Is anyone still working on the SWSE ruleset?

[MeepoSose]

I was hoping someone had started some library modules with templates I could fill in from the books and then drag and drop them onto character sheets, encounters, etc like we can now do with the 4E ruleset.

If not, would it make sense for me to replace all the element names in the ruleset XML files and scripts that were specific to D20 with the ones for Star Wars?


<EDIT>
Okay, I unzipped the D20 CSRD module, renamed it and recompiled it and was still able to drag and drop from there into the Personalities window. The SWSE ruleset has a few differences in the XML elements used for an NPC, but the ruleset is smart enough to just drop off any that don't matter and copy over data in elements with the same name. I then copied a personality from my campaign's db.xml into the monster SRD module and when it copies it gives you exactly what is in the library module.

Aside from getting my personal library of Star Wars monsters build up, there are a few other thigns I'd like to port over from the latest 4E ruleset to the SWSE ruleset. Any pointers on where to start for these would be greatly appreciated.
1. Drag attacks from the combat tracker and drop them on a player so it automatically notifies of success or failure
2. Require CTRL+mousewheel to change values
3. Add Encounters that you can pre-populate with NPC enemies and then drop into the combat tracker all together (with init roles for the group)
4. Auto-append an index number to NPCs with the same name when they are added to the combat tracker

For those familiar with modifying existing rulesets or experience with the 4E ruleset:
1. Are these changes going to be relatively minor or fairly involved?
2. Is it considered okay to copy some of the best features from one community developed ruleset to another?

I think what you guys have all done on the existing rulesets is fantastic.

[Griogre]

A couple of things: First the CSRD if you are refering to DA's CSRD is partly propietary - Not the parts of it that are the SRD, though. Read the license if you end up using it.

On the porting of the 4E ruleset to SWSE. The combat tracker is probably the most complicated part of the d20 ruleset followed next by the character sheet particularly the skill page. The version of the combat tracker JPG is using is even more complicated. Everything you want to do other than the Cntr-Shift messes with the combat tracker. It's going to probably be very involved.

One suggestion, I might make is why don't you just use the JPG 4e Ruleset to run SWSE or even the JPG_d20 ruleset? They already have the features you want in them and it is probably easier to change the character sheets than the tracker.

On copying some of the best features, it depends on how (or if) it is licensed. It also depends on what you are going to do with it. If it is just for you and you don't distribute it, then you are not going to get into trouble. If you are going to distribute it then you only want to distribute things you are allowed to.

For Star Wars all the referance material is proprietary. Making an NPC enemies book for your personal use - is fine. Giving it to others is not. It is probably fine to make a Star Wars character sheet as long as you don't use art or logos belonging to someone else.

[MeepoSose]

Thanks Griogre, I appreciate the suggestions and guidance.

I was curious as to whether or not it would be more efficient to go from Orange's SWSE ruleset towards the 4E ruleset or to do as you suggested and go the opposite direction.

I am building this for my own personal use and for the benefit of my players who will be connecting. If it's going to be possible for me to contribute back to the community without violating anyone else's IP, then I'd obviously want to do that.

[unerwünscht]

LOL.... You want to see just how far IPR goes in reference to "distribution" of character record sheets you should check this: www.3eprofiler.net

No company that makes any form of role playing game would be stupid enough to challenge on a character record sheet. They would lose millions to save hundreds, not going to happen.

[Griogre]

MeepoSose, first I agree with unerw&#252;nscht on character sheets and I've been an advacate of character sheet only rulesets because of it.

I am not really familiar with the SWSE. I last played the d6 WEG version of Star Wars, but my understanding is 4E and SWSE are cousins in a lot of ways. If you have the SWSE ruleset already just compair the various rulesets to find the one closest to what you want and mod that one.

[unerwünscht]

MeepoSose, first I agree with unerwünscht on character sheets and I've been an advacate of character sheet only rulesets because of it.

I am not really familiar with the SWSE. I last played the d6 WEG version of Star Wars, but my understanding is 4E and SWSE are cousins in a lot of ways. If you have the SWSE ruleset already just compair the various rulesets to find the one closest to what you want and mod that one.

Since I apparently have to declare it on every post I make these days, this is in no way intended to be flame, just an honest question. :-)

I was under the impression that SWSE was more like 3.5, I am probably less familiar with it than you are, and not really sure where I got the idea that it was more like 3.5, but that is the understanding that I had. Can anyone elaborate on this for us? please.

[Foen]

I think SWSE was a playtest by WotC for some aspects of 4e. An example is the skill system: you are either trained or not, there is no concept of skill points.

However, given everything else in 4e DnD, it is hard to call if SWSE is closer to 3.5 or 4e.

Foen

[MeepoSose]

It's kind of a different beast. The skills are similar in that you have trained skills that just give you a flat +5 and you get 1/2 your character level added to them. The same is basically true for the saves and attacks. Force Powers are somewhat like powers in 4E but only for force users. In addition, you do have talents and feats.

The one big difference is that there is a condition track where you slide up or down on the condition track and your status would apply no penalties, -1, -2, -5 or -10 to all your attacks, skill checks, etc.

OrangeGo's SWSE ruleset was already modified to show the condition track on the charsheet but it wasn't applying it anywhere that I could see. So far, I was able to add the double-clicking functionality for skill checks and ability checks and have it perform some basic conditional checks that it uses to modify the bonus value and description if the character is in a condition state other than "normal."

Currently, an initiative check with a bonus +8 will show up like the attached image for a character 3 steps below normal on the condition track.

The next steps I hope to get working are to add a condition section to the combat tracker with a toggle (much like the friend or foe icon) and to also adjust all the saves and movement speeds and attack rolls based on that condition setting.

[Xorn]

SWSE is a hybrid of 4E D&D, really.

3E point buy is standard attribute generation.
Multi/Prestige classes are 3E style.
Skills are 4E style (they were the test bed).
Feats are 3E style (gained slower, but stack).
Talents are like feats for a specific class, and kind of like 4E feats.
Defenses are 4E style (4 defenses, attacker always rolls vs defense).
Combat is still 3E style (multiple actions per round with -2/-5/-10/-15 penalties).
You get Second Wind, but only after half HP, and the condition track accounts for large hits.

In the last podcast there was a hint that SWSE would move closer to 4E as things moved forward. We'll see--my brother isn't interested in running it since 4E came out--said it feels clunky now.

[cbradshaw007]

I have modified the current SWSE to add alot of features I have found here in the community. I want to share it but Orange has not responded to an pm's about it. The next thing I am working on is to modify the npc sheet to toggle between droid, person, vehicle or starship. My goal is to use excel to output in xml and put all of the stuff from the books into a format we can use. Time is not with me so it will be a month or so before I can get back to this.

[MeepoSose]

The npc sheet sounds really interesting. Work is stepping up a little bit recently, but I'll probably be able to invest some decent time on it every weekend or two.

[MeepoSose]

Well, I'm busy keying in a bunch of the NPCs into a library module. I borrowed heavily from the 4e monster library module and adapted it to show NPCs by faction. I really like the collapsible headings and the filter ability on library modules. My plan is to write the various monster lists by faction and CL at least. I'm using a simple web page I wrote to edit and create new monsters and to add them to the index at the appropriate spot. It's still time consuming getting them entered though, but it seems faster this way since everything is pretty much in the same order as the books.

If anyone would like a copy of the web site code, let me know. It's just one basic page and a few XML files written in asp.net (visual studio 2008.) I'm just running it locally myself. You'll need to manually update your db.xml in your module file with the new version created from the web page -- but it might save you some time.

[ArthurLovat]

Good work so far! I'm really excited about this! ^_^
What would you say, in a percentage value, how "done" is the project?

[MeepoSose]

Well... it really depends on your definition of "done." Really, the SWSE ruleset that GoOrange created is functional enough to run a game. After seeing all the cool features others are putting in their rulesets, though, made me want to see those same sort of things in the SWSE ruleset.

For me, the ruleset is only part of equation. In order for me to GM more efficiently, I really want to have all the NPCs, feat/class/power descriptions loaded into the system and linked up to nice looking tokens. In that respect I'm only maybe 25% done with what I want to get accomplished before I run my first game. Unfortunately, I can't simply provide the module and token info to everyone since it is copyrighted, but like others have done, I can point you to where you can get all the stuff from WOTC and make your own.

With the web data entry interface and a search for "saga edition statistics" on WOTC's SWSE site, you can generate entries pretty quickly for your own module. Xorn already posted some excellent tips for creating tokens, and you can follow those to generate some really nice looking tokens. That's what I did one entire weekend. For mine, I was very pleased using PhotoShop and adding drop shadows to the figs.

In another week or two, I could probably post up a bare-bones copy of my monster module with a sample record you can use as an example. If people are interested, I could attach the web interface I personally use to fill it out. The only problem is that I may not have much time to provide support for people trying to use it. I think it's fairly self-explanatory, but it is definitely not user-proof.

[ArthurLovat]

That's a great feature you're offering us! Thanks a lot! ^_^

I understand you made some subtle changes to the SWSE-ruleset too. Will you make those available to the community?

[Tenian]

Hey that looks familiar! :)

How different is the data structurally from the 4E DnD data and are there samples available for download from WOTC? It's possible I could take a look at building a SWSE parser. However I'm not interested in actually purchasing any reference material so I would need to be able to get a good sample of the data you are looking to parse (something like the DDI Compendium for SWSE?).

[MeepoSose]

Hey that looks familiar!
I hope you don't mind. You've done great work on the 4E ruleset and modules. You guys have definitely set the bar high for any of the other modules/rulesets. In fact, I normally start off by saying, "hmmm... I wonder how they did that in the 4E ruleset." :)


How different is the data structurally from the 4E DnD data and are there samples available for download from WOTC?

It's not too different. I stole this chunk from your mm4E (I hope you don't mind) and just added reference_monsters.xml to the ruleset to allow the same sort of grouping.



<ffgroup>
<librarylink type="windowreference">
<class>reference_classmonsterlist</class>
<recordname>monsterlists.ffgroup@4E Monster Manual</recordname>
</librarylink>
<name type="string">By Group</name>
</ffgroup>


As far as each monster's stats go, they have a few different elements as defined in the existing SWSE ruleset and I just added another couple that I can use when I programmatically add them to the monster manual. There aren't any complex child elements like powers. I may also look to split out flat-footed AC values, SR and DR which are on a lot of the stat blocks but don't have a box on the NPC window yet.

For getting the stats from WOTC's site, I just go here
WOTC Search Screen (https://search.atomz.com/search/?sp_i=1&sp_q=saga+edition+statistics&sp_a=sp10025a73&sp_k=&sp_p=all&sp_n=31&sp_f=ISO-8859-1) and do a search for [saga edition statistics] without the brackets. I'm currently copying/pasting chunks into my aspx form instead of the whole stat block. The nice thing is that you could also grab the corresponding image and make the token at the same time for most of those. It's not the complete list, but there are lot of them in the previews.

[MeepoSose]

That's a great feature you're offering us! Thanks a lot! ^_^

I understand you made some subtle changes to the SWSE-ruleset too. Will you make those available to the community?

I'd be happy to provide whatever I come up with as long as nobody minds me posting stuff borrowed from others and mixed with my own twists. The community seems extremely friendly, though, so I don't expect to hear any objections. I've also been PM'd by others who have made their own changes. Maybe we can post a combined update to GoOrange's original SWSE ruleset.

[Tenian]

Naw, feel free to use whatever you find helpful. I'm not even sure who designed the NPC grouping display. It was probably moon or JM. I'm pretty sure it was already built before I got into parsing the npcs.

I looked at the stats and they look significantly different than the 4E MM stats. They are fairly regular so something definitely could be written. I may get bored this weekend and take a crack at it. It's that or punch in more textreference data from the FR:CG or DMG.

Oh and others deserve most of the credit for the 4E ruleset. My changes are really minor (or rough ideas fixed up by more talented people). I just work on putting all the pretty data in.

[RuzeII]

I'm looking for a way to add library modules into my ruleset, or to find some. Specific library prints that I'm seeking are a feats compilation, an equipment list, and a talents complilation.

I've got the books, and I've got some great .pdf compilations made by fans. I guess I *could* make something like this myself, but after several attempts, it's still a fail. I could even get an edited module with a new name to show up in the d20 set.

I think I'm missing something important, and really could use the help (or if the work has been done, I'd appreciate the efforts of others even more :D ).

Just don't know what to do at this point.

[MeepoSose]

I think I'm missing something important, and really could use the help (or if the work has been done, I'd appreciate the efforts of others even more :D ).

Just don't know what to do at this point.

I think the learning curve is a little steep still at this time. I haven't tackled the library modules for the feats, talents and equipment lists yet but I plan to do so fairly soon. There are two keys to figuring out how to structure your db.xml data files.

1. Get a good XML editor -- preferably one where you can collapse sections and check that the doc is well-formed
2. Locate the section in the ruleset where that xml is traversed. The 4e_JPG does a really good job for the monsters lists. So I looked through the xml files there to see how they did it. Specifically, they use reference_monsters.xml. Look for matching class elements and datasource elements with name element values in your code.

I normally don't do much with XML but I'll try to explain anyway. Others can feel free to correct me if I misstate something.

These are the most relevant parts of reference_monsters.xml that I used
Line 170 & 171


<!-- Monster lists -->
<windowclass name="reference_classmonsterlist">

* You'll note that I made sure this matched the section of my db.xml in the 2nd screenshot.

starting at Line 199, there was a nested windowlist


<windowlist name="grouplist">
<bounds>17,40,-20,-14</bounds>
<datasource>.groups</datasource>
<class>reference_monstergrouplistitem</class>
</windowlist>

* Note that the datasource gives the element name to use as a datasource. A script farther down in the file instructs the program to loop through these to get the windowlists.

Well, as I'm walking through this explanation, it dawns on me that I don't know it well enough myself to fully explain it. :o

Basically, just find one you already like and test making a few simple edits to things, re-zip it up and see where that changed your data or if it broke it. If you broke it, undo what you did and try something different. The core structure of most of the module files is that you have several layers of indexes and pointers and then finally the area where the data is actually stored. The CSRD had several locations where the data was stored, but I think the way the 4E guys laid out their xml was cleaner. All the monsterdata was placed in one location. If you made a new monster record, you merely need to add a pointer to it within the index where you want it displayed.

[MeepoSose]

..and here is the last screenshot showing an actual data record. The data is the final stage.

[wigwam]

Guys - I just want to say great work and I'm really stoked about this, Would LOVE to get under the hood and see how this ruleset stuff hangs together and works out. You've given me a head start ... I'll be watching things closely and maybe someday will be able to contribute....

[MeepoSose]

Just an FYI, I've started working with Ruze on what we are calling the SWSE_II ruleset. Ruze based that ruleset on the 4E_JPG ruleset that he re-skinned and we've both modified to fit Star Wars. We'll probably track updates on the new thread SWSE_ii (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9162)