Just got a mail from DMsG telling me they are pulling all extensions for sale out

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Originally Posted by ddavison

Hey folks,

Sorry I didn't have a chance to chime in earlier. I got pulled away for some person items this afternoon and I'm just now getting back to my desk.

What prompted this:
Story Templates Pro was developed by a community developer and it looked quite nice. We (SmiteWorks) started talking with the developer about the potential of us just buying the rights to include this automatically for all FG users. When we found out that it was already published at DMsGuild, we had to back out from the offer due to licensing constraints at DMsG. The STP extension author then reached out to DMG and asked if they could get permission to remove it from DMG in order to renew talks with us about incorporating it within FG. DMG ran it up the flag-pole to WOTC to seek permission for this one product. WOTC asked us what extensions were and we said that they were basically extra code that enhances functionality within Fantasy Grounds, but which are often paired with content or used to empower content. We told them that we would be interested in buying this from the author if WOTC would be willing to waive their rights for it on DMsGuild. WOTC spoke internally about it and decided that that sort of content (i.e. code and not content) should have never been a part of DMG to begin with. They asked DMG to remove that content for the Story Template Pro and said that we would be free to work out whatever deal we had in mind with that author. They further requested the other changes at DMG on other content.

As far as I know, the DMsGuild agreement is terminated and restrictions from that agreement are no longer in force. The bad part is that SmiteWorks as a general rule does not allow anyone to publish content for Fantasy Grounds without either A) a Publisher Agreement or B) DMsGuild agreement. Both of these remain for .mod style content, but .ext files are not typically something we offered in A and they are no longer supported in B. This is likely going to require another solution.

It's all a bit sudden and we haven't had a chance to fully react and plan for a suitable solution. The one thing we've spoken about previously was that we intended to make something called a Fantasy Grounds Forge, where creators could post their own creations (no copyright protected content) and list it for sale, for free, etc. Users could subscribe to those creations and they would get updated alongside normal FG updates. I built an early prototype and the start of a database to do this about a year ago but it's been on the back-burner. John and I spoke just an hour ago about maybe spinning up Steven Melton (our network and installer dev) to finish this out and bring it to production level. If we did that, we would most likely have the same 50% royalty for any content published through that interface.

We would need to divert resources over to this and that means it will cost us to do this. It's something I've kind of wanted to have in place for a while, though, so we are really just moving it up in the schedule to fill a need. It's kind of a crappy way to have it roll out, but on the plus side I think the final result will be a much smoother experience for creators and users.

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It seems there is a lot of confusion on the part of creators on what to do next. Do I find out if I have to move everything over to DTRPG in the hopes the comments and reviews can be saved? Do I hold out for some less drastic "kill them all" policy by WOTC? Or do I hold out for this new FG portal and if it has the ability to split royalties and other things supported by DMsG?

Honestly, I still kind of feel my new Combat Groups extension is still the ONLY one effected by all this. As they have yet to deactivate any of my other extensions.

So glad to hear FG is going to move forward on this portal for sure.

Having said that - I can't say I'm pleased with the "unknown" factor on what to do next. For sure I'm not going to punish people who have bought my extensions by putting them out for free now. I'd rather do nothing than screw over people who supported my extensions early on.

So right now - my options appear to be - wait and see if there is any more clarity from FG and DMsG, because I absolutely never expect that sort of thing out of WOTC.

Shouldn't we be entitled to a refund from DMsG? I mean I bought something and now it's gone....

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Originally Posted by DM_BK

Shouldn't we be entitled to a refund from DMsG? I mean I bought something and now it's gone....

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Was not aware anything is gone - only deactivated so you can't buy something new.

And if they are gone (not going to know myself) then I'm still not seeing the point as you HAVE the extension you bought. Using mine still for sure. Nothing can take them away from me once I have them.

[Unless I don't use backups. But that would be on me.]

Good point.... hard to say if we will eventually no longer be able to download them again. I didn't get a chance to buy your last one...

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Originally Posted by DM_BK

Good point.... hard to say if we will eventually no longer be able to download them again. I didn't get a chance to buy your last one...

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Well the weird thing was it was up only about 15 min till it went down and had 3 sales. Now it has 5. I removed it out of the bundle I had out there because there must be some kind of bug with bundles and things they nuke from under it. For sure price was there and bundle was there with all 5 of my extensions including Combat Groups. Just now deleted it out of there. But makes me wonder what kind of utter hell they are creating over there when they deactivate something and its in a bundle and still shows up listed and part of the bundle price. Seems like they could be seriously messing things up for themselves and buyers. I worry about if they kill off any others and then the bundles still act like they are out there.

This is nuts and not well done.

Just posting my humble opinion so they can read all about it...
I don't understand how WoTC can shadow ban extensions to a program they do not author. If the extensions violated content, perhaps, but ones that are designed to enhance functionality of the program (not under authorship, maintenance, or control of WoTC), I just don't see it. Unless SmiteWorks was somehow stupid enough to relinquish control of their product's development to a 3rd party... ???
But I do know this... I've spent thousands of dollars on FG, including additional content, over the years. If they are going to revoke my right to access those products, then they owe me a full refund for depriving my continued use of said product(s). I don't care if 'they' ultimately = SW, DMsGuild, or WoTC. That's between them to fight out. All I know is, I legally bought a product in good faith, and I am entitled to continued use...IMHO. I accept refunds in the form of cash only, NOT "store credit" -- for the record.
This is just one more way WoTC is continuing to drive the enjoyment of the hoby into the dirt. Good luck with that. I hear PF2 is a better product than 5E, anyway...
/end rant

Adding in a "Forge" functionality to the mix would be a HUGE bonus. Currently it is a real pain to try and locate changes for modules and extensions.

What I would like to see regarding this functionality is:

(1) A game system and a FGC/FGU version compatibility indicator that is easy to read/understand for each entry.

(2) Inclusion of mod/extension and maybe other files in the the system.

(3) A clear/easy method of searching for entries and the ability to link to the entries (URL?) from forums.

(4) Rules covering the submission of entries, in particular what is allowed/disallowed.

(5) The ability to cover content such as D&D propriety information (mind flayers/beholders/storylines) similar in a way the DM Guild website allows. I know there is a licensing issue potentially with this - one can hope though.

(6) The ability for submitters to "gift" paid for content to nominated users. I am thinking here of purchasers of content that will now disallowed on DM Guild to be gifted to some one who has already purchased an item, or for evaluation purposes in a review.

(7) Some controls should be in place for "abandoned" content. The ability for a content developer to transfer one or more of their content to other content developers and maintenance of FGC/FGU releases.

(8) An indicator to state that you have "Forge" content that needs updating. The ability to choose to upgrade one/some/all "Forge" content manually.

A couple of downsides of the inclusion of a "Forge" I can that a lot of the free mods will become paid for entries.... will there be much free content? I can also see this being for FGU only.

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Originally Posted by Lou Ciphor

Just posting my humble opinion so they can read all about it...
I've spent thousands of dollars on FG, including additional content, over the years. If they are going to revoke my right to access those products, then they owe me a full refund for depriving my continued use of said product(s). I don't care if 'they' ultimately = SW, DMsGuild, or WoTC. That's between them to fight out. All I know is, I legally bought a product in good faith, and I am entitled to continued use...IMHO. I accept refunds in the form of cash only, NOT "store credit" -- for the record.

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I have spent a reasonable amount with DM's Guild - but I suspect that WoTC are not that worried about the content of the FG extensions - but what it could lead to with other VTT systems start using DM's Guild. As their attention has been brought to these types of content they need to nip it in the bud before it turns into something more major than a few disgruntled customers (us) especially as DM's Guild content was never licensed to house this information. Disappointed - yes I am - but better now than another couple of years down the line.

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Originally Posted by Lou Ciphor

I hear PF2 is a better product than 5E, anyway...

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As a owner of both content - I would really entertain a discussion about the pro's and con's between both systems. I extensively run 5E but would consider looking at PF2. I like the simplicity of 5E, but love the way PF2 uses "feats" to create the characters. Unfortunately this thread is not the place for this discussion as I would not want to hijack it from the OP. If you do want to discuss the pros/cons between 5E and PF2 we could always open another thread?

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Originally Posted by ColinBuckler

As a owner of both content - I would really entertain a discussion about the pro's and con's between both systems. I extensively run 5E but would consider looking at PF2. I like the simplicity of 5E, but love the way PF2 uses "feats" to create the characters. Unfortunately this thread is not the place for this discussion as I would not want to hijack it from the OP. If you do want to discuss the pros/cons between 5E and PF2 we could always open another thread?

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Yes, please take such discussions to another thread.

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Originally Posted by Lou Ciphor

Just posting my humble opinion so they can read all about it...
I don't understand how WoTC can shadow ban extensions to a program they do not author. If the extensions violated content, perhaps, but ones that are designed to enhance functionality of the program (not under authorship, maintenance, or control of WoTC), I just don't see it. Unless SmiteWorks was somehow stupid enough to relinquish control of their product's development to a 3rd party... ???
But I do know this... I've spent thousands of dollars on FG, including additional content, over the years. If they are going to revoke my right to access those products, then they owe me a full refund for depriving my continued use of said product(s). I don't care if 'they' ultimately = SW, DMsGuild, or WoTC. That's between them to fight out. All I know is, I legally bought a product in good faith, and I am entitled to continued use...IMHO. I accept refunds in the form of cash only, NOT "store credit" -- for the record.
This is just one more way WoTC is continuing to drive the enjoyment of the hoby into the dirt. Good luck with that. I hear PF2 is a better product than 5E, anyway...
/end rant

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It sounds like maybe the "problem" might be simply that DMsGuild is for 5e content and some of the extensions are really just for fantasy grounds, and not exactly 5e. Maybe? Could be they don't have a problem with the extensions, but just with hosting them on DMsGuild. Again, Maybe?