How important to Community is a SmiteWorks store app to do Extensions?

Let me give some history on why I ask this of the community first. As some of you know about 3 weeks ago I had an extension deactivated in DMsG and put in a state of limbo after about 5 sales and 15 minutes. Within that thread it was mentioned by SmiteWorks that they were working on an store app that would allow support of .ext files (extensions/code).

My question to the community is - how important would having this be to you?

I always tell people that EXTENSIONS = RISK and this is 100% absolutely true. People can break FG code with an extension. FG changes can break an extension. Other extensions can (and will inevitably) conflict with other extensions - though this can be minimized with careful implementation.

Yet, given all that RISK, extensions are a vital part of the community. I am a firm believer that you should try to use RAW FG code before you try any extension. Then, if during that adventure, you find you need something to make things easier to manage the game - write an extension for yourself. If you cannot, or do not want to do this, then search for a free extension in the forums that fulfills that need. And only if you you can't resolve your need still, search for a paid extension.

People may ask why any extension is "paid for" as they should all be free. That's a valid point of view. I maintain a free one for the community in fact. But I know how much work that is. And I know how much work making an extension can be (350 hours for one of mine). I make my extensions for myself. And put them in DMsG for others if they feel they are worth paying for. And why is it paid? Because it's my choice to do so and I like seeing if someone considers it worth while.

But regardless of where you fall in the great philosophical debate of "paid" or "free" - this post is to gauge the communities interest in getting SmiteWorks to get the previously mentioned application (see link above) out there.

I'm obviously prejudiced in my opinion of wanting it as I wait in limbo with one of my extensions - trapped in "between" the powers that be in resolving its fate - so you should not really count my opinion. Give yours. And why. Pro or con is all fine.

I think SW should make major efforts to getting exts up on their new site to sell and update exts. This is such a hassle with exts and figuring out what the DMGSguild is doing.

I want SW to set up that app store very bad.
To me this is more important than even the light radius they are working on (which is crazy awesome).

On a scale of 1 (least) to 5 (critical) I value it;
1 for me personally. I use very few extensions. I have no problem keeping them updated as I need them or even knowing most of what's available (because I am so active on the forums).
3 for the community. Because most people are not so diligent keeping their extensions updated or even that they need to keep them updated, knowing what's available etc. It also will help reduce the number of posts on the forums and may provide an incentive for some people to use FG over other VTTs.

On that scale, it's a 1 for me as well. I use 1 extension during play (the one that records item attunements for 5E), and 1 more when building a module. But I can see the usefulness for the people who run more extensions. Though I think lighting is more important than extensions. YMMV

It will depend on how its implemented for me.

On that scale, I think its a 3-4 for me. As an extension author, I would certainly put any of my extensions posted here on the FG forums into the system so users can get the auto download, and I use a wide variety of extensions, so having at least some of them auto-update would be handy. But I dont generally have issues with keeping them up to date.

I would have to see what the tradeoffs were before posting any extensions for sale.

I value extensions. I would rate a SW store front for extensions/apps as a 4.
I am capable of making my own but would rather support SW.

We have one of our Sr Devs working on it full-time. He is making good progress but it is not likely to be ready for a reveal until January.

I use some extensions, but I have no problem updating them from the forums or whatever. I'd rate an extension store at 1 or 2, I guess.

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Originally Posted by ddavison

We have one of our Sr Devs working on it full-time. He is making good progress but it is not likely to be ready for a reveal until January.

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What is a "reveal" by the way?

I'll use this as a rough time frame to people who keep asking me when they can get the extension then. I seem to be the only one caught out by all this - which sort of sucks. But such is life.

Extensions are critical for me and I gladly paid for some of them. Building a marketplace for Extensions is critical, specially if DMs Guild isn't worried on equal treatment of developers.

As an Idea, and I've seen people doing this on another plaform is not only setting up a platform for donations, but I've seen some people going for Patreons to sell extensions on another VTT. And I'll be honest with you, I completely agree with people being able to sell their code within a platform, but I noticed that not only me but many people prefer not to feel enforced to pay, so we just spend the most when something is given for free first. I've spent way more money on games that are free than paid ones in my life. There are some developers here that have done so much for the community that I always feel like buying them a coffee.

I personally only use a couple of extensions, and they mainly just change the look of Fantasy Grounds. That being said, there are some crazy good extensions available here in the forums, and this will be a great way of letting others find them quicker/easier.

This community member thinks it is a great idea. Hopefully when implemented any previously bought dmg's ext will carry over without a second purchase. :-)

A reveal most likely means Doug leaking pics like he did for the lighting we're working on. I will confirm that we have one of our developers working on this almost full-time.

To start with, we will most likely only be supporting "free" extensions. The idea is that we will work all the kinks in providing a UI for users to manage their community forge "subscriptions", as well as the infrastructure in the updater to deliver all those subscriptions. Once we have that under control, we plan to move forward with a monetization system to allow community content authors to sell content access; as well as accept donations (and maybe even patronage subscriptions eventually).

Regards,
JPG

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Originally Posted by Moon Wizard

A reveal most likely means Doug leaking pics like he did for the lighting we're working on. I will confirm that we have one of our developers working on this almost full-time.

To start with, we will most likely only be supporting "free" extensions. The idea is that we will work all the kinks in providing a UI for users to manage their community forge "subscriptions", as well as the infrastructure in the updater to deliver all those subscriptions. Once we have that under control, we plan to move forward with a monetization system to allow community content authors to sell content access; as well as accept donations (and maybe even patronage subscriptions eventually).

Regards,
JPG

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Sounds like I'll be in limbo a lot longer than January then. Thanks for the clarification - I appreciate it.

We're working as fast as we can; but we can't afford to put more than one senior developer on it with the size of our company and the fact that we're also working on vision/lighting in tandem.

Regards,
JPG

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Originally Posted by Moon Wizard

We're working as fast as we can; but we can't afford to put more than one senior developer on it with the size of our company and the fact that we're also working on vision/lighting in tandem.

Regards,
JPG

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I completely understand. Just my fate that DMsG wants me to move to DTRPG and SW does not. So stuck waiting for this on the sidelines. Don't get me wrong - I do understand. Just no fun being caught "in between" that rock and a hard place :)

Yeah, we heard some rumblings about this situation about a week before it happened; and had just started talking about moving priorities to address. We were a little shocked that the trigger was pulled so fast; so we've been trying to focus on re-prioritizing to get a solution,

Since the user subscription and the update system is a requirement to do the rest, that makes a good phase 1 release.

Regards,
JPG

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Originally Posted by Moon Wizard

A reveal most likely means Doug leaking pics like he did for the lighting we're working on.
Regards,
JPG

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This is priceless ;)

I don't care where they are, I just want them to auto-update.

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Originally Posted by JohnQPublic

I don't care where they are, I just want them to auto-update.

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Auto-update could turn into auto-break for extensions. Again - EXTENSIONS = RISK - and auto killing my app on game day with no easy way back would not be a good thing. Some extensions will NEVER be compatible I'm sure. And how would you know if FG changes or extension changes broke something?

Auto-update scares the living crap out of me when it comes to extensions. IMHO

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Originally Posted by SilentRuin

Auto-update could turn into auto-break for extensions. Again - EXTENSIONS = RISK - and auto killing my app on game day with no easy way back would not be a good thing. Some extensions will NEVER be compatible I'm sure. And how would you know if FG changes or extension changes broke something?

Auto-update scares the living crap out of me when it comes to extensions. IMHO

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I agree auto-update sounds great on the surface but in reality would probably be a nightmare. The only way I can envision it working is if all extension updates were disabled when FGU updates until either the developer or someone working for SW approved them to work with the new version. But even in that instance you would either have to rely on the word of the creator, or SW would have to dedicate a resource to testing extensions to ensure they are compatible with every FGU update. I don't think that would be a headache worth causing.

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Originally Posted by DevildrummerX

I agree auto-update sounds great on the surface but in reality would probably be a nightmare. The only way I can envision it working is if all extension updates were disabled when FGU updates until either the developer or someone working for SW approved them to work with the new version. But even in that instance you would either have to rely on the word of the creator, or SW would have to dedicate a resource to testing extensions to ensure they are compatible with every FGU update. I don't think that would be a headache worth causing.

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KISS rule. Extensions should only be updatable by user approving them. No way SW should be trapped into validating them. That would be insane given the nature of extensions. If your happy with version using should be able to keep it. In no way shape or form should the decision and acceptance of RISK be automated out of end users hands. Much like now except you can see an extension has a new version.

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Originally Posted by SilentRuin

KISS rule. Extensions should only be updatable by user approving them. No way SW should be trapped into validating them. That would be insane given the nature of extensions. If your happy with version using should be able to keep it. In no way shape or form should the decision and acceptance of RISK be automated out of end users hands. Much like now except you can see an extension has a new version.

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Yes, I agree this would be the best approach. Alert us in the updater that certain extensions have received updates and allow us to choose which if any we want to update.

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Originally Posted by SilentRuin

KISS rule. Extensions should only be updatable by user approving them. No way SW should be trapped into validating them. That would be insane given the nature of extensions. If your happy with version using should be able to keep it. In no way shape or form should the decision and acceptance of RISK be automated out of end users hands. Much like now except you can see an extension has a new version.

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Agreed.

2 and option to update single extensions on their own plus a single button to update all. No auto-update before clicking any buttons. Maybe add an option to auto-update. This would all be similar to how addons on CurseForge are handles (WoW etc).

I use a bunch of 5E extensions and it would be nice to get them in one place and have a streamlined notification and update procedure.

I agree with others that auto-updates are not such a good idea for extensions because they can break your game MUCH more easily than anything else. But still, knowing that the latest version is out and updateable would be useful for me.

Validation of extensions so they DON'T break would of course be much more valuable, but I strongly suspect outside the scope of what SW can provide or what extension authors could put up with.

Cheers, Hywel Phillips

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Originally Posted by HywelPhillips

I use a bunch of 5E extensions and it would be nice to get them in one place and have a streamlined notification and update procedure.

I agree with others that auto-updates are not such a good idea for extensions because they can break your game MUCH more easily than anything else. But still, knowing that the latest version is out and updateable would be useful for me.

Validation of extensions so they DON'T break would of course be much more valuable, but I strongly suspect outside the scope of what SW can provide or what extension authors could put up with.

Cheers, Hywel Phillips

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Extension developers should ALWAYS be responsible for making sure it works with FGU. But I agree making sure they work with OTHER extensions - is problematic. Personally I'll make the attempt if the other developer is willing to get with me - but short of that - not much one can do if they are stomping on shared code (not calling the older version before they do what they need to do - which is not always possible). But for sure extension developers need to keep pace with FGU updates and insure it works. Or I'd recommend that SW flag them as incompatible or something (because users notified them of it).

This is really the only thing you can do at this time. Ahhh the trials and tribulations of forked community development. :)

Windrunner

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Within that thread it was mentioned by SmiteWorks that they were working on an store app that would allow support of .ext files (extensions/code).

My question to the community is - how important would having this be to you?

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5 out of 5, it is very important for me to use extensions with Fantasy Grounds

I don’t care where or how but for the power users with larger player base its near essential.

Fantasy Grounds is missing features that other platforms have, some (not all) of these features are made available through extensions and there are Extensions features that are made by community members that should be built in after you used it.

P.S. since extensions are usually small, it's worth keeping previous versions in a depreciated folder or something. I do that by hand right now.

It would be useful if the automated tool did it too - so if something breaks you can go back to the previous version fairly trivially. The tool can automate it - keep the last "N" versions of the file, renaming to "filename_version_minus_1" or whatever. I've never actually had to roll back to a previous version, but it's pretty painless for an automated tool to facilitate it should it be necessary.

Cheers, Hywel

Well in the interest of full disclosure - I've received the following message from DMsG:

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Wizards of the Coast has clarified for us the kinds of Fantasy Grounds files it approves for DMsGuild. The file type itself is not a concern, but the function of the extension could potentially be in breach of the community content guidelines.

We now have the following guidelines:

If the extension combines content supplemental to a product specifically designed for use with Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition rules and/or uses Wizards of the Coast IP that is licensed for use on DMsGuild, then it is approved to stay on our platform.

If an extension is a general update or alteration to the Fantasy Grounds platform itself, then it will be removed from sale on Dungeon Masters Guild.

With the above in mind, unfortunately, we have found that the following titles of yours must be removed from DMsGuild.

Combat Groups Extension (Fantasy Grounds Unity)
Generic Actions Extension (Fantasy Grounds Unity)
Equipped Effects Extension (Fantasy Grounds Unity)
Map Parcel Extension (Fantasy Grounds Unity)

Ideally, we can help transition these files over to a new location on our DriveThruRPG sister site. We have sent a list of all titles removed from DMsGuild directly to Fantasy Grounds for their consideration; assuming they approve, we can then move your product over to DriveThruRPG and reactivate it for sale there.

They will be in contact with you should they decide to allow your product.

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I'm pretty sure SW has answered the DTRPG question here - but I suppose I will get a reverification soon.

We just received the note from DMsGuild today with a list of all the extensions that would be affected. It affects 8 community content creators and 36 extensions.

I asked when they needed to be removed and asked if it was possible to delay the removal until the start of the new year at the earliest. I got a quick response back that they were already deactivated from sale but were still available to customers who purchased them. They were going to investigate whether or not they could be turned back on to allow for sales until a later date.

We (SmiteWorks) are working on building out a new system that allows these to be housed and sold. This is the FG Forge. Steven is still working on building this. He has made good progress but is not ready for it yet to be deployed. If we decide to do something different, such as allowing these to be sold on DTRPG, then we will contact those developers directly to discuss their options. Any new extensions would need to wait until the FG Forge is up and running before they could be sold. Distribution of free extensions on the forums is still allowed.

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Originally Posted by ddavison

We just received the note from DMsGuild today with a list of all the extensions that would be affected. It affects 8 community content creators and 36 extensions.

I asked when they needed to be removed and asked if it was possible to delay the removal until the start of the new year at the earliest. I got a quick response back that they were already deactivated from sale but were still available to customers who purchased them. They were going to investigate whether or not they could be turned back on to allow for sales until a later date.

We (SmiteWorks) is working on building out a new system that allows these to be housed and sold. This is the FG Forge. Steven is still working on building this. He has made good progress but is not ready for it yet to be deployed. If we decide to do something different, such as allowing these to be sold on DTRPG, then we will contact those developers directly to discuss their options. Any new extensions would need to wait until the FG Forge is up and running before they could be sold. Distribution of free extensions on the forums is still allowed.

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Thanks for quick reply. Will wait to see where the stuff can go and when - as I do this as a hobby and not to make a living - I'm probably not effected as much as the others. Just the messenger - don't shoot me :)

Thanks for the info. I was one of them that had most of mine pulled. only 3 of mine are still remaining and I truly do not understand their logic for what got pulled and what was allowed to stay.

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Originally Posted by mattekure

Thanks for the info. I was one of them that had most of mine pulled. only 3 of mine are still remaining and I truly do not understand their logic for what got pulled and what was allowed to stay.

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I had one of mine left - but I'm asking now if that was an oversight or it really was valid. Personally I want them to all go to the same place - whereever that may be - as a group. I only plan on existing at one spot - preferably SW site. But it's not clear on what stopgap will be in place till then - if any - as it depends on multiple parties. Also, glad to hear it was not just me :) Not that I'm happy it happened to you :(

Yeah, it happened to all of us that published with Team Twohy. It just took a little bit I guess for them to review. I would expect more rounds of cuts. the 3 they left of mine dont make much sense, but I am not about to start questioning. Like the rest of us, its just a waiting game until a viable alternative comes along.

Guess I need to update everything but polymorphism to "The sales for this product in DMsG may soon be deactivated per this post - will let you know when that happens and when it finds a new home. "
And I verified with Jack at DMsG that for whatever reason, Polymorphism is still allowed in DMsG. So its still up.

As I understand it, if it is connected to D&D (i.e. a spell like polymorph) they can justify it. However, if they feel it is not related to D&D, they may have to remove it. It's possible, I think, that a case could be argued on some of the extensions they want to remove. If it really is connected to D&D 5e, it should be allowed to stay. One possible solution is to rework some of the extensions and modules so that they ARE compliant in their relation to D&D, even if they have options that allow it to be used outside of D&D. Am I making sense? Not sure.

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Originally Posted by similarly

As I understand it, if it is connected to D&D (i.e. a spell like polymorph) they can justify it. However, if they feel it is not related to D&D, they may have to remove it. It's possible, I think, that a case could be argued on some of the extensions they want to remove. If it really is connected to D&D 5e, it should be allowed to stay. One possible solution is to rework some of the extensions and modules so that they ARE compliant in their relation to D&D, even if they have options that allow it to be used outside of D&D. Am I making sense? Not sure.

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It's highly subjective and basically it's there call. I can see why combat groups, equipped effects, and map parcel are considered more code support for FGU than purely 5E - but have asked why generic actions was included in that list (as its purely buttons in support of specific PHB 5E page numbers - actions).

Gist is - I'm sure you can try and trick your way into making these extensions look more tied to 5E (even though all mine were written to support my own games and I only play 5E), but its a game I'm not willing to play.

Equipped Effects and Map Parcel both support more rulesets than 5E and combat groups could support more than 5E with a few specific .xml additions for the other rulesets - which someday I might want to do. So those are for sure fair game to axe.