Players can see the token bags???!!

[Angloson]

Hey, I just (finally) had my first session. Unbelievable software. It was a first for most of us in 4E and using the software. Great fun, but with interesting learning.

I have a few questions. I'll start with just this one. How can I stop my players from using the token bag. When they can look through all of the minis they can guess what to prepare for... My players are not "cheaters" but how can they truly enjoy a surprise monster when they can look through the the mini bags.

Can I turn this off somehow??

Thanks

[Sigurd]

There are two token bags 'host' and 'shared'. Make sure your DM tokens are in 'host'.


Sigurd

[ErsatzPyre]

What Sigurd said. But that will also place all of your tokens in a jumble at the start of the session. You will have to organize some new *unnameable* bags while you host.
Not really too bothersome for most, but I'm an OCD stickler for organization when I GM. I prefer to put 'em in the ruleset 'tokens' folder in seperately labelled subfolders, so that the name shows up in my tokens box.
Fortunately my players hate cheating.

[Griogre]

Yeah I hate that tokens from a module all end up in a mess in the token box. However if you attach the tokens in the module then you should almost never have to open the token box as the DM.

I use a similar strategy to ErsatzPyre except I keep my monsters in a monster "bag" (folder) and inside the monster bag I have a folders called A, B, C, ect with a few letters combined so I only have about 23 folders. I just keep the mosters whose name starts with A in the A bag, ect. Remember you want to do this in the host token folder so the players can't see the tokens.

[ErsatzPyre]

Yeah I hate that tokens from a module all end up in a mess in the token box. However if you attach the tokens in the module then you should almost never have to open the token box as the DM.

I use a similar strategy to ErsatzPyre except I keep my monsters in a monster "bag" (folder) and inside the monster bag I have a folders called A, B, C, ect with a few letters combined so I only have about 23 folders. I just keep the mosters whose name starts with A in the A bag, ect. Remember you want to do this in the host token folder so the players can't see the tokens.

Good idea...Why didn't I think of that. Does it spare your players from having to download new tokens when they join a session?

[Griogre]

Tokens from the host folder are only transfered when they are placed on a map. Tokens from the shared folder are transfered to the players everytime they connect to the host - they don't appear to cache. You should thus minimize the tokens you have in shared. The only things I have in shared are some beads for marking cursed/quarried and a few colored arrows.

When I use to run 3.5 I kept summoned monsters, horses, riding dogs and familiar tokens in shared also.

[ErsatzPyre]

Alright. I was placing them in the Ruleset Tokens folder instead. Thanks for the info, that'll save them a helluva' lotta DL.
Can't believe the length of time it took to connect because of that. I feel slightly retarded now.
When my players ask why its so fast now, I'll just pretend I'm the man and not admit to faultyness, hah.

<.<

[Griogre]

Ah tokens in the ruleset folder are a bit different, those are shared similar to those if the FG tokens\shared folder, *but* I believe those tokens *are* cached because the ruleset is cached - so there should not be any tranfer on connection once the ruleset has been transfered once.

Now I understand your problem though because, yes, the players can see any tokens placed in the ruleset. A token folder placed in a module is the opposite - those are all like tokens in the host folder, I'm pretty sure. The confusion here is you can place token folders in modules, rulesets and the data app folder of FG also has one. Sigurd and myself were orignially talking about the one in data apps.

I have a lot of monster tokens, about 14 megs worth, which is bigger that the size of the d20 and 4E rulesets. I don't see any reason to double the size of my ruleset transfer so I don't put monster tokens in the ruleset I just keep them in FG data app tokens\host that way I can use the tokens in any ruleset.

[ErsatzPyre]

Ok cool. Well I never had the cache problem so I guess there's the difference. But I definitely prefer your method over my own.
Much appreciated.

*Runs off to change*

[Angloson]

Okay, great. This is what I wanted. I was also having a long download time. I will start rearranging my folders before next session. Wow, this'll be different.

I'm also curious about the maps then. Can I not download the maps but have them handy to share from the host side so they will not download unless I need them? I would like have enough maps ready even though they may not get there. But if they don't get there, I don't want them to have to DL them and waste that time.

Okay, it seemed to take about 30 minutes to DL at the start, is that normal, for the first session? Will the DL be faster now? I mean to say, aside from the token mistake I made, will the continuing sessions be quicker because they have some of this stored now?

Thanks again. And I want to make it clear, this in no way, blackens my happiness with this software.

[Griogre]

Download time is directly related to the host’s “up speed” and the number players and the size of the upload from the server to the clients. I would consider 30 minutes to be a bit long for just the 4E ruleset which is about 11.5 megs – of course if you have another 3 to 8 megs in tokens that would increase the time. With six players and about a 300k up speed it took me about 20 minutes to transfer the 4E ruleset. Once rulesets are loaded the first time they are cached on the client computers so the clients (players) don’t have to get the ruleset again unless something changes and then they should get just the change not the whole ruleset. This means the first time a group runs it usually takes the longest because you have to transfer the ruleset to everyone, usually at the same time. When the 4E ruleset was changing often I would tell my guys I was putting up the server about an hour early and to log in anytime before the game to get the ruleset. They would log in at different times which allowed the individual transfers to be faster.

There are several approaches for maps. The easiest way is to preload the maps you think you will use before you use them if they are large. The advantage to preloading is the map is then cached on the player’s computer so when you open it in the game instead of having to be transferred, the client opens it from the cache on his own computer – which not only is much faster it also saves the host’s up bandwidth. One thing about preloading, even if you only have a map preloaded on a couple of players machines instead of everyone’s it still helps because if you do have the transfer the map later, you only have to transfer it to the guys that don’t have it.

Typically if you make a habit of putting the server up a bit early before the game and let your players know there will usually be a few guys who log in early who you can transfer maps to. I usually take a couple minute break around the middle of my games. If you do take a break like that, it’s a great time to preload maps while everyone is AFK. Finally, try real hard to keep your map size down. You don’t want large files sizes for maps. Convert the maps to 256 color (8 bits) from 24 bits - for most maps there’s very little if any noticeable difference and an 8 bit map is about 1/3 the size of a 24 bit one (varies some with image compression).

If you do have a very slow connection then you can make modules with maps and there are some treads here on the forums on how to do that, but I would only do that as a last resort.

[icedcrow]

Also, I cut my maps up so that they aren't giant files. If I use a giant map it tends to degrade performance and there are issues with tokens not showing up and it taking forever to transfer.

[Angloson]

Great. I thought about the maps in that way. Sounds like all will be better.

One last question, when I preload maps those who are connected (obviously), does the command to preload auto-preload again for players logging on later? Or if I preload it again for the newcomers, will it just preload for all? In that case it may just be easier to share with all and then it will be fast for the few who were preloaded.

What do you think?

[Griogre]

One last question, when I preload maps those who are connected (obviously), does the command to preload auto-preload again for players logging on later?
No, only the players logged in at the time you tell the map to preload get it and it doesn't auto preload the maps later as people log in.


Or if I preload it again for the newcomers, will it just preload for all? In that case it may just be easier to share with all and then it will be fast for the few who were preloaded.
If someone already has a map preloaded, when you tell it to preload again, it only preloads to the guys who don't have it - so it does preload faster to the remaining guys because it skips the ones who already have it preloaded - just as it loads faster if you just say load it because those that don't already have the map don't have to share bandwidth with those that preloaded it earlier since they are loading it out of the cache.

If you have a large group of six players and half have a map preloaded the remaining guys will get it twice as fast than if you had to just loaded out to all six. The time difference is pretty meaningless for small maps but the larger the map file size the more important it is - with a map bigger than, say, 300K you'll start noticing it and with a map that is a meg or more you will see a big difference.

Icedcrow's suggestion on cutting up maps can be a good one too. I try to avoid cutting up maps myself if I can help it, because it can be a hassel changing maps all the time, but slicing a map up can make a huge differance in decreasing map file sizes.

[Angloson]

One more question. I've solved the token mishap. At least for the future. The tokens that the players could see before are still there even though I moved them all to the host folder. I believe this is due to the players loading the campaign the first time, and so will always have these on their computer. I tried to "/reload ruleset" but found I could not do that with them connected.

Is there another way to "delete" the tokens they have stored on their computers? I will not worry about it since this is only for one little adventure.

Thanks

[Griogre]

You could have them delete their cache for the campaign - however this is probably overkill because they will then have to re-download the ruleset the next time they connect. You are probably best off just not bothering in that case.

You could also start a second instance to get a cache for the campaign on your computer and then post it up somewhere like media fire and have everyone use that file to replace their cache files. Depending on the size of your group and their general comuter literacy that may or may not be more of a hassel than it is worth.