Game Mechanics for Role Playing?

[RKBrumbelow]

Griogre, I am going to strongly suggest you re read what I said then try again.

[Griogre]

I read it and was surprised you said you strongly disagreed with me because I though we were more or less on the same page, other than you seem to think editions matter much more than I do.

[RKBrumbelow]

I think it is the players that the editions attract, a secondary correlation. For example: the more recent a player is to P&P RPGs the more likely they seem to be to prefer the dungeon crawl, they also are going to gravitate to newer rule sets. The inverse of this is that people who have stayed with RPGs longer tend to prefer more RP to dungeon crawling and tend to prefer older rulesets. Applying that to the D&D line 2nd Ed players will tend to be more RP 4th Ed players will tend to be more dungeon crawlers. Also I do believe that it takes less effort to simply dungeon crawl and newer rulesets tend to want to widen their market base and so work to the lowest common denominator.

[vodokar]

While I can certainly understand the point RK is trying to make, my own experience is that Griogre is correct. It just depends on who is playing. I just spent 3 hours roleplaying in a 4e game - no combats during the whole session. Likewise, in my game yesterday, we had one minor combat in 3 hours.

Do the younger crowd seem to do less roleplaying. I think that is likely true. Are they more drawn to newer games. Well, they can't buy the old games, at least without a lot more effort. So, I would think that is true also. But, it isn't the game, it's the people. The younger crowd often play differently than the older crowd, regardless of the game.

[Griogre]

Very, very true on age. At one time I owned a game store close to an elementary school and had some game tables in the back for games. I would have some of the kids drop in for a few hours after school. It was fascinating to listen to those little kids play. They had a great time but no adult or teenager would play anything like they did.

[bigbsonnier]

I don't know that this thread is the place for this question but reading your posts really made it pop into my head. I have a group that really like the dungeon crawling and awesome slaughter of badazz monsters. I love that too, but i'm also very much a story guy, i love the story of the heroes talking to the towns folk barganing with the emporer/villian etc. and i don't really get that kind of feed back from the group when i DM.

I also get the "and we're walking, and we're walking" when they are traveling from town to dungeon entrance. so its usually me rolling a few times to try and randomize monsters in the area but if feels dry and then for camp its whos on watch roll roll roll ok we get up and head to the dungeon and i get "and we're walking... " all over again.

Sadly the game usually takes us 4 hours to go through 2 or 3 rooms in a dungeon caues they all like to Bull around and its great fun and coke snotting hilarious at times but my story fix goes right out the window sometimes and it kills me a little.

Any ideas on some fixes for these problems.

[RKBrumbelow]

It might not work in FG2 but around a table we have an OOC stick. Whomever has the OOC stick can speak OOC, anyone else who says something it is in character. Also we have designated break times, if you are not at the table and did not leave written instructions then you forfeit your offensive and defensive actions

[vodokar]

The best thing that a DM can do is to lead by good example. If you make the NPC's unique and interesting with distinguishing characteristics, mannerisms and speech patterns and doing interesting stuff, sometimes the players will take the hint and start following suit.

Then again, just not everyone is into roleplaying. Some people are simply action junkies. Nothing wrong with that either. The hard part, as DM, you need to meet both types of players needs. Ultimately, everyone is there to have fun. That's what is important at the end of the day. You shouldn't force someone to roleplay anymore than you should force someone not to. All you can do is lead them to the water...It is up to them if they want to drink.

Luckily, not everyone is like that; despite what some people might say, even in games like 4e, people do roleplay. It just depends on the group of players you have and how much they want to get into it.

[ddavison]

I noticed that when my local groups first tried 4E that they tended to lessen their roleplaying and let the mechanics lead the way a little too much. I think the various names of the powers and canned fluff were viewed as replacements for describing what the characters were actually trying to accomplish. The focus then became on the mechanical differences between the different powers and normally the fluff got dropped off as the focus shifted to the in-game effects. In older editions you normally just hit or missed and then you often felt compelled to describe it in your own words. Now it felt like you were reading from cue cards or just spouting off the names of the attacks or mechanical effect.

Another issue was that healing and second winds were getting handed around without a roleplaying description of what was actually going on. Because HP loss was viewed as physical damage in earlier editions, the idea of getting *healing* by all these sources seemed anti-roleplaying because it didn't make sense with this assumption. IMO, this is mostly due to poor choice of wording and the whole system would have worked better if they completely changed the terms around so it disassociated itself from previously defined values.

Skill challenges were another area that tried to force a game mechanic solution to something that would have been more roleplaying based in earlier editions. People seemed to spend more time trying to find a goofy way to rationalize the use of their highest stat bonus than deciding what made the most sense from a roleplaying perspective.

Everyone's mileage may vary, but this is what I saw in two different groups I played with who moved to 4E after having played a lot of earlier editions. Over time they were able to adjust and bring the roleplaying aspects back in to the sessions -- but it took them a while.

I think the GM can take the lead on this with just a little encouragement and by framing things appropriately. There is no reason why your players can't describe their actions just like they did before. You can easily describe the damage you receive as something other than just physical. You can roleplay your way through skill challenges. For the most part you can do any amount of roleplaying you did in the old system just as easily in the new system. You just have to bring the roleplaying mindset with you to whatever system you choose to use.

[vodokar]

Greetings ddavison. Nice to hear from you and thanks for all you do for us.

What you stated about hit points is actually a myth, however. Here it is, directly from page 34 of the 1e AD&D PHB:

CHARACTER HIT POINTS
Each character has a varying number of hit points,' just as monsters do.
These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the
character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit
points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained.
The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands
for skill, luck, and/or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take
about 5 hit points of damage before being Killed. Let us suppose that a 10th
level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his
constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This IS the equivalent of about 18 hit
dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It
is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic flghter can take that much
punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and
the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat
skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.

So, there we have it, straight from E. Gary Gygax. The definition of hit points has never changed, thus, it isn't hard to imagine that something like second wind or healing surges can exist as a mechanic, since the vast majority of hit points gained over 1st level don't actually represent that your body takes more to damage it; they represent skill, luck, inner reserve, downright honeryness and stubborness and whatever.