18 months on : FG vs. Roll20 vs Foundry

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Originally Posted by LordEntrails

Running a business, and a software application is not so easy.

Your "Just hire 1 guy ..." As has been pointed out, they are looking to hire (but not for dice skins), but finding the right person is not easy. And hiring the wrong person can do more damage to the product and company than any value they add. Next, how many dice sins do you think they are going to sell? And at what price? Because I think if you dive into the economics, you will find a challenge not losing money on dice skins. Not that their are not high value opportunities, but they are already working on hiring for those things.

As for other comments about Unity being limitless, and such. No engine is limitless, they all have their shortcomings. As well, people should consider the complexities of software development. Had SmiteWorks just built FGU from the ground up and dropped the XML/LUA architecture etc. They would have then obsoleted ~1700 products in their store, and hundreds or thousands of community modules and extensions. Sure, maybe their would have been some way to convert the old format to the new format, but such a converter would have taken time to develop as well. And that whole process would have had it's own drawbacks and people wo would have thought it bad/negative.

In short, none of us know all the challenges faced in the development and deployment of FGU. And, second guessing decisions we are inadequately informed about that were made years ago is pointless. We might as well discuss water under the bridge. What we can do is to consider what FGU is today and the direction and manner the developers are going in. And then decide if it is the VTT that fits our needs. And if it is, then help with bug reports and voicing opinions on what is next. And if it's not the VTT of choice, then move on and go do the same for whatever option that is you chose.

On another note, if anyone sees recruiting in the FG forums for platforms other than FG, please report the post and the issue will be dealt with quickly.

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Lol, that sounds like my job. I was just saying the other day that for everything I finish, I find two more things that need to be done.

@Xyndonus, I DO see the value of both. I used to do strictly theater of the mind, but since coming to FGC and then FGU as it came out, I've spent a lot of time making maps, making images, etc., and it IS really nice. In my last game for example, I had a purely visual puzzle. I love the LOS and lighting and effects, and in my next game I hope to recruit players with good connections and good PCs (it's going to be a pre-requisite, I think).

For FGU, my advice would be:
Audio-video:
Rather than reinvent an integrated voice-video option, I would instead focus on improving coordination with existing platforms like discord. Discord can already connect an overlay on FGU so I can see who's talking.

Animated maps:
I think this should definitely be an OPTION. There are some awesome animated maps and animated map-makers out there. Seeing improvements would be great.

Import:
Improve import of VTT format maps (like from dungeondraft). Also, there are two new map makers, Dungeon Alchemist and soon Chronos Builder. I haven't tried importing from DA, but I do know it has a Fantasy Grounds export option.

Speed:
This is a priority for me. My last campaign was enormous, and it took about 5 min to load the campaign in FGU ... but that's mostly my fault. I have TOO many modules and extensions and maps and shared items. I need to be more efficient, but a little more help from FGU would help too.

Content:
I'd love to see new content for Call of Cthulhu. I totally understand that there have been some unforeseen and totally unavoidable delays with some new content, and am totally content to wait. I really DO understand, but from a purely ignorant customer perspective, I'm really excited for Masks of Nyarlathotep and Horror on the Orient Express. I'd also love to see more for Alien RPG.

Suggestions:
Not for Smiteworks, but for customers, I encourage everyone to vote in the idea informer app (https://fgapp.idea.informer.com/). I know Smiteworks takes that seriously, and our voices DO help.

FGU has flaws, but it's still the best fit for me.

I have run all these systems as well and will agree with everything you posted. Only thing, and for some reason I could never find a good explanation for it, but with Foundry my biggest issue is I was unable to run a game with more than 4 people without experiencing serious lag. I would have to constantly reboot the server and had to keep my sessions within a 2.5 hrs before it just gives up on me. Had this issue both running from home system as well as using one of their clouds services (The Forge). Came to FGU in September of this year and yet have not been disappointed with the system. Sure the UI is par at best but after spending sometime learning it, I found my ways to make it work.

Great stuff in these reviews and responses!

I've been running an in person 5e/homebrew game for a couple years and the only computer help I used was a virtual sound board. Recently someone donated an LCD to use as a digital table top. At first, I just loaded maps in photoshop and added grid and fog of war layers, then I would adjust the eraser size to match sight and click to delete from the fog of war layer as we went along. Not the most immersive, but it created a cool element of suspense as the maps were revealed.

Now I have a player from out of town. The first session went by alright just using facetime...but the remote players don't get a feel for the sound ambiance and effects at all.

So, to my question! I want to shift to a hybrid game, where mechanics are still pen and paper, but I have a VTT that just hosts the maps and sounds for the digital table top and the remote player (the remote player would still face time with their relative, but could also be logged into the VTT on another device to get a better map and sound experience than through the video chat).

Which of these three VTT do you guys recommend I wade into for that sort of hybrid set up?

Caveats:
-As the OP mentioned earlier, I'm one of those DMs who keeps a pretty significant cognitive load throughout the session, so ease of use (during the session. prep is no problem) on my end means a lot to me.

-The site we play at has a fair amount of jitter in their latency. I've notice bufferless streaming services can really struggle there. But if it runs with a 1 sec buffer or so it should be smooth.

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Originally Posted by Fahder

Great stuff in these reviews and responses!

I've been running an in person 5e/homebrew game for a couple years and the only computer help I used was a virtual sound board. Recently someone donated an LCD to use as a digital table top. At first, I just loaded maps in photoshop and added grid and fog of war layers, then I would adjust the eraser size to match sight and click to delete from the fog of war layer as we went along. Not the most immersive, but it created a cool element of suspense as the maps were revealed.

Now I have a player from out of town. The first session went by alright just using facetime...but the remote players don't get a feel for the sound ambiance and effects at all.

So, to my question! I want to shift to a hybrid game, where mechanics are still pen and paper, but I have a VTT that just hosts the maps and sounds for the digital table top and the remote player (the remote player would still face time with their relative, but could also be logged into the VTT on another device to get a better map and sound experience than through the video chat).

Which of these three VTT do you guys recommend I wade into for that sort of hybrid set up?

Caveats:
-As the OP mentioned earlier, I'm one of those DMs who keeps a pretty significant cognitive load throughout the session, so ease of use (during the session. prep is no problem) on my end means a lot to me.

-The site we play at has a fair amount of jitter in their latency. I've notice bufferless streaming services can really struggle there. But if it runs with a 1 sec buffer or so it should be smooth.

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Fantasy Grounds Unity, hands down.
Happy Holidays!

Because of?

Happy holidays! :o

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Originally Posted by Weissrolf

Happy holidays! :o

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Happy Holidays

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Originally Posted by Fahder

So, to my question! I want to shift to a hybrid game, where mechanics are still pen and paper, but I have a VTT that just hosts the maps and sounds for the digital table top and the remote player (the remote player would still face time with their relative, but could also be logged into the VTT on another device to get a better map and sound experience than through the video chat).

Which of these three VTT do you guys recommend I wade into for that sort of hybrid set up?

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I ran a hybrid game with 1 remote player and 3 in-person players, I posted about my setup in another post here: https://fantasygrounds.com/forums/sh...l=1#post603546

At the time, I used Roll20 at the Free tier (I hadn't tried Fantasy Grounds yet). I used Roll20 for battle maps, tokens (PC and NPC), handouts, and the remote player's character sheet - everything else was done with pen/paper at the table, physical dice, and I ran from physical copies of the 5E books (I didn't have any digital content). I used the built-in mask tools to handle fog of war on the battle maps, but later on in the campaign I did start paying to unlock Roll20's dynamic lightning features, which, unfortunately, I found to be extremely buggy at the time (a few years ago). I had also found that Roll20's performance really struggled as I added more content, but again this was over 2 years ago and it may have improved.

If I did this hybrid setup again I would use Fantasy Grounds, primarily because I already own it and I typically run the 5E adventures which I can buy adapted for Fantasy Grounds, so I don't need to do any of the work of importing the material manually. I would run the entire thing from within Fantasy Grounds (instead of using any physical books). Thinking back, this would definitely have reduced the load on the GM, flipping back and forth between books, etc. However, I'm not sure how I'd take advantage of FG's automation with in-person players. It's possible to have them roll physical dice and enter the rolls manually - but there is no way I would go through the hassle of this as GM, and I don't really see the in-person players wanting to do that either.

If you're only planning to use the VTT for maps, tokens, and fog of war you can probably get by with just the free tier of Roll20. If you're planning to have the VTT handle anything more than that (automation, adventure content, NPCs, spells, etc), then I'd recommend trying Fantasy Grounds (I have no experience with Foundry so I can't comment on that). You can always download the demo to test it out for your own setup to see if it'll work for you, and I believe there is also a 30-day refund policy.

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I want to shift to a hybrid game, where mechanics are still pen and paper, but I have a VTT that just hosts the maps and sounds for the digital table top and the remote player (the remote player would still face time with their relative, but could also be logged into the VTT on another device to get a better map and sound experience than through the video chat).

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I would not use any of those three for this specific scenario.
- For the map I would use a free and easy to use alternative: Owlbear Rodeo.
- I would push the music/sound via Voicemeeter, or tabletop audio, or RPGSounds... and use a dedicated chat software (Discord, Jitsi, etc...)

I use FGU all the time for managing "in person" sessions. I set up the adventure and DM it from one PC, and have 2-3 laptops connect as clients. We turn manual dice rolls on so the players can roll physical dice and enter the rolls. They love paper character sheets and making characters and it's pretty easy to translate those to FGU where I can keep track of everything - the automation it provides me is worth it (the combat tracker is sweet).

Sometimes we even have a friend connect from out of town.

It works very well, and I'll never go back to straight pen and paper.

i saw another thread that begins with the user saying they tried it and:

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We had connection issues. We had combat tracker glitches. We had token visibility issues. Targeting was a nightmare.

We knew there was limited automation and were perfectly happy with what was there, but it's SO much better in FantasyGrounds (especially with Diablobob's stuff).

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so i wanted to address it. let's break it down:


- If there were internet connection issues, but there are none in a regular multiplayer videogame or similar activity, you just didn't configure Foundry properly. it's very easy, but some users are clueless about portforwarding and other factors and might make mistakes or not do any configuration, which should be like 2 steps, then expect things to work.
badly configured antivirus software, and a myriad of things related to user error can, indeed, cause connection issues. shouldn't be a problem for any user that's able to handle computer basics. see, the thousands of users who are really not tech savvy and use foundry. some of which ask for help with setting up and then comment on how effortless it was.

- What Combat Tracker issues? how come nobody else in the entire community has these issues? again, it's a very simple feature to work with, but people trying to hammer a nail with a screwdriver often find it an issue.

- What token visibility issues? i would put my hands in fire this was due to very unnecessary user error. as the feature is extremely robust, proven and simple. now this leads me to really question the integrity and capacity of this user. if not the intentions of the post altogether, but let's not go into that.

- targeting is literally brainless. how someone can have issues with that is beyond me, and a challenge worthy of a genius person. really hammering home the previous point's questioning.

- "i knew there was limited automation" as was said in the thread, depends on the game system. some have far better and more advanced automation than FG, see pf2e or dnd 5e when using the automation modules for the latter.
yeah. foundry is a software that has a very strong API, modular structure and community support surrounding these mods. and while the benefits of the features the modules add cannot be credited to the core app, the fundamental user experience is what matters. and for example for dnd 5e, the automation modules are there since day one. if people don't use them, and then complain no automation, they can solve their issue in 10 seconds flat by just inquiring about it in the community discord or googling.

furthermore, foundry has a free web demo anyone can try.
if that's not enough, there's also an endless amount of youtube videos, reddit posts, github and gitlab pages, several adjecent communities showing and teaching you what foundry does and does not do at a given point in time. the development is so active, last month's video might be so out of date it is now not applicable. mods get updates everyday, and new ones come out every day too.

if the above seems like a platitude or like i am unwilling to put my stuff where my mouth is, feel free to contact me, i'll prove it to you by showing it in my own foundry. we can even jump on a call and compare screens between FG and FVTT. then we can let facts speak for themselves.
you know, like it's a fact thousands of people don't have the mentioned issues for some reason. nor does one find opinions like those common place in neutral places on the web. but i digress.

post your doubts, issues opinions folks, let's have a discussion about the state of Foundry compared to FG as of time of posting.. keep it amicable, we are all here to have fun and discussion our passion for TTRPG played with the aid of a computer.
(some people turn tables into TVs and use foundry 100% offline, in person, controlling the tokens with minis and rolling physical dice that report the result inside foundry chat, so it didn't feel right to say "TTRPG played online".)