Greatest. Fantasy Grounds. Idea. Ever.

[PneumaPilot]

Alright, this just occurred to me: Fantasy Grounds should be able to share editable PDFs as character sheets. This is the simple solution to mountains of difficulty with XML and lua scripting. I mean, I know that would not allow for automated rolling or whatever, but for the grand majority of people with favorite rules systems that are unsupported, a chat pad, image/map sharer, simplified combat tracker, story organizer, and sharable PDF sheets would more than meet their needs. I mean, that is pretty much all I am aiming at with the nWoD ruleset.

This new program could come standard with 3 or 4 graphical skins to accomodate horror, sci-fi, fantasy, etc. themes, along with an easily modified die roller. For instance, you should be able to tell the program that you only rolls 6s and that you count 'successes'. I've seen at least one other virtual tabletop out there that puts all that into a single options window.

Smiteworks and their partners could still produce automated rulesets for various games, but the base product would accomodate any pen and paper game.

[Foen]

You can get a similar effect to the editable PDFs by designing the character sheet in your favourite art package and exporting it as a PNG file. In FG you then set the character sheet frame to point to the PNG and hard code a few controls using the <bounds> tag to line them up over the 'editable' fields on the PNG.

Stuart

[Valarian]

Not!

The Character Sheet is the main focus of Fantasy Grounds and shouldn't be diluted. If you want a PDF as a character sheet, there are the map-focussed tools such as Maptool and Battlegrounds. Both Klooge and FGII are focussed on the character and roleplay rather than the map. To reduce functionality like that would be disasterous.

[Llellwylliell]

I don't think an editable pdf would dilute character and roleplaying. It would cause some problems with automation, as stated, but what does automation have to do with character and roleplaying?

[Oberoten]

Mhm... Lets put it this way? It might end up breaking every allready created ruleset.

[Xorn]

I don't think an editable pdf would dilute character and roleplaying. It would cause some problems with automation, as stated, but what does automation have to do with character and roleplaying?

It's an interesting idea--but the automation of die rolls and modifiers it quite helpful, especially since you're not all sitting around the table together.

[Griogre]

Not to pile on but it would break all drag and drop capabilities to and from the character sheet. However for simple games it might be fine. I do really agree with Valarian - this would be so much easier to do in MapTool or Battlegrounds because that pretty much how character sheets are shared - Though I don't think they are normally editable.

[PneumaPilot]

Well, the way I use Fantasy Grounds (for World of Darkness), we don't have anything automated on the character sheets. In fact, given the system, such automation would be disastrous since the last call for modifiers comes from the Storyteller (GM) and modifiers in WoD actually change the number of dice rolled, not the target number. Still, we wanted to use Fantasy Grounds instead of the others because we liked the setup. It looked like it was worth the money you'd pay for it, and it is - we all love it.

When I got the program, though, I didn't want an automated RPG system, I wanted a virtual tabletop. I wanted it to seem just like we were playing around the table, and it does. Our character sheets work like paper and our players do the work of adding up numbers and our Storyteller (me) does the work of coming up with modifiers - just as though we were around a real table.

It seems to me like a lot of folks who post desires for new rulesets in the Workshop are really just wanting a sharable character sheet (at least at first) and don't care so much about a completely automated system. And let's face it, any of us could design a good looking editable PDF long before we could put together even the simplest Fantasy Grounds XML monstrosity.

It just seems like it would open up the software to a lot more prospective players. It doesn't have to replace the automated stuff, it would just be an option for folks who don't have a clue how to do XML and lua scripting, but who would love to be on the Fantasy Grounds team for the graphical presentation and ease of use.

[unimatrixzero]

Might as well scan in some character sheets for whatever system you want to use, save em as jpegs, put them in the images folder, share em between individual players and write on them using the drawing tool.
A little primitive I know, but you don't seem to be after anything complicated.

Just a thought.

Regards
Uni

[mr_h]

I love the automation abilities of various rulesets, but I gotta admit that I would give up automation if it meant I had a character sheet for some of my favorite games (at least until a proper ruleset was made)

If there was an easier way to put in character sheets (PDFs or whatever), it'd definitly open the program up to a lot of newcomers for different RPGs. I've wanted to play Star Frontiers or Paranoia in FG, but having to make a character sheet has always held me back from those.

Uni's idea is pretty interesting, I'd be curious to see how well it works out.

[PneumaPilot]

That's not a terrible idea, Uni, but the lack of a text tool makes that not as helpful (the image sharer doesn't have a text tool, does it?).

The fact that I've written thousands of lines of XML and lua code for the nWoD ruleset shows that I personally want a quality character sheet experience, I've just realized lately that I'm reinventing the wheel, and all that I've accomplished so far is just to create something very similar to an editable PDF.

[Tenian]

Well, the way I use Fantasy Grounds (for World of Darkness), we don't have anything automated on the character sheets. In fact, given the system, such automation would be disastrous since the last call for modifiers comes from the Storyteller (GM) and modifiers in WoD actually change the number of dice rolled, not the target number. Still, we wanted to use Fantasy Grounds instead of the others because we liked the setup. It looked like it was worth the money you'd pay for it, and it is - we all love it.


I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't be able to automate a system like that. It's not the standard way to use the modifier stack, but I'm pretty sure you could either change the functionality of the modifier stack, or build a control on the character sheet that did something similar.


It seems to me like a lot of folks who post desires for new rulesets in the Workshop are really just wanting a sharable character sheet (at least at first) and don't care so much about a completely automated system.


The problem is this shared "graphic" character sheet would essentially kill any ruleset development. If someone did want to add automation they would pretty much have to start over. There's a very real possibility any existing campaigns would not be compatible, etc.



And let's face it, any of us could design a good looking editable PDF long before we could put together even the simplest Fantasy Grounds XML monstrosity.


XML would be faster for me. I have nothing approaching graphical talent :)

[PneumaPilot]

Not to argue about specific rulesets or anything, but in the WoD system, if you want to shoot the Vampire at the end of the street, you would add your Dexterity (attribute) dots (a certain number of D10s) plus your Firearms (skill) dots (another number of D10s) plus the damage rating of your selected weapon (additional D10s). Then the Storyteller would tell you to subtract the monster's armor (which would be secret - a number of D10s), and if the Vampire was using Celerity, you would have to subtract his Defense as well (minus more D10s). There could also be range modifiers, cover, etc., all of which change the number of dice rolled.

Now, the last person who was developing a WoD ruleset had a way to drag a number of dice from an attribute and then drag an additional number from the skill, and I'm not sure what he did after that. What we do is simply assign the F1 - F12 keys to roll 1-12 D10s. By the time you factor in all of the modifiers, grab all the dice from various places, etc., etc., I (the Storyteller) could have just told you that the modified roll came out to 6 dice and you could have hit the F6 button a hundred times faster than assigning modifiers, calculating, and letting the system roll it for you.

So for this rules system, at least, the easiest solution is to leave it in the players hands rather than in the automation.

[PneumaPilot]

Oh, by the way, in the Rules Lite nWoD ruleset, I have changed the modifier stack to add and subtract D10s, but no one uses it. Pretty much the only reason I changed it was so that it wouldn't add numbers to the result in case someone accidentally used it - since there is never a reason to do this in WoD.

[Spyke]

I think you'd be adding quite an overhead to what FG has to pass backwards and forwards, if your idea is that FG can load a pdf, then share it. Each time that pdf was edited, the whole pdf would have to be passed to all clients that could see it.

If you only wanted to pass the edited data, you'd need to keep the information outside the pdf, e.g. in an xml schema, and we're getting back to FG working the way it does now.

Spyke

[PneumaPilot]

Interesting point, Spyke. I'm sure that if you decided to make a program that shared editable PDFs, though, you could find a way for it to work efficiently. Adobe Acrobat uses a ton of javascript coding to automate information storage and retrieval. I'm sure there would be a way to have only updates passed back and forth between GM and player.

I'm not saying that the implementation would be a simple one. It would take some coding, but it could most definitely be done. Back when I worked for UPS in their technical publications department, I even wrote a script that would pull the subject line off of emails that met certain criteria and insert the information into an editable field of a PDF automatically upon receipt of the email. I had a wacky friend there that even turned a single page of a PDF into a complete application suite capable of automating all of his workflow. It looked like an operating system desktop or the front end to some custom-built app, but it was just a PDF!

[Tenian]

Not to argue about specific rulesets or anything, but in the WoD system, if you want to shoot the Vampire at the end of the street, you would add your Dexterity (attribute) dots (a certain number of D10s) plus your Firearms (skill) dots (another number of D10s) plus the damage rating of your selected weapon (additional D10s). Then the Storyteller would tell you to subtract the monster's armor (which would be secret - a number of D10s), and if the Vampire was using Celerity, you would have to subtract his Defense as well (minus more D10s). There could also be range modifiers, cover, etc., all of which change the number of dice rolled.


The analogue in the DnD 4E world is that each attack has a base stat (and potential modifiers) and an assoiciated weapon/implement has a bonus. Attacks are usually Strength modifier vs. AC or similar. When you double click a field like that in the 4E ruleseet it figures out your strength modifier, the weapon prof bonus and then rolls a D20. The player doesn't have to go drag their str to the modifier, drag the prof to the modifier, drag the power to the modifier, and then roll a d20. The modifier box is used for conditional bonuses such as cover, charging, flanking, etc.

If you built the character sheet correctly, your .357 magnum could have a single number/box at the end of it which was the attribute+skill+damage rating. The Host could then tell you your modifier. You could put this modifier in the stack.

Double clicking the number on the sheet would roll the attribute+skill+damage rating + modifier stack dice. You could even have the roll be labeled with the values for the attribute/skill/damage rating/modifier to double check the numbers.

As the host all you would need to do is figure out the modifiers (Vampire was using Celerity, Player shopped at Hot Topic this week, Vampire's Defense, etc) and give this number to the player. You could even make a system where double clicking on various items on the vampire's sheet would add these modifiers to the host's stack. The host could then drag the end result to chat, where the player could access it.

This has the potential to eliminate a lot of math errors.

[Tenian]

Really it seems like what you want is an easier interface design tool. Some sort of graphical interface to build character sheets.

I know Joshuha had some flash videos where he built such a tool.

It would definitely be a great boon to creating rulesets if some of the work could be done with a graphical interface (particularly the spacing of elements).

[Oberoten]

I'd be happy as a sow in mud just to have something that could load up a image and give me the correct coordinates in a sort of

<bounds rect="x,y,width,height" /> string to cut and paste. :)

[PneumaPilot]

I certainly see that there is a possibility to automate a dexterity+firearms roll. The benefits just don't seem to outweigh the costs to me, as a developer or as a player. I like to say, "Roll 6", and it just happens immediately.

The suggestion to have sharable editable PDFs doesn't mean that people still shouldn't be able to work on the automated stuff, though. I was just thinking that there would be many out there who would benefit from an easy way to start up in FG.

I remember joshuha's project, but since I have been away for a couple of months, I haven't heard how that is going. Yes, easy placement and dimension tools would save a lot painstaking trial and error. And something like the Forms Designer from the Microsoft IDEs would be the best thing ever.

[Spyke]

The suggestion to have sharable editable PDFs doesn't mean that people still shouldn't be able to work on the automated stuff, though. I was just thinking that there would be many out there who would benefit from an easy way to start up in FG.I have to mention here that I can happily code up the xml and lua to produce a character sheet and ruleset, but I've no idea how to produce an editable pdf. :o

I probably need to invest in better tools!

Spyke

[PneumaPilot]

Hehe, I guess we all have different skill sets. Making an editable PDF is actually quite easy, but the easiest part of my suggestion is that most game companies or fans have already produced the editable sheets for practically every game imaginable. You wouldn't even have to know how to do it, you would just have to find one you like.

[Foen]

And something like the Forms Designer from the Microsoft IDEs would be the best thing ever.

That would be DrDeth's RuleForge!

Foen

[joshuha]

I remember joshuha's project, but since I have been away for a couple of months, I haven't heard how that is going. Yes, easy placement and dimension tools would save a lot painstaking trial and error. And something like the Forms Designer from the Microsoft IDEs would be the best thing ever.

My project is progressing but between moving into a house and upcoming FUMcon prep I haven't had as much time to refine it more. I might release it in stages though but it needs a little more work before it would be ready for even an alpha release.