What's the simplest rule system out there?

[MeganHunter]

Galeric, thank you for the mail. I basically went through from my memories of 2cd edition and Basic, and made my own d20 system. I did this to dumb it down a whole lot; I did that because this campaign can get a little crazy, so I wanted to make things almost board game like and have most of the puzzle solving be the players talking out their strategy instead of rolling correctly. When a player saw me remove things like classes and replace movement range with squares, he instantly thought of the 4th he'd been playing. From the little I've been able to glean, 4th is just as complicated as 3.5 but in a different way: more of a focus on miniature battle, like Warhammer. That might not be accurate. But either way, I think the similarities he saw to my campaign were just on the surface: mine's purely made to make combat as simple as possible, not to open up a bunch of strategic options. I will look into C&C and 4th, at this point I don't mind playing in either of the 3 ways I just want to get them started already lol.

Vodokar, I'm just starting out with FG so I may have the terminology wrong. Basically I was looking for in-game rulebooks, legal ones for any system, that I might be able to purchase: things like Call of Cthulhu, ect. The campaign setting is less important since I have my own. But in the same manner we can load up 3.5 edition spells or what-have-you, I thought actual rule books might be available inside the program. I do see what you mean though, it's far from necessary, and I don't mind having a PDF or word doc open separately.

But if anyone has a link to instructions to make your own "book" (ie 3.5 edition spells) I would love to make one for the magic items in my campaign, if not the entire game rules themselves. That's all I meant by module. (The miniatures part was me simply hearing word-of-mouth that D&D changed from 3.5 to 4 so they could "screw people out of the cost of buying all those miniatures," and would never form an agreement with FG because the miniatures here are free. But as you say, folks tend to get passionate about their brand of choice.)

Edit: I've started to find a few of these module creation notes here, and boy howdy are they mighty complicated.

[vodokar]

Oh, Ok. So, you meant "FG Library modules" of the rulebooks.

Yes, if it has anything to do with the two modern versions of D&D (4e and Pathfinder), neither WOTC nor Paizo has signed on with Fantasy Grounds. It is not legal to buy, sell or trade publicly any rulebooks from either company in Fantasy Grounds format.

The work around of having to make your own online rulebooks seems to keep the two big boys off of our backs since you presumably have to actually have a legally obtained copy of the rulebooks from which to be working from.

And yes, making your own modules requires some basic xml knowledge and is not for the faint of heart.

There is also a work around actually manually making modules for 4th ed, in that, if you have a subscription to DDI with WOTC, then you have legal access to the information of every rulebook, Dungeon and Dragon magazine without having actually purchased hard copies.

Thus, if you have legal access to the info in the DDI electronic database, it is legal for you to use a program like "Tennian's 4e parser" to connect to that database you legally have a subscription to and read that data stream and then transform it into a format compatible with Fantasy Grounds Library Modules and then use these modules for your own personal use during your games.

So, with 4e, it is possible to automatically make useable library modules to use in Fantasy Grounds. There are plenty of threads that explain how to do that using Tennian's 4e Parser. You will need a DDI subscription to do so.

I'm not aware if there is any way to do the same thing with Pathfinder.

Regardless of wether you can make these online library modules or not, you will still need to buy some actual physical books in order to actually play 4e or Pathfinder. The type of modules that you can make using Tennian's Parser grab things like spell lists and monster stats out of the database. It is very useful, but it doesn't grab the textual explanation of the rulebooks.

So, your absolute minimum investment in order to be able to play 4e would be the purchase of a Rules Compendium and a subscription to DDI. That gives the player enough information to play. As a DM though, just like any other version of D&D, you'll need and want more than just the core rules.

Likewise with Pathfinder, the bare minimum you would need to understand how to play would be a copy of the Core Players Handbook. But, a DM would want and need more.

Regarding what you heard about "WOTC changing from 3.5 to 4 in order to screw people out of money of buying miniatures". (hmmm, say that to yourself a couple times and tell me that doesn't sound like someone's crazy conspiracy theory).

First of all, miniatures are not required to play 4e. Nor are miniatures purchased from WOTC. In point of fact, WOTC doesn't even make miniatures anymore. They make sets of inexpensive tokens. You are free to purchase or not purchase them from them.

Secondly, 3.5 and Pathfinder need something to keep track of where your character is on a tactical map equally as much as 4e does. For those people that were using miniatures to play 3.5, it isn't like their miniature became obsolete and they had to throw them in the trash and purchase new WOTC miniatures to play 4e. A miniature is a miniature is a miniature.

Some people use miniatures. Some people use tokens. Some people use marbles or coins or little pieces of paper. And on FG, we use electronic tokens. The fact remains: all modern versions of D&D are more tactical and thus need some means to keep track of where your characters and creatures are on a tactical map. But, it's not as if people started using miniatures with D&D just recently. People have been using miniatures or tokens since day 1 with D&D. After all, D&D started as a miniatures wargame called Chainmail.

WOTC didn't change from 3.5 to 4 to sell more miniatures. They changed from 3.5 to 4 to sell more books. Also, they felt a legitmate need to update the rules into something more modern. Wether you agree or not agree with the changes they made, they did so believing it was the best for the game as a whole.

At any rate, I'm just curious. There is absolutely nothing wrong with simply playing AD&D. If you already own all your own rulebooks, no one is forcing you to invest in the new game. If you don't still have your own original AD&D rulebooks, you can buy OSRIC or C&C and still continue to play a game very much like AD&D and there certainly is nothing wrong with that.

I'm wondering, because you don't really seem too pleased with the notion that you will have to learn a new game and purchase new rulebooks. You don't have to if you don't want to. Don't play modern D&D because it's what other people are doing; play it cause you want to or don't. There is no gun to your head.

If your player told you he/she thought your game resembled 4e simply because you were using miniatures or tokens on a map, he/she clearly has no clue of the history of D&D or what they are talking about.

Oh, and the electronic tokens for Fantasy Grounds are not free. They are sold in the Fantasy Grounds Store.

Vodokar, I'm just starting out with FG so I may have the terminology wrong. Basically I was looking for in-game rulebooks, legal ones for any system, that I might be able to purchase: things like Call of Cthulhu, ect. The campaign setting is less important since I have my own. But in the same manner we can load up 3.5 edition spells or what-have-you, I thought actual rule books might be available inside the program. I do see what you mean though, it's far from necessary, and I don't mind having a PDF or word doc open separately.

But if anyone has a link to instructions to make your own "book" (ie 3.5 edition spells) I would love to make one for the magic items in my campaign, if not the entire game rules themselves. That's all I meant by module. (The miniatures part was me simply hearing word-of-mouth that D&D changed from 3.5 to 4 so they could "screw people out of the cost of buying all those miniatures," and would never form an agreement with FG because the miniatures here are free. But as you say, folks tend to get passionate about their brand of choice.)

Edit: I've started to find a few of these module creation notes here, and boy howdy are they mighty complicated.

[Moon Wizard]

As vodokar mentioned, we do have token packs for sale in the FG store.

If you would rather do it yourself, there are some token sets floating around the web that you can download for free. The biggest problem with that approach is having to standardize them to the same size, so that they are the same size on the map.

Also, you might search for threads on making tokens. There are a couple tools floating around that might help you make your own, if you're interested.

For the game, my two cents. I feel that 4E at its core is a much more streamlined system for D&D; however, the character options are vastly more complex. It's really just a trade-off of content and style of play. I think most people update to the new versions to try something slightly newer, but still familiar.

All the options that people have suggested for simple rulesets are the ones I would suggest. In the end, if you are running your own system anyways, it really doesn't matter what ruleset you use. You just need one that doesn't get in the way of your style of play.

Cheers,
JPG

[MeganHunter]

Oh no worries on the tokens, I'm an illustrator so I'm just planning to make my own. I've got a cintiq and I have to say playing around with the maps, drawing and revealing masks last night, it's wonderfully effortless and a joy to do. I've already started looking up how to create my own buttons, icons, ect though I'm sure I won't mess around with all that until after we've started.

[Griogre]

One comment on the getting DDI to make 4E modules - you only need to sign up for a month, its not an ongoing expense if you don't like DDI. On 4E I don't find it more or less complicated from any version of D&D its just complicated in a different place - the powers.

You might also consider just running the 4E with the Essentials PH's Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms which are more like older versions of D&D. You can pick them up on Amazon for about $15 a piece.

[StuartW]

If you're looking for a simple system, with an old-school feel and ready-made library modules (monsters, spells and rules), then I'd suggest Labyrinth Lord (a free retro-clone of D&D Basic/Expert/Companion/Master, available from the Wiki) or Basic Roleplaying (a commercial ruleset, which uses Call of Cthulhu mechanics).

The former isn't too pretty (I followed the artwork in the rulebook) but also has a slightly better vellum skin. The latter is quite good looking and GM-moddable, but not free (but not much different to a month's subscription to DDI). In both of them the library modules are already built, so you can just load-em-up and start playing.

Stuart

[Doswelk]

Ignoring my bias as to what the best system is

I have every edition of (A)D&D so far and only really played 1st and 2nd, I gather that 4th edition plays better than it reads (I would hope so! As it reads (to me) ruddy awful!)

A member of my group plays 4e another night and like it a lot so I am most likely being unfair.

For me the question of "simple" rule system has two meanings, simple to learn the rules and simple to knock up an adventure when real life gets in the way.

I used to despair at how long creating a D20 Modern NPC used to take to create, then I discovered Savage Worlds now I can create NPCs mid-game if I have to! Fully stated and capable of dealing with anything the PCs throw at me!

For the D&D feel I would also suggest C&C.

[Raruku]

I'd say the simplest one is the adventure book ruleset - the really old one designed to be played entirely from a paperback book. It is probably too simple though. It's a system designed to expand on the single-player Fighting Fantasy books to accommodate two or three players and one DM. You just have three stats: Skill, Stamina, and Luck

It can be hard to find copies now, but if you can it is still a really fun game to play, especially with the nice illustrations for each room and a ruleset that doesn't require you to look things up. The rules cover about three pages and the players don't really need to know about any of them before you start playing.

Here is the first one and also some others:



They are also making some new ones now.

[MeganHunter]

Wow I was just thinking of Lone Wolf! Though I didn't know they made a p&p system, I only knew about the choose your own adventure books.

Well I ended up making my own system for this campaign, using the Generic character sheets. The reason is because the story will cause the players' stats, powers and even forms to fluctuate wildly. I wanted to make sure everyone remained about the same combat wise. I also wanted something to draw more female players and get everyone's wives in, who worried p&p was too complicated. My rulebook just passed the fifty page mark, but here are the main reasons I was worried about finding a comparable system or making mine work in Fantasy Grounds. Bu thank you, Generic. And thank you Griogre!

Races: Only human players.

Classes: No classes, purchase things at level up.

Alignment: None.

Ability Scores: 3 - 18, point buy gives you 75 put them where you want.

Saves: None, just rolls against one of your ability scores with modifiers.

Accuracy: All start at same thac0. Bonus based on ability score of your choice, not always strength. Can improve at level up.

Health: 8 hp at start, +4 options at level up, minor resting heals to full.

Armor: Only four categories, heavier armor gives less movement and carrying capacity. No proficiencies, any armor can be switched at any time.

Encumbrance: Isn't followed, just has to stay within reason to armor worn.

Initiative: 1d10 + dex score each round, order goes highest to lowest with enemies landing in between yours.

Weapons: No single proficiencies, you learn schools that use broad strokes (Pole school handles wizard staffs, spears and large halberds.) S / P / B modifers aren't in effect. Infinite ammo within reason. Virtually no dual wielding.

Called Shots: None but each weapon type has tricks they can unlock, can sometimes be used cross-school once you know them.

Proficiencies: Have 1 - 4 ranks of growing strength. Like Lone Wolf, I won't even roll half the time..."if anyone knows Search II, turn to page 47."

Spells: Purchase like skills. Short design-your-own tree to make basic custom powers, whether they're magical or not. Strength based on character level so they grow with you.

Penalties: permanent disadvantages to gain more level up purchases.

Sockets: Weps and armor can be socketed with an enchantment. These can be powered up by fulfilling criteria/quests. Party has chance to destroy item to keep enchantment or vice versa.

And of course the visuals are Jim Henson style, also to appeal more to the ladies, but that seems to call out for a simple dumbed down ruleset whether it's rational or not.

I do have to grudgingly admit that while I tried to give them some sample templates I know would work well in the world, but didn't follow conventional classes, they ran for the hills and made things like fighter and thief. And these are the guys I'm talking about! I really thought they'd jump at the chance to try out something new. C'est la vie.

[Griogre]

Glad you found the Generic ruleset useful. I did think of this old simple system from Flying Buffalo - Tunnels and Trolls. You might want to mine it for ideas. There is a free download here at RPGNow: https://www.rpgnow.com/product_info....ducts_id=54407