3d seems like a great idea until you spend 40+ hours working on a map for a game with your players and they spend a total of 35 minutes of game time on it and will never be back.
3d seems like a great idea until you spend 40+ hours working on a map for a game with your players and they spend a total of 35 minutes of game time on it and will never be back.
But you can use it elseware or tweak and use it again.
The preview that Carl did on Table Top Connect showed a very rapid dungeon deployment - but of course that would not stop people from spending much more time on it - nor players bypassing it!Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnD
OR you could just focus on features that a) enable you to play with friends/players all over the world and b) help you reduce the overhead on bookkeeping and calculations so you can concentrate on what roLEplaying really is about ;-).Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnD
Oh right, that's what FG has been doing all along! :D
AstraSyneri.. For The Win!Quote:
Originally Posted by AstaSyneri
If this is indeed true then it would appear that the worst way to purchase Pathfinder material will be via Fantasy Grounds on Steam. You are paying for the copy of the pdf but not getting an actual copy where all other sources you get the pdf and the digital content. If they do end up implementing the same system on the FG store as everyone else and the Steam version is different I certainly wouldn't want to be in charge of customer satisfaction results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galymyr
The only way I see them doing this (due to the Steam restrictions) is all purchases on Steam come with a way to claim a copy of the pdf also.
What he's getting at is that Steam throws a wrench into Paizo's digital licensing, so the end result is that Fantasy Grounds is "grandfathered in" and will not require a verification of the PDF owned from your Paizo account in order to purchase/use Pathfinder DLC here on Fantasy Grounds (regardless if you get it from Steam or the FG Store). It sounds like Paizo will set the prices, just like WotC sets the prices of the 5E DLC.
Why don't we just wait and see? Hasn't all this speculation run its course?
Of course not, Lord Entrails - this is the internet. Speculation never runs its course!
To put some context on it... think about it this way.
Tomorrow you buy the content from FG and you are happy.
The next week a new company releases a must have digital tool that would supplement your experience in FG or replace it completely. They adhere to the same licensing policy that everyone else is apparently adhering to. You go to buy the content and you are faced with two prices. The price is cheaper should you own the PDF. The price is more expensive if you don't.
Now you are sitting here wondering why your full cost FG purchase didn't give you personally the rights (ownership of the pdf) to purchase the cheaper option. You have already paid for it after all. All the other users who have come from other digitals tools are talking about how good the Paizo policy is because they only had to buy the pdf once and now get a discount on everything else.
Wasnt this your original post?Quote:
Originally Posted by daplunk
They are different products for different markets.Quote:
If FG isn't bound by this restriction there's going to be an obscene uproar.
Fantasy Grounds comes with the best and most featured pathfinder ruleset available - for nix.
All things have their merits and their short comings.
Correct and there is absolutely a camp of people who are not impressed with Paizo's new policy. They are the people who have purchased physical books over pdf's and have started using digital tools to supplement their experience. It's not a happy camp.
The more we read between the lines by looking at all the various offerings that are about to hit the market though it would appear there could be another unhappy camp ready to form?
I'm just speculating here but based on the detail provided by the dev's here and elsewhere; it would appear that you will end up paying the cost of the pdf in your purchase and not get a copy of it. Which is fine if all you use now and all you plan to use in the future is Fantasy Grounds. But ownership of the pdf will get you discounts should you need to purchase the same content in other market places and therefore I feel it's a question that should be answered.
Honestly I could care less about Pathfinder... but Starfinder is coming and a sensible man would likely put money on Paizo setting up a framework now for a model that will be replicated in the future.
There will be plenty of people that wont pay for Pathfinder books on FG just like they wont pay for 5e books on FG - but the 5e experience suggests that there will be plenty of people happy to pay for someone else having done the work. At no stage has Smiteworks suggested any pricing other than MSRP so I doubt there will be too many surprises.
There is a big chunk of OGL stuff that will still be available and the tools to implement stuff direct into FG are improving all the time. I dont see where anyone misses out so I dont see where or why people will need to be unhappy.
People can only spend their money once and for some its a matter of watching every cent whilst for others who have a disposable income it will be more likely a convenience spend and then there is everything in between.
I am really puzzled why there is so much wondering about the license when Doug is the guy that consistently cracked open licenses and markets that others have not. A FG adventure is always as automated and as good an experience as possible. Why not wait and see and if you prefer the other prices/model offered, look at the other choices? Otherwise there is nothing really to discuss.
Axe grinding and doom saying.
Put very simply, we know exactly what we will be getting from fantasy grounds and what the maximum price and benefits will entail... there is no questioning it at the moment they have been very clear. It is the same model they used for 5e.
People who DO expect some sort of compensation for having a pathfinder physical book are out of luck (spoken from the perspective of someone who owns every hardcover paizo have released to do with pathfinder and a tiny number of pdfs)
The books weren't made with redemption methods in place and it is VERY hard to implement something of the like in retrospect. Paizo needs to do right by their own business and to do this they need to charge money for content.
The complaints on the Realmworks forum are unreasonable and realistically made by a minority.
On a happy note, I shall be buying the complete package in the same way I have for 5e, and already know two friends who will do so as well.
The licensing agreement and the distribution of Pazio/PDF's will be what it will be. One way of distributing PDF content would be to perform something as a part of the FG update as this is common regardless of where the item was purchased from (Steam or FG).
For example the FG upgrade process could do one of two things:
(1) Download a PDF with signed/coded to the FG folder structure.
(2) Provide a code which is a one time use on the Paizo store to grant you the PDF for free or discounted.
So its all possible from a software perspective - its just licensing and the process that will limit what is possible.
I do not see anyway of offering a redemption for purchased physical books - moving forward physical books could have a redeemable voucher but I can not see Paizo doing that.
I would say your first sentence about Steam is correct. However, don't panic just yet because the developers are still looking at ways to make this a non issue for their customers. ddavison mentioned they were looking into a discount if you purchase from the FG store (and own the official .pdf on Paizo). I also thought I read that the content may be able to be purchased on the Paizo web store, or maybe i'm confusing Pathfinder with 5E. Either way buying FG content from either the FG store or Paizo store would eliminate the Steam problem and link your FG account with your Paizo account giving you credit for all your purchases elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by daplunk
The important thing for us to do as customers is explain just how important this is to us. Everyone has their own unique gaming situation. My situation will have me using both Fantasy Grounds (VTT) and Realm Works (Campaign Management) for online play, and Realm Works for my in person play. Since I'm taking advantage of multiple platforms the ability to link all of my .pdf's is very important to me and if FG cannot offer that then I'll move to a competitor. Even though FG may be the best, I'm not going to buy content from them that doesn't include access to the .pdf on all other platforms when that is exactly what their competition is able to offer me. All the .pdf's for an adventure path cost $108, that is not an insignificant amount of money considering that I wouldn't be paying that on any other virtual platform.
For those of you who exclusively use Fantasy Grounds for all your Pathfinder play, you could care less about this. But please don't dismiss the concerns of gamers who will be impacted by this and want to encourage the devs to continue to work toward a solution so we can enjoy this product the same as you.
I was one of the one's who was voicing my, as you aptly put it unreasonable displeasure with this almost instantly. I think it was more sticker shock than anything since I own every hardcover. I'm over it now and ready to spend more money :DQuote:
Originally Posted by lostsanityreturned
Galymyr, what I believe you mean is that you will turn elsewhere for your VTT because the price will be cheaper, since you will already obviously have the PDF through Realmworks (or if you already own it).
Damned, this is the point, and your notion that people will pay whatever they charge because of the superiority of FG is not true the higher that price is, especially if there is a competitor selling similar content for less (because there are some who must watch their coin so closely that the difference matters, regardless of how superior FG is to the other VTTs. The continued existence of those other VTTs kind of proves the point).
I think SW is getting ripped off here. RW (which is the only other thing I watch because I use it, like Galmyr says) gets to sell at a reduced price relative to MSRP for those who already own the PDFs (yes, the hard copy folks get screwed, but that is a weakness of the medium and selling mechanisms, because Paizo could, if it wanted, offer reduced price to anyone who had bought the hard copy from them). Or, if they do pay MSRP, they get the PDF in addition to the content. There are countless folks on here who actively reference the PDFs during their games, even with FG running (though I suspect that will diminish once professional content is available), so PDFs are not totally worthless to many active FG users.
As to the "just wait and see what happens" mindset, well, it appears we know everything there is to know about this. There is no reason to anticipate that the announced license mechanisms on either side will change from what they have both very openly declared to be their arrangements. UNLESS THEY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE WE VOICE OUR OPINIONS.
And talking about 5e is kind of non sequitur because they don't have PDFs, as I understand it (I gave up on WOTC when they did the disastrous 4e - D&D built like a video game for computer usage which never materialized).
Now, at the point that SW says knock it off because we have made up our minds and have taken our users' concerns into account ... then we should stop, but until then, we need to voice our opinions.
Personally, I am at the point in life where I have the income to handle whatever comes, but that is because my job sucks and I spend a great deal of my time away from the office working rather than doing my hobby. At some point, I am going to get fed up with that and permanently retire. At that point, I will care very much about the mechanism SW uses for its products.
Thats a rather serious misquote of anything Ive said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bidmaron
Sorry I misunderstood, damned. No flame wars. I apologize for my misunderstanding.
Does the licensing agreement with Paizo also cover the Starfinder product line?Quote:
Originally Posted by daplunk
We also have a license for Starfinder. I don't have an ETA for when we will be ready for release since it will need its own ruleset.
Thanks, Doug. I was hoping you'd reply. Given that it's not due to roll until August, I wouldn't expect an ETA yet. But, I am hopeful that Paizo would have a lot of interest in rolling out VTT versions of that product set at the get-go.
Any luck tracking down the issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by ddavison
Look at the update list the last week for the new test version. You'll see the progress in steps.
I'm new here and have no idea what you just said. Can you point me in the right direction? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickademus
But of course. This thread has all the updates for the new version now being tested. Starting at the post I linked, you can see the speed improvements for adding NPCs to the Combat Tracker. That is the issue that was mentioned by Mr. Davison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galymyr
Thank you! Does this apply to the Pathfinder issue since it was listed under CoreRPG? They seem to list every rule set for each particular fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickademus
When stuff is denoted as [CoreRPG] it applies to those rulesets layered off that which includes 5e, 4e, 3.5e, PF, Numenera, Call of Cthulhu, Castles & Crusades, MoreCore and more...Quote:
Originally Posted by Galymyr
If its labeled as anything else it only applies to that ruleset.
still no ETA on this stuff?
Without meaning to be condescending... if you didnt see an ETA there isnt an ETA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhok
Everything will happen when its ready to happen.
well they said January and my group had a game set up with characters made now its almost march and not a single ap is in the store. we had plans set around this, I don't feel that its asking too much for a current ETA.
They also said the following...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhok
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddavison
I dont think they are in a position to give a firm ETA just yet and giving another ETA that gets missed wont make anyone any happier...Quote:
Originally Posted by ddavison
Anyway they are only my views :) You might get lucky...
What I want to know is, why isn't We Be Goblins! in the first batch of official products!
The first batch of products is mostly all approved and ready to go, but we haven't been given a firm ETA yet for release. We will post again once we know for certain.
Oh you tease. That promotional e-mail.....
For those who haven't signed up for the Newsletter yet... I think this link will work.
https://us13.campaign-archive2.com/?...&id=2160ab4be1
A good time to be a Pathfinder player. Makes me want to learn to play just to use all these new toys!