D&D 4e Effect Durations

[vonBlashyrkh]

Many, many powers in D&D 4e have an effect that lasts until a specific circumstance occurs rather than a fixed duration. Most effects persist until either:

The end of the actors turn,
The start of their next turn
The end of their next turn
Until the affected character makes a saving throw
The end of an encounter

And these were the options presented in the FGU interface for the system until this update.

Now it has # of rounds, mins, hours or days (the latter 3 are not relevant in this system), short or long rest (similar but not the same as end of encounter).

Problem #1: "Until the end of your next turn"
I've been going through my current group of player characters powers and replacing end of next turn with 2 round durations decreasing at the end of the actors turns. Fine but when effects are added to the CT the durations always come out at 0, so they need manually applying which is going to get very, very tedious when multiple actors are affected on a regular basis
I have turned all extensions off and the issue persists.

Problem #2 "Until successful save"
There no longer seems to be an option for an effect to end on a successful saving throw, either in the powers effects box or on the CT. Given the huge number of powers and creature abilities this applies to, this is big problem. The ruleset desperately needs it's 'until save' duration restored.

Problem #3. (Unrelated but this one's been going on a while so I'll throw it in here as a bonus)
The Vulnerable effect will only work if a specific damage type is specified eg VULN:5 fire. However certain powers simply apply Vulnerability to all damage ie VULN:X but this no longer seems to do anything, is used to, but for a while now the extra damage is simply not applied. In fact I was even getting an error anyone tried to damage something with this effect on it. This one is important as many attacks do untyped damage (weapons especially) in 4e.

The duration problem I'm sure is not going to be an isolated case, I haven't looked at my Vaesen / Aliens, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Daggerheart or Stormlight sets yet. Not everything uses 5e rounds and squeezing the others into a one size fits none approach to me seems like it will cause more problems than is necessary.

[vonBlashyrkh]

67307

As an example I've included a screenshot of just one creatures powers the party ran into in our previous session. At that time, I could simply drag & drop the effect onto the target and it would apply, alongside the correct duration, whatever it may have been and it worked just fine.

Now the effect goes on but duration / until save doesn't exist.

Reminder, this is for one creature. Now imagine having a whole bunch of them that are similarly broken.

[Moon Wizard]

Just pushed an update that should help with the "endnext" and "save" effect word parsing.

You can use "VULN: 5 all" to apply vulnerability to all damage types.

Regards,
JPG

[vonBlashyrkh]

You can use "VULN: 5 all" to apply vulnerability to all damage types.


I tried that in the past as well as just now. As far as I can tell, this doesn't do anything, tested it with various damage types as well as untyped. I get a message saying [VULNERABLE] but it doesn't change the result.



Just pushed an update that should help with the "endnext" and "save" effect word parsing.


'endnext' I can't see changes anything, durations are still being applied as 0 when dragged to CT

The save one is a partial fix for creature abilities, but the CT used to include a modifier box if someone had a bonus or penalty for some particular type of effect. How do I incorporate that now? It was also possible to use it to make a save on the fly for that particular effect. Eg if one individual actor had Superior Will they can save against Dazed or Stunned at the start of their turn. How could that be handled?

Adding SAVEOE to all player character effects that now require it seems like an awful lot of busywork to cover for what was simply an option to choose in power duration prior to this update.

I'd like to point out at this point my particular group are level 18 and have an awful lot of powers between the 5 of them this affects.

Problem #4. Critical Hits
In 4e critical hits do maximum base damage for the power / weapon (eg a Longsword crit will always do 8 on the first d8) plus a number of bonus dice based on enhancement level. The bonus dice are being added, as of this update, the base damage is also being rolled without the maximum result.

[vonBlashyrkh]

And now in tonight's PF2 game physical weapon damage types are not being recognised (slashing / bludgeoning / piercing / physical).

WEAK to a damage type is not working as expected, eg our lvl 9 Thaumaturge applies WEAK: 2 [HLVL] physical to targets, it applied WEAK: 6 and no damage type and the effect did nothing
RESIST to a damage type is not working as expected. eg our lvl 9 Psychic unleashes gaining RESIST: 9 mental, he got RESIST: 9 with no damage type indicated

The zombies they were fighting get this mass of effects... IMMUNE: bleed; IMMUNE: death effects; IMMUNE: disease; IMMUNE: mental; IMMUNE: paralyzed; IMMUNE: poison; IMMUNE: unconscious; RESIST: 7 all,!positive,!critical; WEAK: 14 critical; WEAK: 10 positive

Critical hits and positive damage was incorrectly being resisted 7 while still applying the weakness.

We gave up at that point.

For me personally and my groups, this update is a disaster.
I can understand unifying might be easier for people coding, but for some users, it's taken something that was working just fine and made it unusable in it's current state. To me, that's a no-no. it has broken so many things when any particular ruleset version of an effect uses different terminology how are we supposed to know what to change and it amounts to an awful lot of work.

Please return to the previous state that actually worked.

[Moon Wizard]

For 4E;
* The vulnerability does not change the roll; but changes the damage applied to the creature. See the damage application text value following the roll.
* Modified the CoreRPG ruleset to allow "end of next turn" for all D&D rulesets. If it is the creature's turn in the CT, it will apply a duration of 2; otherwise, it will apply a duration of 1.
* For the ongoing saves; you can specify a modifier using SAVEOE: # (Ex: SAVEOE: -2)
* I'll look at the critical damage dice issue.

For PF2:
I am investigating the WEAK/IMMUNE/RESIST issues with Trenloe.

Regards,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

Just pushed a new update to PF2 reworking the IMMUNE/RESIST/WEAK/IGNORERESIST/IGNOREIMMUNE handling.

Just need to look at the 4E critical dice now.

Regards,
JPG

[vonBlashyrkh]

For the ongoing saves; you can specify a modifier using SAVEOE: # (Ex: SAVEOE: -2)
That's fine, but an incomplete solution. It will still involve adding that string to all current player abilities that have affects that end on saves and there's more than a few
It doesn't address being able to make a save at other times due to an item, feat or other reason.

Previously the duration box would change to a modifier box to the Saving Throw and would be clickable to roll that instantly.
Player 1,2 and 4 have this work as it now is. Player 3 may have a bonus to that particular save effect and could be added to that modifier box. Player 5 may get to save against it at the start AND end of their turn. How does this now work?

Some powers have an Aftereffect that require a Save and then after that save may apply a second effect depending on whether that save failed or succeeded. How is that now handled?


Modified the CoreRPG ruleset to allow "end of next turn" for all D&D rulesets. If it is the creature's turn in the CT, it will apply a duration of 2; otherwise, it will apply a duration of 1
I now also note that abilities sated to end of the CURRENT actors turn or the START of the actors next turn are also having the same issue, in that the CT ignores round durations and just sets it to 0

Problem #5
Effects that modify Skill rolls seem to be partially non functional.
Eg SKILL:5 will add 5 to a skill roll
But add any conditional to it eg, SKILL:5 stealth, SKILL:2 perception, item and so on the result is unmodified compared to the base roll.

[Moon Wizard]

Ongoing Saves

For those other save types; wouldn't these work? I actually specifically tested the second one at one point.
* Beginning and end of turn - "...; SAVEO: -2; SAVEOE: -2"
* Save with fail state and after state with another save - "...; SAVEO; FAIL; ...; SAVEO; AFTER; ...; SAVEO"

End of Turn Duration Missing

Just pushed another update that should handle adding duration of 1 to start and end of turn parsed effects going forward.

SKILL roll descriptors

Will investigate.

Thanks,
JPG

[Trenloe]

Problem #5
Effects that modify Skill rolls seem to be partially non functional.
Eg SKILL:5 will add 5 to a skill roll
But add any conditional to it eg, SKILL:5 stealth, SKILL:2 perception, item and so on the result is unmodified compared to the base roll.
Is this for PF2 or D&D 4e - I'd recommend making a separate thread for PF2 issues and keeping this thread for 4E issues so that there's no confusion.

[Moon Wizard]

Looks like it was 4E. Just pushed a hot fix to fix specific skill effects for 4E. Please run a new Check for Updates.

Regards,
JPG

[Smoosh]

Been monitoring this thread as I've been experiencing the same 4E issues.
Thanks ever so much for the End of Next turn feature its a step in the right direction.

It currently does the following:
1) With a blank duration in the effect and set to End of Next Turn, when applied to a creature on the combat tracker whose turn it currently is it grants a duration of 2 and works correctly.
2) With the same effect, from the same source, to a creature whose turn it not currently is, the duration is 1 turn and is removed as soon as the current turn ends.
3) The effect on the combat tracker says that the Decrement Duration Increment is at End of Round.

Just to add that the results are the same when Init Source is set to any of its three options: "Current Turn" or "Target" or "Self"

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[Moon Wizard]

@vonBlashyrkh,

Just pushed another update to fix up the maximization of the 4E base focus dice on a critical hit; as well as make brutal keyword use the built in client reroll.

Regards,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

@Smoosh,

I reworked the "endnext" effect application to use the source actor instead of the target actor. I think that should help. Please run a new Check for Updates to get the latest.

Regards,
JPG

[Smoosh]

Thanks for working on this.
Repeating the original scenario, the user (and current turn in initiative) has now got a duration of 1 (which is removed as soon as the current turn ends) and the target has a duration of 2 (which works correctly).

[Moon Wizard]

The ENDN is set to expire at the end of the applying actor's next turn.

Regards,
JPG

[Smoosh]

With End of Next Turn that is blank (or any number) this scenario occurs on my end:

A group of 4 enter a room and combat starts. Everyone rolls initiative.
Luckily Bob goes first.
Bob casts a spell that lasts until the end of his next turn on himself and the rest of the party.
His duration is 1. Everyone else has a duration of 2.
Bob ends his turn. Which ends the spell on Bob. This makes Bob sad.
Everyone else has the spell until the end of Bob's next turn.

Hopefully this description helps clear things up?

Thanks again.
No extensions, just the 4e ruleset.

[Moon Wizard]

Ahh, yeah, let me think about that. Thanks for the great, simple example. Will need to resolve the effect earlier in the process I think...

Regards,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

Just pushed a new fix that should handle that case. Please run a new Check for Updates.

Regards,
JPG

[vonBlashyrkh]

Is this for PF2 or D&D 4e - I'd recommend making a separate thread for PF2 issues and keeping this thread for 4E issues so that there's no confusion.


Sorry Trenloe, that was a 4e issue, now resolved.

I just had the one PF2 one (about the Resists) and included it here as I was running that game while still fiddling with the 4e campaign in the background

[vonBlashyrkh]

End of Turn Duration Missing
Just pushed another update that should handle adding duration of 1 to start and end of turn parsed effects going forward.


I don't see any change, I'm still getting a duration of zero if I give something a duration of 1 round and set it decrement at the end or start of a turn (see attachment).

[Moon Wizard]

Just pushed another hot fix that should address this. I tested that specific example. Please run a new Check for Updates.

Regards,
JPG

[vonBlashyrkh]

Just pushed another hot fix that should address this. I tested that specific example. Please run a new Check for Updates.

Regards,
JPG

Seems to work, just in time for tonight's session :)

[vonBlashyrkh]

Please sir, found another missing option

Under 'Rests' in the CT there is the option for Short or Long Rest. However, their was a third option previously - a Short Rest with Milestone, which has vanished.

This is quite important, as a every 2nd encounter gives a milestone which grants the player characters another Action Point and Daily Item Power usage and I see no way of being able to grant those benefits otherwise.

[Moon Wizard]

Just pushed hot fix to re-add that menu to CT menu button in 4E. Please run a new Check for Updates.

Regards,
JPG

[Smoosh]

Thanks very much for the fixes for 4e. They are greatly appreciated.
Since I've not seen anything mentioned about it, as vonBlashyrkh mentioned, the Effect Duration options have changed.

The new options available are RND, MIN, HR, and DAY. We used to have ENC for effects that lasted until the end of the encounter and would automatically be removed from the tracker when initiative is cleared. The obvious work around is to use the HR option but effects are no longer being automatically removed from the tracker when this occurs.

Further testing reveals that effects are not removed unless manually clicked on.
Effects that last an hour or even a day remain after any rest - short or long.

Thanks again.

[Moon Wizard]

You can change the expiration to "RESTS", instead of "START" or "END"; and it acts just like the "ENC" option used to.

Regards,
JPG

[vonBlashyrkh]

Hi, I've found a new bug for this session

Powers with an Implement keyword are not adding their enhancement bonus to damage rolls. The attack roll seems to be working and including the bonus from the implement line, crits are working as intended, but damage.... no idea why. Tried changing the Main Implement on the actions tab as well as assigning an implement to a power in the action tab, nada.

Powers with the Weapon keyword work fine

[Moon Wizard]

Thanks. Will take a look at early next week.

Regards,
JPG

[vonBlashyrkh]

We came across another issue during play this evening.

Critical hits in 4e should do maximum damage for a normal hit the power plus a a number of bonus dice granted by the weapon or implement used that are rolled, summed and added to that result
Criticals with Implement powers were correctly rolling maximum damage for the power, but the bonus dice granted from a magical implement for a critical were also being maximised instead of rolled

Eg if a power does 2d10 + ability modifier + implement bonus. On a normal hit it was rolling 2d10 + ability modifier

On a critical hit with an implement that adds 3d6 damage on a critical hit
It should be 20 (max of 2d10) + ability modifier + implement bonus + 3d6.
Instead we would get 20 (max of 2d10) + ability modifier + 18 (max of 3d6)

Again, Weapon powers were working just fine.

[Moon Wizard]

Just pushed fixes for both the implement damage bonus not adding, as well as the critical damage dice for implement powers. Please run a new Check for Updates.

Regards,
JPG