I truly regret buying this program

[Magnus]

1. The keyboard entry stops for no apparent reason.
2. The mouse roller stops for no apparent reason.
3. Bought the SW and then SWEX rulesets, but come to find the SWEX is just a online pdf with no game effect - It is still just SW.
4. The hypertext opens a new window with every link followed with no way to backtrack without laboriously closing every window.
5. The window scrolling is ridiculous, that is if you can get it to work. Seriously what is wrong with a scroll bar? Or a simple window close box - it takes two clicks to close every window. Or a simple resize box for that matter. It seems like they reinvened the UI and made it harder and slower.
6. The chat window is not resizable or positionable - it's there and it ain't moving.
7. To add bitmaps you have to manually move files into directories.
8. The only documentation is online: poorly written and incomplete.
9. With the SW rulesets you have to manually enter almost all of the data. You can't even cut and paste stuff from the rule books for instance like weapon data. Unlike the d20 character sheet you cannot scroll the trait die types - again you have go through the popup menu. Also the SW ruleset had no explanation on how to even use it.
10 . No hex grid.
11. It's dog slow.

Well shame on me for not exercising the demo - another $60+ down the drain.

[Sigurd]

Sorry you feel that way.

You do understand that you mention 3 products from 2 companies as if they are one. Digital Adventures is really the place to talk about your SW ruleset concerns.

Still, your observations are valid, but they are your own.

Personally, I've tried other over-the-net packages and I really think this is the best. The interface is different but it's also the most cohesive and game friendly that I've found.

At worst I think Fantasy Grounds is the leader of the pack in a young type of application. At best its a way to reach people over great distances and play RPGs like never before.

It may not work the way you expected but it works for a great many people.

As you said, perhaps you should have tried the Demo first. Perhaps you just need a different type of program. Try the competition. Buy\install the minimum setup first before you get expansions. Hopefully something is more suited to you.

Good luck, whatever you do.

Sigurd

[unerwünscht]

Well shame on me for not exercising the demo - another $60+ down the drain.

Your list is a little short, and its still the best product on the market.

[Valarian]

1. The keyboard entry stops for no apparent reason.
2. The mouse roller stops for no apparent reason.
The most common explanation for this is that screen focus has moved away from the Fantasy Grounds software, or you're using the mouse to navigate back to the Fantasy Grounds window from another application. Due to the software using DirectX, there are issues around window focus. If you use the ALT-TAB method to return to the Fantasy Grounds window, the focus will always return to Fantasy Grounds and you should not have the problem.

[Spyke]

4. The hypertext opens a new window with every link followed with no way to backtrack without laboriously closing every window.I have to say I've never found this to be a problem, but note that you can drag any window to the hotkey bar (use the square handle icon at the top) for instant use, and you can also set up keyboard hotkeys for them.

(You can also close a window with a right click and a drag to the close button. You don't have to click twice.)


11. It's dog slow.What is your machine specification? I find it perfectly playable even on an old laptop.

Spyke

[Spyke]

5. The window scrolling is ridiculous, that is if you can get it to work. Seriously what is wrong with a scroll bar? Or a simple window close box - it takes two clicks to close every window. Or a simple resize box for that matter. It seems like they reinvened the UI and made it harder and slower.One of the big winning features of Fantasy Grounds is the atmosphere you get during play. This is directly linked to the fact that the windows don't look like windows, and they don't have scroll bars. It's true that close buttons and scroll bars make it easier to handle these sort of elements, but the spell that FG generates, the superb look of paper strewn across a table, would be broken instantly. It's not that much harder to use the interface as supplied, and after a few games it becomes second nature and you don't even notice these issues.


6. The chat window is not resizable or positionable - it's there and it ain't moving.A lot of people feel that this should move, fair enough, but there are advantages to it being fixed. Bear in mind that this is where the dice must be rolled for them to register (you can roll elsewhere on the table if you want a result just for your own purposes), so it needs to remain big enough for this and it would be an extra overhead if you got into the habit of resizing it. Again, it's the one window that is fixed, and you can move the others round it: if it was moveable as well you wouldn't actually gain much ability to sort out your table.

Again, in practice during games, I feel it's not a problem being fixed in place. At least you always know where it is!


Well shame on me for not exercising the demo - another $60+ down the drain.Have you actually played a game using the software? I've enjoyed hundreds of hours of gaming, over four years of using FG, in an application that reeks of atmosphere. You'll never forget the first time you're down in some dank, forbidding cavern, with the fires of your enemy up ahead, and your GM 'turns down the lights'...

Spyke

[Sigurd]

I've enjoyed hundreds of hours of gaming, over four years of using FG, in an application that reeks of atmosphere.

Game less, bathe more :p


Sigurd

[Spyke]

Game less, bathe more :p


Sigurd
:D

Maybe I'll take the laptop to the shower?

Must ... keep ... gaming ...

Spyke

[White Noise]

Some people just don´t get it...what a shame...
This is the best program ever :D for RPGs of course...

[ArthurLovat]

When I bought FG and checked out the full version I was pretty overwhelmed myself and thought "I hope this wasn't a mistake!".

Let's not forget that the program needs some getting used to and has a pretty steep learning curve.

It took me about 8 hours to get used to it.

[Angloson]

Magnus,

Welcome. I understand your frustration. However, I have had the program for about a year. I have not even played a game using it yet. But I love it. I think what it is capable of makes the game experience as close as you can get to a face-to-face game.

I finally have convinced friends to get this program. I will be using the 4E ruleset and I´m looking forward to it.

Try to be patient and I know you will enjoy this program.

[Xorn]

4. The hypertext opens a new window with every link followed with no way to backtrack without laboriously closing every window.
5. The window scrolling is ridiculous, that is if you can get it to work. Seriously what is wrong with a scroll bar? Or a simple window close box - it takes two clicks to close every window. Or a simple resize box for that matter. It seems like they reinvened the UI and made it harder and slower.
7. To add bitmaps you have to manually move files into directories.
8. The only documentation is online: poorly written and incomplete.
10 . No hex grid.
11. It's dog slow.


I took out the stuff that I felt was addressed sufficiently already, and let me preface by saying I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just sharing my own experiences with the points you've brought up:

4 & 5. I wish there was a quicker way to close windows, too. Maybe a gem instead of an X, but something to close a window with one click. I'm sure this could be modded in, at the least. I've not had the scrolling issue you're describing, and I did not find window resizing to be difficult--I just hold Ctrl and drag the corner.

7. I also have not found moving images into the directory to be troublesome. I think we just place a different level of importance on this factor.

8. I learned most of what I know from the documentation and asking questions here, so I guess I feel the documentation was adequate at one time, and is really just getting out of date with new features. I'm really biased because I took some time to make some videos I felt would be helpful to newcomers, and give them a look at the software before there was a full demo of FG2. I'm not judging you in any way, but this was your first post here. If FG2 has anything going for it--it's the community here.

10. I think a hex-grid would own.

11. I haven't had problems with speed, either--could you be more specific? Do you mean it's not as fast as a face-to-face game, or the dice stutter across the chat window when you roll them? I've got this one module for the 4E PHB, that takes awhile to open, but that's because it's a complete parse (with pictures) of the whole freakin' book. :) Once it's opened there's no issues.

In the end, maybe FG2 isn't for you, and I'm sorry if you aren't happy with the software then. Maybe there are some ways to improve the experience you have with the software available in this community, as well.

[ozziewolf]

edit: Sorry if I come off sounding condescending... It's not intentional and I'm mostly just trying to be helpful.


1. The keyboard entry stops for no apparent reason.

You're actually tabbed out of the game although it looks like you're not. If you can see your task bar at all at the bottom of your screen you need to alt tab to fantasy grounds. (Fantasy grounds should fill up the entire window when in full screen mode.)

2. The mouse roller stops for no apparent reason.
This could be related to the alt tab problem. I've never encountered the problem myself. Assuming its not related to your first problem can you give examples of when it happens?



3. Bought the SW and then SWEX rulesets, but come to find the SWEX is just a online pdf with no game effect - It is still just SW.
I'm pretty sure the rulesets have nothing to do with the makers of Fantasy Grounds. You could also search for player made rulesets. I don't think I would purchase a ruleset myself. I know there was a decent Star Wars one that was free a while back.


4. The hypertext opens a new window with every link followed with no way to backtrack without laboriously closing every window.
I could see being an annoyance. I haven't found it to be that big a deal personally as you never lose a window that you where on previously. You could try suggesting it to the developers and they might add it as a feature.


5. The window scrolling is ridiculous, that is if you can get it to work. Seriously what is wrong with a scroll bar? Or a simple window close box - it takes two clicks to close every window. Or a simple resize box for that matter. It seems like they reinvened the UI and made it harder and slower.
I don't know what you're referring to about window scrolling... I haven't really had any problems navigating up or down in any of the windows. side Scroll bars I think would really detract form the aesthetics of the program. Closing a box is as simple as right click and close. It adds one more small step and keeps the game itself looking nice with out big X's every where. You can resize a box easily enough by holding ctrl and click holding a corner of a box to make it bigger or smaller.
It's not a web browswer based game and isn't built like one. It's a self contained program with its own custom UI. Not one modeled off of another problem. I think its more of a problem with a lack of familiarity with the controls. Once you become familiar with them its not any harder or slower than any other program.


6. The chat window is not resizable or positionable - it's there and it ain't moving.
You're right in this regard although I've never seen this to be a problem. It's used as a dice box and if you dont need all the extra space you can simply have a window opened up over it. The size could be a problem with people running at very low resolutions or small monitors. However in this day and age no one should be running in 800 x 600 resolution. (Even the oldest of computers should be able to handle a better resolution.)


7. To add bitmaps you have to manually move files into directories.
I don't think this is as big a deal as you're making it out to be. However there is always the option of suggesting a feature to the devs.


8. The only documentation is online: poorly written and incomplete
There are all kinds of very well done and complete video tutorials available. As for being online... you have the option of saving anything to your desktop as a video file if its a video tutorial or as a word document if its a post on a forum or something similar. I really think you're making a big deal out of something thats a non issue.


9. With the SW rulesets you have to manually enter almost all of the data. You can't even cut and paste stuff from the rule books for instance like weapon data. Unlike the d20 character sheet you cannot scroll the trait die types - again you have go through the popup menu. Also the SW ruleset had no explanation on how to even use it.

This is a problem with the company you bought the rulesets from not with Fantasy grounds. I would suggest checking with any custom rulesets that have the features you would like. I know the 4E ruleset has options that allow you to drag and drop weapons. I imagine there could be one for SW... however its not as popular as 3.5 and 4E so it might not have the same level of support from the player community. I know for sure there is at least one ruleset as we used it for a while. I don't recall all of the features that where in it though.
You can actually make the rulebooks into modules that are loaded with the game and can link to those items. You just need a pdf version of the book and a free for download parser. I think you can get the parser from the four ugly monsters website. (It's a great website for custom player made content.)


10 . No hex grid.
There is no default hexgrid yes I dont know if there has been one made by the player community or not. I'm not even sure if its possible or not. If there isn't one already made by some one you could suggest it as a feature.


11. It's dog slow.
This doesn't really tell me anything. What is dog slow exactly? I know if you're hosting a voice program like Skype and the FG server on the same computer that can cause long delays in maps and stuff loading. Outside of unusual things such as that with a decent connection players should have maps within 15-30 seconds. (Keep in mind the larger the file size the longer it will take to load.) If its going really slow I would advise looking further into the matter as it shouldn't be.


Well shame on me for not exercising the demo - another $60+ down the drain

Checking the Demo is always a good idea in advance. However I strongly believe your money has been well spent and with a little effort the majority of your problems can be resolved.

[Doswelk]

Any queries regarding the Savage Worlds rulesets should be directed to https://savageworldsonline.net/

It is the online community for Savage Worlds using Fantasy grounds II.

If you list your problems there people (who are better than me at explaining things), will be able to talk you through all your problems....

I am sorry to think that you have wasted your money on FGII, I have been using it since version 1, and it allows me to run my current campaign with my friends who are currently in UK, Finland, Belgium and New Zealand!

[mgholson]

I'm a new user and while I'm no where near as disgruntled as the OP there is definitly some room for improvement. I used openrpg for awhile and there are certain things it does really well, the game tree makes organization much simpler for one thing. Of course it looked like crap and had lots of problems I never really could get the map to work right.

Really the major thing for me is the UI, while it looks really nice its a pain to use. It really needs tabs along the bottom of the screen or something similar to keep your windows organized. I've allways had a thing against pretty UI's, yeah sure they may be astheticly pleasing but at the end of the day I want something that is effiecent and really don't care about the window dressing.

Secondly the fact that you have to go find folders to add files is a major issue. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a computer user and most of you are too, no big deal for us to make hidden folders visible in explorer and navigate to the data folder, but lots of people wouldn't have any idea what a hidden folder even is. How hard would it be to add a button that allows you to import files? well I have no idea but lots of programs can do it.

The program really needs better documentation, its kind of a shame that a community member had to create tutorial videos. And by the way if it wasn't for Xorn's videos I would have never got off the ground with this thing.

One last thing is bandwidth. Sitting around and waiting for a map to open up is a waste of time. There should be the option for the DM to open a map window, enter a url and load an image from the net. If that is impossible the program should at least background load the map so that the maps can all be loaded in cache as the players are logging on and everyone is getting ready. I guess the DM can preload the maps, though I don't think the DMs I've played under have been doing that.

OR how hard would it be to transfer the map to one player then command that client to transer it to another player to spread the load around.

I do like that the chat window doesn't move, its at least one thing I can always find.

Ultimately I think Smiteworks is going to have to do everything they can to compete with D&D insider, if they ever get that going.

[Osprey71]

You're right in this regard although I've never seen this to be a problem. It's used as a dice box and if you dont need all the extra space you can simply have a window opened up over it. The size could be a problem with people running at very low resolutions or small monitors. However in this day and age no one should be running in 800 x 600 resolution. (Even the oldest of computers should be able to handle a better resolution.)

This is a bad assumption. I have a brand new netbook (Acer Aspire One) that has a resolution of 1024x600. I was ready to buy this program but ran the demo on it and the fixed chat window basically makes the program unusable on that machine. It otherwise runs just fine. I love the small form factor and ultra portability of the new netbooks and was hoping to use Fantasy Grounds on it during our live play sessions. If the interface were more customizable and scalable it could run on any windows machine. So sadly I'll miss out on using this program which otherwise looks perfect for my needs.

[EugeneZ]

Doesn't look like anything needs to be added but I'm just going to re-inforce what others have said: Your list is mostly made up of nitpicks and "nice-to-haves" in a piece of software that gets nearly everything else right. For me (and many others, as you can see) it's far and away better than any competing product. There are some issues but there are also some really innovative and useful features that I wouldn't have even thought to put in a list like yours if they didn't exist.

But, hey, if you don't like it, that's too bad, good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[Xorn]

Ultimately I think Smiteworks is going to have to do everything they can to compete with D&D insider, if they ever get that going.

I'm not going to get into a debate on this, but I think the bolded text has particular importance here. Not to mention that I own FG2--I don't have to keep paying for it every month to keep using it. :D

[Rook]

Not to mention that I own FG2--I don't have to keep paying for it every month to keep using it. :D

Amen brother.

Rook

[NymTevlyn]

To get around the alt + tab issue and gaining focus back using the mouse, don't maximize it using the maximizer button. Drag the FG2 window to the size of the monitor and it won't treat it as full screen. This lets you use the mouse to get focus back.

[Oberoten]

I think that by now posting anything more in this thread from a fellow who posted once and might or might not be a troll (rather sucessfull one if he is) is truly beating a dead horse with an epic level crowbar.

- Obe

[unerwünscht]

LOL... But I wanted to see how far this thread would go.

[mgholson]

I'm not going to get into a debate on this, but I think the bolded text has particular importance here. Not to mention that I own FG2--I don't have to keep paying for it every month to keep using it. :D

I know this thread is dead, but...

I just want to say I am 100% agreement with on that. BUT, lets say someone starts looking for a virtual table top and has no idea what they are doing. Are they going to go with this one, or are they going to go with the officially licesnsed one, that will have a mass of publicity. Even if it sucks and you can only run 4th editon games that play like diablo, people will still flock to the official version, or hopefully I'm wrong.

[Sorontar]

I know this thread is dead, but...

I just want to say I am 100% agreement with on that. BUT, lets say someone starts looking for a virtual table top and has no idea what they are doing. Are they going to go with this one, or are they going to go with the officially licesnsed one, that will have a mass of publicity. Even if it sucks and you can only run 4th editon games that play like diablo, people will still flock to the official version, or hopefully I'm wrong.

The introduction of 3.x DnD and the OGL rejuvenated the RPG industry, people came to DnD first and then tried other game systems.

If new blood comes into the virtual tabletop world via the DnD solution I have no doubt they will start checking out alternatives and FG will be the obvious choice as long as it progresses as it has been doing.

[unerwünscht]

The introduction of 3.x DnD and the OGL rejuvenated the RPG industry, people came to DnD first and then tried other game systems.

If new blood comes into the virtual tabletop world via the DnD solution I have no doubt they will start checking out alternatives and FG will be the obvious choice as long as it progresses as it has been doing.

I have to respectfully disagree with you on both points here.
D&D lite (4th Ed as we like to call it) has tainted the pool of creativity that once existed in the Role Playing world. More and more people with no creativity what so ever are getting involved in "role playing" because they think that 4th ed is an example of what role playing is.

The 2nd opinion is more accurate, and yes Fantasy Grounds has the potential to be the future of Role Playing. It is by far the best application currently on the market, but the developers are still human (I think) and as such they will eventually hit a point where there will be nothing else they can do for the application.

Not to mention that their inflexibility on license handling will be their downfall. Almost all of the other applications at this point have floating licenses and some of them are starting to catch up with the rest of the functionality of Fantasy Grounds.

[Sorontar]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on both points here.
D&D lite (4th Ed as we like to call it) has tainted the pool of creativity that once existed in the Role Playing world. More and more people with no creativity what so ever are getting involved in "role playing" because they think that 4th ed is an example of what role playing is.

The 2nd opinion is more accurate, and yes Fantasy Grounds has the potential to be the future of Role Playing. It is by far the best application currently on the market, but the developers are still human (I think) and as such they will eventually hit a point where there will be nothing else they can do for the application.

Not to mention that their inflexibility on license handling will be their downfall. Almost all of the other applications at this point have floating licenses and some of them are starting to catch up with the rest of the functionality of Fantasy Grounds.

You're actually disagreeing with a point about 4th Edn I didn't make but I'll clarify that my first point concerned 3.x rejuvenating the RPG market at the point where strong established companies were struggling to make money.

The OGL enabled firms to enter the market without having to spend the money developing a system, which may or may not have been accepted by the RP market, they could establish themselves by providing peripheral products at reduced risk.

If WotC hadn't done what they did, and say decided to drop the PnP line completely and concentrate on CRPG's, I'd be hard pushed to think of another company that could have led the market.

I see the DnD Virtual Tabletop introducing people to VTs who had never thought about them before. They check out WotC's site and once they are sick of just playing DnD or paying monthly they will end up on Smiteworks door.

The licensing issue is a long running saga and I assume we look at it differently, hopefully Smiteworks will find a way to have a permanent upgrade facility and maybe they will look into floating licenses but I do not have an issue with players being expected to pay for a license themselves. But hey ho.

[unerwünscht]

Sorry, I thought "the DnD solution" was a reference to something mentioned at gencon that it was obviously not a reference to. So I retract my first disagreement. You are correct, had the 3.5 wave, and OGL not been there, the RPG world would not be what it is today.

And on the floating keys topic, I would just like to add that I am now building solid wood gaming tables and chairs. I sell the Tables at $60 a pop, and the chairs at $30 each. The only condition is that only one DM may run a game on the table, and once a player sits in the chair he is the only player that may sit in that chair ever again. If you get a new player you must order a new chair. Oh, and you can only use chairs made by me at that table.

So who wants to buy a table from me?

[EugeneZ]

I'm not sure that Smitework's choice to not have floating licenses is one that was made lightly, nor do I believe it was made to worsen the value of the license as you imply. Small companies like Stardock have long touted that less licesnsing restrictions means gaining the trust and loyalty of customers, while pirates will exist in any scenario and shouldn't be counted.

That said, Stardock spent quite some time working out a system that was fair to both customers and themselves, and then built an entire delivery mechanism to support that to some degree. The hard fact is that saying "no floating licenses" plays it safe and easy. I think that if floating licenses were a simple choice, Smiteworks would have made it already.

This is all speculation, mind you.

[unerwünscht]

So does that mean you would like to purchase a table and some chairs?

[joshuha]

Well the one thing I worry about with floating licenses is stagnation of income to continue developing the program.

To take it with your analogy, if there were 10,000 potential customers and I could only sell 100 tables with 10 chairs but those 10 chairs kept getting reseated with new people for free I could lose 9,000 other potential customers if I was selling them individually.

But as a GM I too would like floating licenses and think as long as the floating licenses were tied to a GM just once that with the influx of GMs that it would still bring in enough revenue to support the product going forward. I look to other floating license systems like Klooge and see while the licensing is more palatable the communities are just the same few people posting games.

[unerwünscht]

I'm sorry, I guess I really should have made myself more clear.

I purchased 1 full and 4 lite licenses to Fantasy Grounds so my friends and I could play D&D as some of them had moved away. As time went on my friends had less and less time for D&D and now we never play anymore. So I now have 4 licenses that are useless to me, as they have already been used by people who will never use them again. Two of which were only used for two or three game sessions.

The end result? I would not suggest anyone ever purchase a copy of Fantasy Grounds, unless they already have a full gaming group. And only then if they know EVERYONE will use Fantasy Grounds, and will stick around long enough to make it worth getting.

[joshuha]

Ah I see, we are kinda the opposite. I convinced my friends to get lite licenses to play in a game I was running and now they play in other games advertised on the forums and/or want to upgrade to full licenses as FG has enabled them to play when they could not before.

But I totally understand where you are coming for and as I said I would prefer floating licenses but only to the extent that they are tied to the GM who purchased them. I think that strikes a good balance between allowing both "fixed" groups to easily have people come in and out under one GM as well as letting new players try out FG with certain GMs. However, it still drives new sales as new GMs come in and purchase more floating licenses. Some other floating license systems allow the licenses themselves to be passed to new GMs as well but I think that leads to stagnation of the product in the long run.

[unerwünscht]

I agree, letting a floating license become "transferable" is a horrid idea for everyone really. But if I had a panel inside my full version that would allow me to enter up to around 8 lite licenses, that would allow up to 8 other people with an unregistered lite version to log in and play, I would totally buy the other four licenses to fill my table up, and would also refer everyone I know to the application, so they could (hopefully) do the same.

That's what? an extra $100 that smite works is missing out on from just me alone. Not to mention the other (who knows how many) people that would do exactly the same thing. I would guess that they would sell more copies of the application from doing that than they have already sold total to date.

[ozziewolf]

D&D lite (4th Ed as we like to call it) has tainted the pool of creativity that once existed in the Role Playing world. More and more people with no creativity what so ever are getting involved in "role playing" because they think that 4th ed is an example of what role playing is.

I'd like to see some hard data on how you came up with this conclusion.

Right now it just looks like an unfounded opinion of some one who doesn't like 4th edition.

Neither 3.5 or 4th edition is an example of what "role playing" is. They're both sets of rules on how to play a game. Neither is a set of rules on how to RP and that is left up to the players and DM's to figure out for themselves. RP itself is limited to the imagination. (Unless I missed a memo and the RP-PHB is comming out soon.))

[unerwünscht]

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[Sorontar]

Actually IMO the 4ed DMG has one of the better guides on how to actually DM that I have come across. Many current DMs playing other systems could take a lot out of that book.

I won't knock 4ed and I generally laugh at it being accused of killing creativity and RP in PnP.

Systems don't kill RP people do *whoo hoo*.......

Ahem we now return you back to your normal service :D

[ozziewolf]

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[unerwünscht]

message deleted

[Ged]

It seems the original complaints have been discussed enough. If I'm wrong, correct me by starting a new thread.