Feature Requests vs Features Added

[charmov]

Hi there, I recently saw the discussion in the discord test-feedback channel and thought I would chime in on the forum.

I am a big fan of the platform for my 5e games. There are, however, as we all know, issues.

I would like to know how the Feature request board is used by the developers. The most heavily requested features have yet to be implemented (auras, pointer targeting, multi-level maps, etc.) whereas you are adding features that are not as requested or not requested at all really. An example is the recent changes to Stories and the way Books navigate. Another issue with the Feature request is that its filters are hard to navigate and there are so many ruleset requests, maybe it should be separate from VTT features. Ruleset implementation is another area that at times seems neglected (e.g. PbtA). I myself have never used the 2.5d map tool you created, though it is neat. The online reader seems like it has potential, if I could edit my campaign on the go would be nice.

You have also added features to the 5e ruleset recently that I wasn’t aware of until it came up in game. The changes I noticed were that the Archery fighting style feat and heavy armour master feat are now automated, no need for additional effects for them to work! This is great. When I searched the wiki and forums, however, these changes weren’t documented. Correct me if I’m wrong but I would like to be made aware of when ruleset functionality changes and how.

The discussion in the discord was not pleasant to read and I don’t imagine new users to FGU would happen into that channel but the tone of that conversation could be a barrier to new users. I’ve seen similar discourse in more frequented channels, albeit rarely. Extension developers, whom are some of your most dedicated users, are important to my enjoyment of FGU. They have implemented a lot of the most requested features for the games I run and other games as well. I wish there were someway for the staff to better work with them and vice versa.

Anyhow, this isn’t meant to be mean-spirited or negative. I genuinely enjoy most of what you’ve done and been doing even if I question its usefulness to me; I’m not interested in more animated dice sets. Thank you for reading.

[Zacchaeus]

You'll find patch notes here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/filelibrary/patchnotes_ruleset.html Updates to the client and rulesets are announced here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?37-City-Hall And I believe replicated in the announcements channel on Discord. Fighting style automation was introduced in the update for the 2024 ruleset in September 2024 and the feat you mention in September last year.

The developers are very aware of the feature request list and things on that list do get incorporated into the program, and the list is used when considering forward development.

[LordEntrails]

I'll try to summarize SmiteWorks responses to questions like this in the past. I couldn't find the exact posts, but they are around here and probably in Discord from time to time as well.

The Feature Request list is only one source they use for evaluating what the community wants.
They have also said that for them to deploy something that already has a community extension (like auras etc) they would need to be able to make their functionality significantly better in some way.
They have also said that they have different people with different skill sets so often smaller things can get released without impacting the more complex things. (Like dice sets are easier for them to do and can be done by folks who can not do ruleset development or core engine enhancements).
They stated the changes to stories and navigation were required to support the Online Reader, one of the top voted requests.
Ruleset implementation is expensive with the former architecture. Last year they spend significant time improving the underlying architecture (and templates) so that rulesets would be easier to make, for them and the community. (My opinion: Even still, I expect rulesets to be uncommon as they are still expensive to make and for niche games often do not sell enough product to make their investment a good business decision.)
Besides the release notes Mr. Z linked to, and the social media videos, how would you suggest they communicate new features? (I do agree the wiki needs to be kept up to date, but it's labor intensive.)

(Note, I don't think your post comes across mean spirited or negative.)

[charmov]

@Zacchaeus @LordEntrails

Thank you both. I did go back and find the Feat implementation for "fighting styles" but there was no mention of Heavy armour master automation.

I follow the update forum but i guess i missed that there are release updates, ruleset updates, and updates to FGU itself all tracked somewhat separately. My second thing was to go to the wiki where I didn't find anything. I'm not sure, maybe in the ruleset forum pages themselves might actually be a better place to post them. Or pinning them to the ruleset discord channel might also work.

I'll believe when you say that the devs look at the feature request list and take it seriously. However, there is some skepticism on my part because the most heavily requested features have been there for years with no implementation, no word of progress. Even heavily requested features that come up nearly every week it seems get no traction; just today there was a post on discord politely asking for changes to the UI again...

I'm patient. I enjoy the games I play on FGU. No problem with the features that have been added although they don't serve any purpose I have. I hope to see more i guess is all I'm saying.

[charmov]

One more example I'll add is the Daggerheart ruleset. This has been changed to "in development." I get that some people want this ruleset, though even it's creators don't seem interested in playing it. It's based on PbtA, as is Draw Steel, and Blades in the Dark (plus many others). The apocalypse world ruleset had been a request before you changed the feature request board from IdeaInformer, on there longer than Daggerheart.

Platforms like foundry have support for a lot of PbtA games. All I've seen on FGU is a community extension for Dungeon World, which I don't play. I prefer Fellowship. There was a basic Masks implementation but that seems to have fallen off. If there are community rulesets for PbtA games that work I'd be happy to try them, if you could point them out.

I would like to use FGU for all the games I play. It makes it easier for me and my players.

[LordEntrails]

I agree that the new release features are not particularly well documented or easy to find if you don't know where to look. I actually have to do this type of stuff for work (Release notes, demand management, user requests) and it's tough. No matter what you do, a significant group of folks will never even know about them, while another set will think you include too much or too little. And the harder you try, the more time it takes up and seems to have little impact. I will say my latest attempt at this it to tie Jira into a custom Power BI report visible to my customer base. Can't say how well it's going to be received yet as it's new, but it's also a level of resources I would not expect SmiteWorks to have access to. That said though, SmiteWorks seems to be really good about listening at constructive suggestions.

(none of the below is intended to be arguementative or negative!)

So the top voted item, that has been there since the start and the two previous request lists; Multi-Screen Support has been discussed at length repeatedly. It's really simple, FG uses the Unity game Engine, And since SmiteWorks has decided FG will work cross platform (Windows, Mac, and Linux) and they have made the decision to only use libraries that support all three platforms (otherwise they would have to have 2 or 3 separate DevOps pipelines that would incur bugs and take more dev time. Moon Wizard checks on if their are any libraries that support all three platforms regularly, I assume once or twice a year. There are no libraries that are available (as of last report) that allow multi-windows on all three platforms. So that request is not yet technically feasible within reasonable expectations.

#2 Auras I already talked about. Their is a solution and SmiteWorks do not think they can substantially improve upon it.

#3 a character sheet printer. There is already one available on the forums, and though it's not very good (IMO), it gets very little use. From time to time their are third party solutions for this as well. They also require a unique solution for each ruleset, and break if you use an extension that changes the character sheet. I've voted for this request, but honestly probably have no desire for such anymore as I no longer have need of such.

#4 & 5 have extensions, last I checked.

#6 has a work around, though it's cumbersome. Have you seen this channel? CRW RPG Design - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@crwrpgdesign2929)

#7 I've also voted for

#8 has had this functionality for a decade, it's just not quite the same as requested.

#9 a similar improvement is in Test right now. Icons instead of colors, and not as fully functional as I would like, but a step in the right direction.

All that's to say, I don't see it as being as simple as saying high voted items are being ignored. It's complicated :)

[charmov]

Thank you for your candour and insight. Your comments are both informative and welcome. I understand that FGU works with limited resources and it is challenging to make even a few people happy, let alone everyone. I thought I was up to date with the release updates but i'll have to add the other platform updates to my watchlist too.

I'll check out that channel for some ideas on how to integrate the newer features into my games.

[snupy]

I agree that the new release features are not particularly well documented or easy to find if you don't know where to look. I actually have to do this type of stuff for work (Release notes, demand management, user requests) and it's tough. No matter what you do, a significant group of folks will never even know about them, while another set will think you include too much or too little. And the harder you try, the more time it takes up and seems to have little impact. I will say my latest attempt at this it to tie Jira into a custom Power BI report visible to my customer base. Can't say how well it's going to be received yet as it's new, but it's also a level of resources I would not expect SmiteWorks to have access to. That said though, SmiteWorks seems to be really good about listening at constructive suggestions.

(none of the below is intended to be arguementative or negative!)

So the top voted item, that has been there since the start and the two previous request lists; Multi-Screen Support has been discussed at length repeatedly. It's really simple, FG uses the Unity game Engine, And since SmiteWorks has decided FG will work cross platform (Windows, Mac, and Linux) and they have made the decision to only use libraries that support all three platforms (otherwise they would have to have 2 or 3 separate DevOps pipelines that would incur bugs and take more dev time. Moon Wizard checks on if their are any libraries that support all three platforms regularly, I assume once or twice a year. There are no libraries that are available (as of last report) that allow multi-windows on all three platforms. So that request is not yet technically feasible within reasonable expectations.

#2 Auras I already talked about. Their is a solution and SmiteWorks do not think they can substantially improve upon it.

#3 a character sheet printer. There is already one available on the forums, and though it's not very good (IMO), it gets very little use. From time to time their are third party solutions for this as well. They also require a unique solution for each ruleset, and break if you use an extension that changes the character sheet. I've voted for this request, but honestly probably have no desire for such anymore as I no longer have need of such.

#4 & 5 have extensions, last I checked.

#6 has a work around, though it's cumbersome. Have you seen this channel? CRW RPG Design - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@crwrpgdesign2929)

#7 I've also voted for

#8 has had this functionality for a decade, it's just not quite the same as requested.

#9 a similar improvement is in Test right now. Icons instead of colors, and not as fully functional as I would like, but a step in the right direction.

All that's to say, I don't see it as being as simple as saying high voted items are being ignored. It's complicated :)

Appreciate the information and contribution as always. With that said, having an extension which does it (sorta, or maybe very well) is VERY different from being natively implemented and officially supported. I don't think I need to argue the point, and problems with extensions have been discussed very often in the forum.

Honestly I find the argument "there is an extension so we are not doing it" to hold little if any water, and for sure features have been implemented which had extensions devoted to it in the past (not that I'm complaining abut it). "We are not doing unless we can improve on the extension" is nebulous and probably historically false. Also from my perspective even if it were the same code but officially maintained it would be better, so...

[Dax Doomslayer]

I would agree with snupy on this with regard to the "there is an extension so we're not doing it", sentiment. How many times does one have issues where there is a particular function the extension is adding which you really want but it conflicts with another extension that provides a different function you want and you need to choose if the conflict can't be addressed. Or perhaps, you don't have conflicts, but when FGU is updated, it plays havoc until the author of the extension has time to update it which depends if the author is still around to even do this. There's been many extensions that I purchased where the developer has disappeared.

[charmov]

@dax @snupy

I also agree with you guys. I suppose the logic is that they would rather spend what limited resources they have on features that don't yet exist (2.5d maps), or changing the platform to better accommodate future improvements (online reader / storybook changes). Again, these aren't necessarily features I am interested in.

The problem of extensions breaking with FGU updates could be handled better. The recent discord discussion referenced in OP is an example of how not to go about it. Native functionality for features like auras, pets, etc., would alleviate some anxiety for extension users when FGU updates. I have also experienced the clash of extensions which has derailed a session or two. We usually try to play through it by disabling extensions but then some of the things that were easy and automated become cumbersome and a hassle to do, subtracting enjoyment from the game and thus the platform.

It seems the only way to get the features you want is to put it on the feature request list and hope they deem it important and profitable enough to implement. Maybe advertise the features you've requested to get other users to upvote them?

[anstett]

I know if I wrote a bit of software for sale and some other company came along and took my code to incorporate it their own programing without paying for it I would not be happy.

I doubt anyone would.

Which is one of the reasons Smiteworks does not just take extensions and use them.

Developers can add explicit permissions in their code for how and who can use the extension.

There are extensions currently that could be fixed but permission has not been given.

[snupy]

I know if I wrote a bit of software for sale and some other company came along and took my code to incorporate it their own programing without paying for it I would not be happy.

I doubt anyone would.

Which is one of the reasons Smiteworks does not just take extensions and use them.

Developers can add explicit permissions in their code for how and who can use the extension.

There are extensions currently that could be fixed but permission has not been given.

And no one here has suggested they do that. Many a developer has said/wrote in past that they would be happy for Smite Works to use their code, and/or added licences to their code which explicitly allow for that. Also, SmiteWorks can (and I suspect would prefer to in any case) independently develop their own code to provide functionality which is also addressed by an existing extension, as they have done in the past.

[Agamon]

One more example I'll add is the Daggerheart ruleset. This has been changed to "in development." I get that some people want this ruleset, though even it's creators don't seem interested in playing it. It's based on PbtA, as is Draw Steel, and Blades in the Dark (plus many others). The apocalypse world ruleset had been a request before you changed the feature request board from IdeaInformer, on there longer than Daggerheart.

Platforms like foundry have support for a lot of PbtA games. All I've seen on FGU is a community extension for Dungeon World, which I don't play. I prefer Fellowship. There was a basic Masks implementation but that seems to have fallen off. If there are community rulesets for PbtA games that work I'd be happy to try them, if you could point them out.

I would like to use FGU for all the games I play. It makes it easier for me and my players.

Daggerheart is not PbtA, neither is Draw Steel. How did you come to these conclusions?

I get wanting more rulesets in FG. I want to play Marvel Multiverse in FG, but that doesn't make it PbtA...

[charmov]

@agamon

Never said it was PbtA. Their dice mechanics are based off of it, 2d+stat, with 3 tiered outcomes.

[Ghoti]

I'm just (a little) sad we don't have the ability to spin D20s ported into FGU from FGC yet. That was a fun easter egg and I miss it to this day.

[Jiminimonka]

I'm just (a little) sad we don't have the ability to spin D20s ported into FGU from FGC yet. That was a fun easter egg and I miss it to this day.

Ah... that old chestnut ;)

[Dax Doomslayer]

The one thing from FGC that my players always ask is the 'blue hue' whenever you used to rest the party. They seem to miss that!

[charmov]

Just thought I'd mention that the newest update didn't add any requested features. The chat and notification changes are kinda neat but i didn't see requests for those features. In addition there seem to be numerous issues being reported related to the new update.