PC action option

[Moon Wizard]

I'm working on finalizing some changes to the options in the 3.5E ruleset (with an eye towards porting to the 4E ruleset). I wanted to get everyone's take on one of the options I'm thinking about. I originally posted as a response to another thread, but want to get a wider audience.

Original
The original option was listed in the 4E ruleset as:
Combat - Target: Enable PC actions

It could be set to on, off or report. If turned off, the player could not drop rolls or effects on tokens or combat tracker. If set to report, it would only report target of drop but not apply. Originally, this was broken down as individual options for attack, damage and effects.

Over time, I felt that the option does not really fit in with my intent.

Proposed
Combat - Target: PC actions

* On
** PC/NPC rolls use targeting and effects
** All rolls displayed in chat window
** All results displayed in chat window

* GM View
** PC/NPC rolls use targeting and effects
** All rolls displayed in chat window
** Results that include NPC as target or source are only shown to GM.
** If results only shown to GM, then targeting-only notice posted to client chat.

* Off
** PC rolls ignore targeting (no target effects, no results)
** NPC rolls use targeting and effects
** All rolls displayed in chat window
** Results that include NPC as target or source are only shown to GM.

Thoughts / Questions
* Do we really need an Off setting? This was originally added to deal with rogue players making rolls that disrupted games. However, perhaps the new kick option is really the solution.
* This sort of ties into Show GM Dice Rolls option. Perhaps it should be another value for that option.
* What options do you think make sense for your games?

Thanks,
JPG

[madman]

1. I don't think we need an off setting, the players can just throw their dice in the chat window if need be.

2. However I like the report option in your d20_JPG for things with odd DR or whatnot. Though I'm not sure how it will work in the next release. Or if it's an issue.

3. On -
** PC/NPC rolls use targeting and effects
** All rolls displayed in chat window
** All results displayed in chat window

4. GM View
** PC/NPC rolls use targeting and effects
** All rolls displayed in chat window
** Results that include NPC as target or source are only shown to GM.( I think it would speed things up, if the players know what they did was a success or not, without the GM saying you hit every time.)
** If results only shown to GM, then targeting-only notice posted to client chat.

I just drag the results to the window if I want my players to see the roll.(which I do once in a while to show them I am not just making things up, this works great for me. I think show dice could be removed as an option.

My Thoughts......

Chris

[Moon Wizard]

Thanks, madman.

* The off setting just slowed people down who wanted to be disruptive. My thought right now is to remove, since it doesn't really add value. I'm not sure of any GM who would want to apply it to all their players anyways.

* DR will be automatically handled by effects in the next 3.5E ruleset. So, hopefully, that will not be a concern.

* The GM view option is for GMs that like to run a "less information" style of game. (i.e. players don't know about DR/vulnerability/immunity, or what AC hits the creature, or what effects the creatures have, etc.)

* The players will still see the rolls with the GM view option unless the Show GM Rolls option is off. I might change the "Show GM Rolls" option to "Show GM actions" with values of on, off and rolls only (i.e. no attack, damage, effect results).

Cheers,
JPG

[madman]

That clears things up some. I think an option for less info would be great! So if a creature had DR, SR and whatnot it would not be included in the attack report to the chat, but would still report a success or failure. I love the less info on the PC'S side to avoid confusion and speed things up without....metagaming.

So it would report something like (player attack #1 [Hit])...?
But nothing else.


Chris

[Zeus]

I agree that the Off option doesn't add any real value, particularly if the Kick option is coming back.

For me, I use the On option so am happy to continue using that moving forward. Having said that I appreciate that other DMs may prefer to minimise the amount of information the ruleset provides to all clients so the GM view option sounds sensible.

Regarding the Show GM Rolls, I'm not sure I follow your proposed description am I right in understanding:

- On - All action/roll results show on client chatwindow
- Off - No action/roll results shown on client chatwindow
- Rolls Only - No action/All roll results shown on client chatwindow

If correct, would it not also make sense to have:

- Action Only - All action/No roll results shown on client chatwindow

Then again, what is meant by action?

[Leonal]

While not directly related to rolls, what I'd like is for NPC effects to not be reported to the players on an NPC's turn. (d20_JPG)

If it's already possible to turn this off, I'm not sure of how. ^^;
***
Regarding rolls, I prefer results to be GM's view only as there may often be situational modifiers that have an effect on the outcome, as madman/Chris mentioned.

[DNH]

I am one of the DMs who threw this particular spanner in the works! Re the 4e game, anyway. Here are some thoughts then ...

* I would agree that the Off option is probably little used and could be removed. On a personal basis, our group has been playing together for many years now and I can trust my players not to make rolls when they shouldn't be. A stern word or two would nip any such action in the bud, should it occur. I appreciate other DMs (I was a *DM* for many years, long before I *GM*'ed anything!) play with many other people, many of those being unknown quantities at the start of the game, but I think the kick option would soon deal with these rogue players.

* The On option clearly has its place. Many DMs are happy for this level of automation and that's fine. It doesn't really suit my game though, but ...

* The GM View option looks to be perfect. It's the old Report option, with added bells and whistles. This sounds like it would allow me as DM to adjudicate everything before it gets applied (and possibly fudge something here and there) but still have the players take their share of the donkey work.

* Not too sure what this means though - "If results only shown to GM, then targeting-only notice posted to client chat" - unless it's a chat post something like (I forget the syntax) "Boris attacks - Longsword +2, rolls a 24 --> Purple Worm #2". ie whatever the DM sees, minus the hit/miss results.

In short then, I like and welcome your proposed changes and would agree that you could probably quite safely remove the Off option.

Thanks.

[Moon Wizard]

For PC to PC actions, the On/Report options will be identical (i.e. full disclosure).

Here is an example of what I am thinking for actions (i.e. attack, damage, etc.) that include at least one NPC (i.e. non-friendly faction):

On Example
Roll:
Testor -> [ATTACK (R)] Heavy Crossbow [EFFECTS +2] (1d20+12=23)
Result:
Attack[23] -> [at Monster 33] [DEF EFFECTS -2] [MISS]

Report Example
Roll:
Testor -> [ATTACK (R)] Heavy Crossbow [EFFECTS +2] (1d20+12=23)
Result (GM):
Attack[23] -> [at Monster 33] [DEF EFFECTS -2] [MISS]
Result (Player):
Attack[23] -> [at Monster 33]

Off Example (PC initiator)
Roll:
Testor -> [ATTACK (R)] Heavy Crossbow [EFFECTS +2] (1d20+12=23)
Result:
(none)

Off Example (NPC initiator)
Roll:
Monster 33 -> [ATTACK (R)] Bite (1d20+8=26)
Result (GM):
Attack[26] -> [at Testor] [DEF EFFECTS +4] [HIT]
Result (Player):
Attack[26] -> [at Testor]

Also, to clarify, results will always be hidden from players when the roll is hidden (i.e. Show GM rolls).

JPG

[Moon Wizard]

DrZ,

I'm not sure I understand your suggestion. Let me clarify my terminology, and then let's talk about the "Show GM Roll" option.

Roll = Any roll of the dice.

Action = A roll or effect initiated by a PC/NPC (attack, damage, init, save, skill, ...)

Result = The application of a roll or effect to the target of an action.
The only actions which this will apply to right now is:
* Attack Rolls - defense effects and hit/miss/crit indication
* Damage Rolls - adjusted damage information

The proposed change would only reflect the reporting of the result, not change that the result was applied (i.e. damage).

Given that, my proposal was to change "Show GM Roll" to a new option of "Show Rolls to Players" or "Show Actions to Players" with 3 options:
* On - Rolls/Actions/Results are visible to all
* Rolls Only - Rolls/Actions are visible to all, Results visible to GM only
* Off - All GM sourced actions are hidden, all NPC actions are hidden, PC actions visible to all, results visible to GM only

As you can tell, I haven't found a good name for the new option, or a combined option. Maybe "Show GM/NPC actions". Suggestions are appreciated.

BTW, thanks to everyone for chipping in on this one. The more I dug into what people were asking, the more complicated it seemed to get. Trying to keep as simple as I can, while giving people options they need.

Thanks,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

Leonal,

In the upcoming 3.5E ruleset, you will be able to make individual effects GM visible only. This is automatically done for DR, REGEN, FHEAL, etc.

This means that only PC applied effects will be visible on turn change for NPCs.

Cheers,
JPG