Possibility to opt out of AI assets?

[SoftmintSheep]

Hello!
I feel I'm beginning to see AI be used more and more in fantasy grounds' marketing and default assets.
While I'm a huge fan of fantasy grounds and everything it's done for me, I can't help but feel guilty about the usage of AI in this kind of way.

If there's any possibility of opting out of these default assets or at least knowing the extent of how it's used that'd be nice. I've dug around and tried to see if I can find credits or sources to some of these assets, images or portraits.
If all of these default assets are completely human-made well egg on my face!

I'm fully aware this is a difficult ask and I'm aware of Fantasy Grounds' stance on AI already.
Hopefully this causes no problems x)

Thankyou,
SMS

[Trenloe]

Details here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?80634-SmiteWorks-Statement-on-the-use-of-Generative-AI-within-Fantasy-Grounds

[hanamcmana]

Details here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?80634-SmiteWorks-Statement-on-the-use-of-Generative-AI-within-Fantasy-Grounds

Hi,

Some of the links on that post no longer work - both the "OpenAI’s Ethics and Society" link and the "DALL-E and Creative Rights" link lead to 404 errors on the open AI website. Unfortunately that means there's nothing about the apparent safety of creators or about their ethics.

(Back in May 2024, they promised to offer artists a way to opt out of having their work used in dataset training, and it was promised that it would be done by 2025. It's now 2026, and I'm not sure it's ever coming. Is the cynic in me surprised that the Ethics page doesn't work? Absolutely not... )

In short... I'd really like a way to opt out of using GenAI Assets. At the very least, if you're officially partnered with OpenAI - I'm glad the software is now free to use. It's not something I want to financially support. Like many DM's, I'm a creative with lots of creative friends... And until there's protections in place for peoples livelihoods and hard work, I'm not interested.

[SoftmintSheep]

As a creative too, I agree. TTRPGs are an inherently creative endeavour and it's a shame to see GenAI crawling into my hobbies like this. My question was swept under the rug with a link that barely even covered the content of my post.
Without the transparency of how and where AI has been used and no ability to opt out of the assets I can't imagine myself spending much more on the platform or recommending it to my friends.
Thanks,

[Trenloe]

My question was swept under the rug with a link that barely even covered the content of my post.
Your question was not swept under the rug. This public thread is available to all to read, post and comment. I'm not an employee of SmiteWorks, all I did was point you to a post from the company that creates Fantasy Grounds regarding the use of AI. Sorry it didn't answer your question. Hopefully SmiteWorks will see this post and give some updates.

[ddavison]

I use AI personally to speed up my production, and I would encourage everyone to do so as a way to produce more efficiently. Most tools today include built-in AI features. We use Photoshop heavily, and it has numerous AI features now that draw upon its vast libraries of stock images. Any paid assets we post are marked if they use AI. There is one art pack we released in 2022 while our staff artist was sick and unavailable for an extended period of time, but all the art within the art pack subscription, other than that one, is drawn by our artist. I created a refer-a-friend advertisement while Adam was out on vacation for 3 weeks, and I used chatGPT to create a banner image for it that I further edited within Photoshop.

The pack in question is this one:
FG Fantasy Backgrounds
Released on October 31, 2022
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=SWKARTPACKFANTASYBG

The art for monster images and tokens for the SRD are AI generated and then modified within Photoshop. It is not a part of the art subscription and any of the graphics can be replaced. Purchasing the official D&D Monster Manual will supply the images provided by Wizard of the Coasts artists instead, but you have to pay for those. The same is true for Paizo Bestiary modules. Those are the actual art but they are purchasable modules.

Purchases of DLC and add-ons customers make directly support staff salaries -- you know, real people - artists, programmers, etc. Our art pack subscription is $4.99 a month, and it very directly supports an artist.

[hanamcmana]

I use AI personally to speed up my production, and I would encourage everyone to do so as a way to produce more efficiently. Most tools today include built-in AI features. We use Photoshop heavily, and it has numerous AI features now that draw upon its vast libraries of stock images. Any paid assets we post are marked if they use AI. There is one art pack we released in 2022 while our staff artist was sick and unavailable for an extended period of time, but all the art within the art pack subscription, other than that one, is drawn by our artist. I created a refer-a-friend advertisement while Adam was out on vacation for 3 weeks, and I used chatGPT to create a banner image for it that I further edited within Photoshop.

The pack in question is this one:
FG Fantasy Backgrounds
Released on October 31, 2022
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=SWKARTPACKFANTASYBG

The art for monster images and tokens for the SRD are AI generated and then modified within Photoshop. It is not a part of the art subscription and any of the graphics can be replaced. Purchasing the official D&D Monster Manual will supply the images provided by Wizard of the Coasts artists instead, but you have to pay for those. The same is true for Paizo Bestiary modules. Those are the actual art but they are purchasable modules.

Purchases of DLC and add-ons customers make directly support staff salaries -- you know, real people - artists, programmers, etc. Our art pack subscription is $4.99 a month, and it very directly supports an artist.

Hi, thanks for your reply.

That's not even the pack that got my attention honestly, it was was the SRD assets that I've never seen/noticed before.
(Without knowing if FG used GenAi before that, the style was a dead giveaway that it might be... As we're the uneven number of toes on the wyrmlings feet...)

As GenAi is something I personally don't want to support I was curious, and found someone else asking the same questions I already had.

I would like to ask for clarification on your closing statement however. This isn't to judge or pick a fight, I just want to communicate and understand your stance (and by extension, Smiteworks as a whole).

I'm a little confused because you mention the AI work is free, but the WotC DLC costs.. then talk about the art subscription.

Are you saying that buying GenAi DLC pays wages, and thus is a positive for staff and those that upload content for others?

Or are you saying that the Art Subscription doesn't include GenAi and so by paying for that instead of using the free GenAi assets I can still support artist wages?

[ddavison]

The official D&D assets do not contain AI. The art subscription does not contain Gen AI except for the one pack I mentioned from 2022.

The SRD modules do, but they are free assets which can be modified with your own art, built in letter tokens, or replaced entirely with paid official D&D modules that do not contain any gen AI.

Marketing assets primarily do not use gen AI, but we may include some in the future or from time to time - primarily when our main staff are unavailable.

[hanamcmana]

Okay, thank you for the clarification.

In regards to the art pack subscription, is there a rule that came into place after 2022 to not allow GenAI work to be submitted? Or is it more of a good faith agreement?

Edit: Because I forgot to ask,
Is the partnership with OpenAI still active? If so, what does it entail?

[LordEntrails]

Doug said earlier the reason the one art pack was done with AI was because their staff artist was on extended leave due to illness.

I assume that at that time since they had made a commitment to art pack subscribers they felt they had to put out something and had run out of prepped art from the staff artist they could use. I also assume given the stress of the situation finding another artist to do a single art pack wasn't feasible within the time limits.

[SoftmintSheep]

Bumping for an update on Hanam's edit because I'm curious too.
Otherwise thankyou for the responses.

[ddavison]

We actually did try to partner with a fill-in artist but it did not work out in time. Our preference is always for real artists whenever possible.

We don’t outright ban AI art. I don’t personally think all AI art is theft. I think “some” AI art is theft — and people using it that way know it. For instance, I don’t believe any of the AI art we did use for the SRD or marketing images looks like a copy of any artist’s works. Nobody can be familiar with all art that exists, but I have first hand knowledge of most bestiaries and monster books put out by both major and indie publishers and I feel 100% confident it is not ripping off anyone’s work. That said, AI art looks like other AI art.

Adam does our marketing and he does not use AI art. I believe he uses stock art libraries for anything custom, and art from products to advertise those products. If I have to make a throwaway banner image for marketing, I’m probably going to use chatGPT to give me a base image or two to work with. I’m not going to spend 5-6 hours drawing an image and compositing text. I almost never do the marketing images in the first place.

As for chatGPT, we don’t have a partnership. I have a $20/month subscription to it and I find it useful.

[seycyrus]

I too, would like to be able to opt out of AI assets.

[ddavison]

You simply need to ignore the SRD bestiaries or replace or remove the graphics for the monsters and tokens for those modules. We include simple letter tokens you can use if you prefer.

You currently need to choose to load those modules.

[seycyrus]

Sorry, but I thought that this thread was (at least tangentially) about being made aware of what products available for purchase were made with the use of AI.

[ddavison]

The product description should indicate if AI was used and if so, what engine. The only ones I'm aware of are the ones mentioned earlier in the thread, and their descriptions include that.

[RobboNJ69]

Along similar lines, I would like the option to opt out of any game material that was not produced using a traditional printing press. Several close friends of mine worked in the printing industry, and as PDFs, digital distribution, and virtual tabletops became standard, those businesses and jobs suffered. Digital games and digital assets have very directly replaced that labor and livelihood.

While we are at it, I would also appreciate a way to opt out of any artwork that was not created using hand-mixed pigments on canvas, applied with physical paintbrushes. Digital illustration software has undeniably reduced demand for canvas makers, brush manufacturers, and traditional painters. Even scanned artwork could be considered suspect, as scanners and image editing tools bypass entire supply chains of skilled trades.

Thank you for your consideration.

[SmackDaddy]

I just don't see things the way others do...and I am an amateur artist since I was a pre-teen and I see AI as a way to make some artists workload easier....this AI world is marching down the main streets of every aspect of society. Embrace or get left behind is my thought. As a DM, I am having to decide to pay an artist over $2000 to come up with individual party portraits and a single image of the party together.....

I am a hobbyist....not trying to be Critical Role. AI is my cheap ($20 per month) friend who helps me out and that is a far cry from $2000+ for a hobbyist to see his party "come to life"

I am not trying to make a living or profit from AI....I use it as a tool. Me and "The Void" (as Chat GPT is affectionately known in my world) co-DM my campaign per se and it only makes me get more and more INTO DM'ing and staying up until the wee hours when I should be in bed.

Having said that -- I respect those who want to make a stance (like vegans in a way)....I just don't agree. I am glad ddavidson doesn't prohibit it!!! *hats off to Doug*

[ddavison]

Wanting to support artists is a positive thing. We provide lots of ways to do that. Boycotting things is a stick approach, while directly supporting artists is a carrot approach. People can argue about the effectiveness of each approach, but I favor the carrot. I think it is way more effective and it generates a better environment.

[seycyrus]

Wanting to support artists is a positive thing. We provide lots of ways to do that. Boycotting things is a stick approach, while directly supporting artists is a carrot approach. People can argue about the effectiveness of each approach, but I favor the carrot. I think it is way more effective and it generates a better environment.

We have to know what is what, so that we can decide on the carrot or the stick. If there is no visibility, everyone will get the carrot by default.

[ddavison]

Agreed. The product descriptions should indicate if they do.

[hanamcmana]

As for chatGPT, we don’t have a partnership. I have a $20/month subscription to it and I find it useful.
EDIT: Forgot to add the hyperlink like a silly

I personally am glad to hear it - It's one thing for individuals to use it in there own time, but I was concerned that FGU/Smiteworks as a company was actively and formally working with OpenAI. In the post linked at the start of this thread (here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?80634-SmiteWorks-Statement-on-the-use-of-Generative-AI-within-Fantasy-Grounds)) there was a comment " In our efforts to integrate AI-generated art, we've chosen to partner with ChatGPT and DALL-E, which are developed by OpenAI, a leader in ethical AI research and development." which made me think there was a formal partnership!

Given that the other links on said post don't lead to anywhere on OpenAI's website, is it an idea to edit / update the statement? You can include some of the things you've shared here, like how it's not actively encouraged, how the marketing team might use it, and all but the 2022 art packs have been non-genai.

It might also be an idea to include that if people don't want to see the AI assets, they can either unload the SRD Module OR replace the images with the letter tokens. Teaching people how to avoid the AI they don't want to see wont negatively impact those that don't have a problem with it, and I think it might be a good idea going forward :)

Once again, thanks for all your replies. I know this can be a sensitive and inflamatory topic in current times, and I'm grateful we could have a civil discussion about it.

[HeckoX]

Agreed. The product descriptions should indicate if they do.
FG has released a slew of Token collections by Grim Press. All of these are made with Midjourney - by Grim Press' own admission - yet none of these products indicate in their product descriptions that they are made with Gen AI (apart from the title, the text is the same on every token collection):
66848

Midjourney is also infamously unethically trained, which is in direct conflict with SmiteWorks' statement (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?80634-SmiteWorks-Statement-on-the-use-of-Generative-AI-within-Fantasy-Grounds) about wanting to avoid using exploitative AI. Or is selling it through the official store not considered a conflict because the actual usage was done by another party?

[RobboNJ69]

FG has released a slew of Token collections by Grim Press.

I had no idea.

I don't look in the store very often and didn't realize they had Grim Press tokens available. Thanks for sharing!

[Jiminimonka]

The developers newsletter recently states any products that were made with AI assistance have to say so and also which AI was used.

It should also include Extension imo.

[ddavison]

FG has released a slew of Token collections by Grim Press. All of these are made with Midjourney - by Grim Press' own admission - yet none of these products indicate in their product descriptions that they are made with Gen AI (apart from the title, the text is the same on every token collection):
66848

Midjourney is also infamously unethically trained, which is in direct conflict with SmiteWorks' statement (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?80634-SmiteWorks-Statement-on-the-use-of-Generative-AI-within-Fantasy-Grounds) about wanting to avoid using exploitative AI. Or is selling it through the official store not considered a conflict because the actual usage was done by another party?

Thanks for the report. I will reach out to Grim Press and remind them of the requirement.

[Speculi]

In the post linked at the start of this thread (here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?80634-SmiteWorks-Statement-on-the-use-of-Generative-AI-within-Fantasy-Grounds)) there was a comment " In our efforts to integrate AI-generated art, we've chosen to partner with ChatGPT and DALL-E, which are developed by OpenAI, a leader in ethical AI research and development." which made me think there was a formal partnership!

Given that the other links on said post don't lead to anywhere on OpenAI's website, is it an idea to edit / update the statement?
This hasn't been addressed so far. Seeing that the links to any "ethical" development and how they (OpenAI) manage to adhere to "creative rights" are dead, doesn't spark much confidence.

Also so far I'm not aware of any LLM or diffusion model, which was trained exclusively on content explicitly licensed for that purpose, which makes them all at least dubious on the ethical level. Not going into the resource intense training and data center stuff...


The developers newsletter recently states any products that were made with AI assistance have to say so and also which AI was used.

It should also include Extension imo.
I agree with that statement.


I created a refer-a-friend advertisement while Adam was out on vacation for 3 weeks, and I used chatGPT to create a banner image for it that I further edited within Photoshop.
There are at least two images on the FG website front page which I would be 99.9% sure were made with AI ("Wiki" and "Forge" at the bottom) and some which I suspect but am less sure about ("Login or Register", "Download & Install" and "Play Your Way"). In my opinion at least the first two look relatively cheap and might drive away people who are opposed to AI to even start using FG.

(Also the not tiling background in the "Features - Free to Play" section doesn't look great, imho. But that's a different topic. Unless it was generated and nobody bothered to make it seamless...)

Also the store (and forge) could use a more prominent "made with AI" tag (similar to the LOS tag) to appease people who are concerned about this and don't want to support AI content.

[ddavison]

The original post linked to articles on the site that are no longer valid. I did look for where they may have been moved but could not locate them. Either way, I decided to leave the original post unedited, as it was written with the information that was present at the time of its writing.

I don't believe those two images were AI generated. Those were done early on when Adam joined the company and they were present at the time we were discussing which other images were AI generated -- the ones I mentioned already. Adam is no longer with the company, so I can't ask him... but I also don't think it is a good use of our time to go back and identify the sources of all images that are already on the website.

I've been filling in for Adam since his departure and so far I have been able to utilize original art from our partnered publishers for everything I needed in newsletters, banners, etc.

We don't intend to add new tags over top of existing store images. That information will be displayed in product descriptions for people who want to check on that.