First-Person View Mode for 2024

Happy New Year!

The year 2023 for us was a down year for us, but a year of big investments. Our team has been working on several cool features and we are close to releasing one of these major features - First Person View.

How does First-Person View work in a world of 2D flat RPGs?

The best thing I can do is show you two small sneak peek videos I put together. The first is from the D&D Dragonlance module. It shows an encampment and the occupants that the players would face within. The 2D map of the area is provided within the module and placed at the feet of the players, complete with rendered line of sight, lighting effects, and even special Fx layers. The NPCs all use the provided art from the book and these are rendered as transparent stand-ups that face towards the camera. They are scaled relative to other creatures and positioned in a way that makes sense. The result is a sort of psuedo-3d environment that allows players to look around (up, down, behind, etc.), target foes and move within this space.



This second video is from the Fallout 2d20 ruleset. This ruleset has been lighter on maps in general, but it has great NPC artwork we can tap into. We plan to support all rulesets with this new mode.



Is this going to be time-consuming to set up?

We don't think so. We plan to work with internal community developers and module developers to prepare the art from the books to have transparent backgrounds and all the necessary metadata that is needed to properly scale and position everything in first-person view. When that is done, you simply click on the view mode to toggle between 2D and 3D modes.

What if I don't use a map at all? Will this support theater of the mind style play?

Yes! This was my original impetus for developing the mode. In planning for that, it turned out that it also supports modules that already have good maps. In some ways this made it more complicated, and in other ways it made it easier. We plan to support it with additional features that let you quickly generate a scene with some NPCs and players in it when you don't have a map at all. Essentially, these automation functions will build a quick and basic map by painting some graphics on the map floor and auto-positioning NPCs and players to save GM time.

Can I still use 2D mode if I don't like this feature?

Sure. There is a toggle to switch modes. For now, we are undecided if we want the GM to control that toggle exclusively or if we want it to be a per-user toggle. Testing and feedback from our community will help us make that determination.

What are some other future plans for this feature?

We want to support props, terrain, and other objects rendered into the 3D space that are not NPCs. We still need to finalize the UI and data retention for these objects, but it is on our roadmap.

We also want to start looking (probably much later in 2024) into other 3D assets. Perhaps we can allow for full 3D content, walls that extend up from the floor, 3d special Fx, and maybe more.

Sorry for the repost, but I wanted to restart this conversation in a more centralized space with some more context surrounding it's release.

How will you ensure it’s not a memory hog bearing in mind the current FG build can slow down in game pretty quickly with a few assets on the map.

Drawing images, even in 3D space is very easy for Unity 3D to do. Any sluggishness you are experiencing within FGU in the current version is most likely related to all the implementations of RPG rules calculations to determine LOS and visibility within the 2D space. Work on improving and optimizing that will continue separate from here, but will benefit both modes. This will also have a toggle option, so you will be able to stay in 2D mode if you prefer. We suspect you won't see any difference in performance between the two modes.

Very nice! Initially (as of an hour ago) I was thinking this wasn't going to be much of a use case for me. But I'm thinking it just might be more fun than I was thinking.

To comment a little; I do think it should be a per player mode toggle. Some folks are going to have distinctly different preferences and if the calculations are done locally, independent modes would not tax the server/host with any additional computations. I can imagine a lot of challenges around LOS, but I'm sure you will explore and address those are you get there. Good luck ;)

I like it!

I'm curious to see how creatures in-flight would appear

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Originally Posted by Tooting Dog

I'm curious to see how creatures in-flight would appear

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Good question! I assume any token with an elevation would be shown an appropriate distance above the base image. Not sure what would happen with negative heights :O Or if their would be some sort of shadow, silver string, or tether to indicate where on the base image they are above.

I'd put my penny's worth in for this being a per-user toggle as well.

I don't think I will like it as the GM, for example - I think I will want to have the complete overview as I do now.

But as a player I might want the greater immersion that it brings, and I might want it in some situations and not in others. NPC conversations at a party - brilliant, will bring an almost visual-novel like sensibility to those scenes and a big improvement on a flat map with a big grid and consequently big tokens as now. Being the barbarian stuck into an intense combat - great. Being more of an area control/buff/commander character - probably would favour the ability to have the 2D top-down overview especially in combat.

There's a human being brain processing power limit at work as well as Unity's rendering and I can see it being quite different for different use cases and configurations, too. Some of my players play via a laptop in a hotel room sometimes and for these people screen real estate is at a desperate premium - I just don't think they will have the real estate to make the 2.5D a pleasant experience. They need to be able to see where they are and navigate and target foes efficiently with as little on-screen information as possible, because pixels are precious. Whereas some of us are on multiple monitors and can devote a large number of pixels to appreciate the immersion, and the hell with efficient transmission of information.

If it is at all feasible to do from a performance point of view, I really think there are many reasons why one might want to allow this to be per-user; the only one I can really see as valid for it not to be is so the GM controls the view and synchronises when everyone switches. But there's a good reason why we don't lock all players viewport on the map to the GM's view, and I think this is just an extension of that. Each player is going to have different needs - and different preferences - for what they look at through the course of the game. So I don't see much sense in locking them into the 2.5D mode. Or, more to the point, locking them out of 2.5D mode if that's what they prefer because I as the GM want to be having the traditional top-down map view where I can see everything, including the hidden foes behind the doors and stuff that's in the darkness and so on.

Cheers, Hywel

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Originally Posted by Tooting Dog

I'm curious to see how creatures in-flight would appear

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Our meta-data has an option to define the floor space and an offset. For flyers, we make them "float". Elevation will also move them up or down.

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Originally Posted by HywelPhillips

I'd put my penny's worth in for this being a per-user toggle as well.

I don't think I will like it as the GM, for example - I think I will want to have the complete overview as I do now.

But as a player I might want the greater immersion that it brings, and I might want it in some situations and not in others. NPC conversations at a party - brilliant, will bring an almost visual-novel like sensibility to those scenes and a big improvement on a flat map with a big grid and consequently big tokens as now. Being the barbarian stuck into an intense combat - great. Being more of an area control/buff/commander character - probably would favour the ability to have the 2D top-down overview especially in combat.

There's a human being brain processing power limit at work as well as Unity's rendering and I can see it being quite different for different use cases and configurations, too. Some of my players play via a laptop in a hotel room sometimes and for these people screen real estate is at a desperate premium - I just don't think they will have the real estate to make the 2.5D a pleasant experience. They need to be able to see where they are and navigate and target foes efficiently with as little on-screen information as possible, because pixels are precious. Whereas some of us are on multiple monitors and can devote a large number of pixels to appreciate the immersion, and the hell with efficient transmission of information.

If it is at all feasible to do from a performance point of view, I really think there are many reasons why one might want to allow this to be per-user; the only one I can really see as valid for it not to be is so the GM controls the view and synchronises when everyone switches. But there's a good reason why we don't lock all players viewport on the map to the GM's view, and I think this is just an extension of that. Each player is going to have different needs - and different preferences - for what they look at through the course of the game. So I don't see much sense in locking them into the 2.5D mode. Or, more to the point, locking them out of 2.5D mode if that's what they prefer because I as the GM want to be having the traditional top-down map view where I can see everything, including the hidden foes behind the doors and stuff that's in the darkness and so on.

Cheers, Hywel

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This is very similar to our internal discussions and why we built it to be a per-user toggle in our first iteration. Some of the other ruleset level changes we are working on will also reduce the need for some other windows that players have typically needed to leave open in the past, such as the Combat Tracker.

What is the performance impact of this new feature? I have harder and harder time to convince people to run Unity and performance is one of the reasons.

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Originally Posted by Valyar

What is the performance impact of this new feature? I have harder and harder time to convince people to run Unity and performance is one of the reasons.

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Refer to post #4.

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Originally Posted by Valyar

What is the performance impact of this new feature? I have harder and harder time to convince people to run Unity and performance is one of the reasons.

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Addressed this in posts on the first page.

Typical recommendations apply, keep maps within recommended guidelines and draw LOS with as few segments as possible. Don't run 134 active extensions and 500+ modules like a user who sent in a support request over the weekend. Out of the box with FGU and provided content, we expect performance to be good. User-created content and community dev extensions are up to the user to manage and determine how they work within their system, and that of the players.

This certainly seems interesting and I'm hoping I can find use cases for it.

I recommend robust options for this.

GM can have the feature show as an available option for GM only/GM and Players/None (to prevent accidental toggles when if no plans to be used)
GM toggle force player view to 2D (on/off) (per map basis) (and global basis??)
GM toggle force player view to 3D (on/off) (per map basis) (and global basis??)

Assuming not actually going full 3D models for everything.... it could be neat to have an elevation assigned to each layer of an image. This would allow "stacking" flat images and specifying the space between floors.

Maybe player view defaults to whatever elevation their token is on but view can be shifted up/down.

For example in the layers panel, each layer would have an elevation field.

Example based on 5' square grid:

(100) Ambient Light - Sunlight
(40) Rooftop
(37) Hanging Chandelier (lighting effect)
(30) 3rd Floor Map
(20) 2nd Floor Map
(10) 1st Floor Map
(00) Ground Floor Map
(-10) Basement Map


Maybe a toggle to "flip" a flat image in the 3D space (to create the ceiling that is the bottom of a floor)

Any videos of how this looks in a room or hallway? Do you see walls?

Only videos so far are the ones in the first post. No terrain, ie walls etc, have been shown.

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Originally Posted by Tooting Dog

Any videos of how this looks in a room or hallway? Do you see walls?

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Walls are a "perhaps" in the future. See the last paragraph of post #1.

Currently walls are simply drawn on the floor. If a wall blocks your LOS, then you only see up to the wall on the floor. It will be black beyond that point.

As we are right at the beggining of '24 any peek at when in the year we will get this ?

We are shooting for Q1 into the Test channel, assuming we can get a few key camera controls set up by then.

This will be really interesting. I'm surely make good use.

The rocketvaultgames is a good idea that does not look to complicated.

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Assuming not actually going full 3D models for everything.... it could be neat to have an elevation assigned to each layer of an image. This would allow "stacking" flat images and specifying the space between floors.

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Also, for future rendering of the terrain, maybe a normal map instead of a complete 3d rendering would suffice. I guess this would add some shadows and make the appearance better without the need of a full 3D texture.

Why not both? The DM should have the ability to control this feature in their game. I would like a DM master switch to turn the feature on/off and then a Player switch so they work with their preferred view, if enabled.

Our current thinking is to let the user decide how they want to view the map (whether top-down or camera-based) using a toggle to let them change their view mode. I'm not sure what is gained by having a toggle that forces a view mode, since the actual graphics/data displayed on the image are the same in both view modes, just displayed slightly differently. (i.e. same tokens visible, same line-of-sight/lighting, same pointers visible, etc.) Plus, it would require extra time to develop the feature and APIs to drive forced view modes. This would not be a major project, but not trivial either. Most likely, initially, we will not do forced view modes, and focus on individual user control of their own view mode preference.

Regards,
JPG

Makes sense. I just wanted to throw it out there to maybe keep that avenue open for the future without inadvertently making it hard/impossible down the road.

My thinking was it might be helpful for the GM to with 1 click have every player see the same 3d view and then revert to each player's previous view.

I still think it would be beneficial upfront to be able to activate/deactivate this feature completely for all players from the GM's side.

What is the advantage of having the GM be able to force block the feature for players completely?
Also, one of the complications is that then we have to have a global toggle as well as an individual image toggle for forcing.

Regards,
JPG

My thought is that if the GM doesn't want the 3d view to be available, the players won't ask about it, and the players/gm won't accidentally click on it if it isn't there.

There are times when FGU lags (autosave, or other reasons) and a mouse click is registered in an unintended location. This would be one less thing to click inadvertently or clutter limited real estate if it wasn't planned on being used.

There have been a few time's I've toggled off LOS mid-session having no intention to do so, revealing the whole map.

Definitely not crucial, maybe not worth developing, but I wanted to mention it.

Thanks for all you do!

I guess props and objects on the map to be viewed in 3D ( like a token) would have to have the same properties (PNG files if that is the format your using)? A tree token, for example. This looks great by the way!

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Originally Posted by Patou

I guess props and objects on the map to be viewed in 3D ( like a token) would have to have the same properties (PNG files if that is the format your using)? A tree token, for example. This looks great by the way!

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webp would be better than PNG, but yes, that would be the plan. This is what I did in early prototypes built outside of FGU. I used some of the trees and bushes and stuff that Josh Watmough has in our art packs and I thought they really added a lot.

Very Cool! I found that it did add a lot and gave the viewer a sense of perspective and depth. There is a lot one can do with this. Options are many!

You know what would be cool? If we could import arbitrary STLs of the type that I print on my resin printer, paint, and use on my physical tabletop....

Whether the GM has a force view ability or not, I'm thinking that it would be good to have some indicator or icon that shows which view each player is using. I could definitely see cases where I'd need to describe a situation/combat/trap slightly differently depending on if the player is in 2D or 2.5D mode. Maybe each player's portrait could be rendered like it would be in the 2.5D view? Or have some sort of icon on it?

Also, out of curiosity, will there be any lighting effects on the NPCs/items/etc in the 2.5D view? Thanks!

Agreed on the indicator. Maybe it's just a slight alteration to the mini-portraits on any given image being viewed by players. A bold color stroke or a semi-transparent "3D" over the portrait.

The switch could be something like the "lock token" button combined with the sync view. The GM sync view to bring every player to the same perspective, then he could "lock" the view, otherwise any player can just see as he wants.

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Originally Posted by fabiocm

The switch could be something like the "lock token" button combined with the sync view. The GM sync view to bring every player to the same perspective, then he could "lock" the view, otherwise any player can just see as he wants.

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Agreed on showing the view, and I also second having the DM be able to choose whether or not players get to switch views. There are times when I can see wanting a certain map to be viewed by my players in a particular way for immersion/atmosphere which would otherwise be experienced differently than I intended.

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Originally Posted by ddavison

What if I don't use a map at all? Will this support theater of the mind style play?

Yes! This was my original impetus for developing the mode.

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I guess my question there is... why/how would this 3d mode support theater of the mind?

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I'm generally 'meh' about this feature, it doesn't seem necessary, but I guess folks that are excited about it can use it.

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Originally Posted by Felderburg

I guess my question there is... why/how would this 3d mode support theater of the mind?

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I'm generally 'meh' about this feature, it doesn't seem necessary, but I guess folks that are excited about it can use it.

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Any map or any mode would support theatre of the mind - since by it's nature no map is required. As you can probably see from the videos in the first post it can show creatures and players in a 2.5d environment which would visually enhance any theatre of the mind experience.

I think that if you as a DM wish to share for example a 2.5D scene being able to view whatever scene you as the DM are currently looking at and then clicking "bring the character to scene button" on the map wether it is in 2D or 2.5D would be the same as it currently is... No?

Then if you could lock that scene so it stays present until you the DM are done with your explanation of the scene you could unlock it. At which point the players can view whatever as they were..

I think it will see good use in much the same way people show the actors in a visual novel.

Its going to be really nice for subsector maps, space range maps and stuff with planets and ships. This might be the first time I actually make a test environment once it hits test. :-) cool stuff.