can point them out then you really shouldnt be forcing me to pick a humnanoid eidolon just for the sake of fluff
we can debate all day about the presence or absence of prehensile paws on a quadruped, but this is pathfinder, not a lecture on zoology. There are balance reasons that require eidolons of any form to be able to use skills. If you interfere with this, and you do so against the instructions of the Society, then you force the use of a bipedal eidolon. Which is already in itself inherently stronger.
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December 6th, 2012, 17:02 #4
Trying to find the rules for this one way or another.. not so much as it relates to your character but in an effort to better understand the class in general... here's what I've found so far:
Originally Posted by PF PRD
Originally Posted by PF PRD
Originally Posted by PF PRDLast edited by Blackfoot; December 6th, 2012 at 18:45.
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December 6th, 2012, 18:24 #5
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This discussion is probably best in a thread/forum of its own rather than here which is about a scenario.
Generally speaking, a quadraped does not have hands to perform fine manipulation, the ape discussion is mute as while quadrapeds, they have 2 arms and 2 legs, not 4 legs(which a quadraped Eidalon must have).
The rules specifically state under Eidalon that: "it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills."
I beleve that this makes it quite clear that some skills will necessitate that an Eidalon has arms to perform certain skills (otherwise they wouldn't of written this).
Those skills are going to include anything that require someone to manipulate an item - a chimpanzee doesn't peel a banana with it's feet, it does it with its hands. A cow, dog or your average quadraped with 4 legs can't peel a banana, likewise they can't pick locks, or pockets or disarm traps or wield swords etc.
To resolve this, all that is required is to make your Eidalon a biped or leave it as a quadraped and have it evolve arms.
There are always going to be times that a GM has to make a call for rules that are ambiguous, not covered or just don't fit. I know at least 3 GM's from this community have expresses the same ruling which makes me think that there is a majority consenus on this issue.Last edited by Tinculin; December 6th, 2012 at 20:12.
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December 6th, 2012, 21:17 #6
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Originally Posted by Blackfoot
Ok i get your point, but thats an hell of a tradeoff at level 1, 10 speed more vs Disable device, sleight of hand, UMD, ride, etc.. Add to that an easier way to equip your eidolon, as i suppose you could custom craft a quadruped ,some barding, while a medium sized humanoid could just grab anything he wants in a scenario, use a belt of ogre strengh ,rings, whatever equipment he fancies.
That said ive seen some more odditiesint he pathfinder advanced guide, for example how a gunslinger is viable in society with 150 starting gold . Even with the reduced prices, the cost of his ammo, black powder , pellets and guns(yes you get a starting one but still ),makes it extremely costly to go dungeoneering, i would think twice before shooting . Or a cavalier without mount, as i dont see them being usable in any scenario whe played.
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December 6th, 2012, 22:48 #7Originally Posted by Haerilis
If you specialise, everything has a tradeoff. But, the tradeoffs don't always add up when comparing across classes/archtypes/special abilities/etc.Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!
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December 6th, 2012, 23:09 #8
It is definitely true that all things are not equal... but some things feel cooler than others so we accept certain tradeoffs that aren't necessarily the best. (see my Gimpy characters thread)
There's nothing to stop you from building your bunny as a biped with little arms and hands... something like a raccoon... an excellent hopper... you can even buy him an evolution that lets him hop better I'm sure.
You have the option to give your guy a full refit before you play again at level 2 if you aren't happy with the way he feels.Full License Operator - You must have a 'Lite' License to play in my games.
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