Han Cluster - Feedback & Issues

[Arsilon]

Han Cluster setting guide should be releasing today on both Steam and on the Fantasy Grounds store. This initially is the Setting Guide. Lonewolf is working on the corresponding Campaign adventure that goes with it and it should be following soon as well.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/product.php?id=IPFGSWADEESGHCRPG

This thread is to give feedback and to report issues.

I made minimal attempt to try and automate some of the special rules as there was no definitive best way, in my opinion, to implement certain things. I figured it would be better to release it in more basic form and wait for feedback to determine if any consensus developed.

[RickSaada]

So I just picked this up, along with the Transcendence plot point, and there don't seem to be any archetypes. Were those not included in the port? I've got a deck of them, but I was hoping not to have to type all that in myself.

Hmm. The pictures of the NPCs aren't hooked up in the NPC records. For example Jose "Dispatch" Lopez doesn't have any pictures on his record, but if you go to Assets/Images/Han Cluster Transcend he's there. It's got an odd name. It looks like all the art got pulled from an advance digital copy and the page numbers are off.

Is the whole Nex vs Capped stuff implemented at all? If I put both normal and nex armor on a character, equipping normal amor changes toughness but nex armor doesn't. When being attacked by a nex attack (Say a Pahshra Phan), it still uses the player's toughness, even though it should ignore normal armor.

Actually, how do I say a player is Ghosted instead of Capped? Without that all the special mechanics would be impossible to deal with. You'd need to be able to flag a character in one state or the other, and have a separate X-Toughness and such.

Hmmm.

[Arsilon]

Sorry for the delay in reply but I was out of town at a work conference this week.

If this is in Transcend, I'll have to see if the other developer has seen this. I did the setting guide.

As for the Archetypes, I don't know if those were in the list of things that were converted but as they appear to be a separate item, perhaps not. I'll have to see about that as well. Worst case, these are pretty easy to import manually without having to retype them all fully (which may be why they weren't ported standalone). Assuming they have not and will not be ported I can help you sort out how to manually import them if need be.

As for the rules, there was a little debate on if/how to automate some of the special rules like Ghosted, etc. The conventional wisdom at the time was to set up a copy of characters as there is not real good way to toggle character state for abilities, skills and inventory. The slippery slope is once you try and automate one thing, other things fall apart. If you can think of good ways to automate it further, we can use this thread to discuss.

As you're playing with it you may come up with some good ideas on ways it might work better, so feel free to offer up your thoughts and insights.

[RickSaada]

No worries, I realize FGU is a side gig for most people!
To be honest, I gave up and returned the product. Given Steam's ridiculous 2 hour period to use a DLC before you can no longer return it, I didn't want to be stuck with $50 of product. I couldn't even use FGU for anything *else* without it making it invalid to return.
The Archetype cards were something I got with the Kickstarter, so it's possible they weren't in your pile of stuff to do. Having to type them in is annoying but still easier than creating/leveling a character from scratch. It was trying to do that work, though that showed me the whole problem with Ghosted vs. Capped. Not only would you have to have two completely different characters, which you'd have to swap on and off the combat tracker as characters switched, but you'd have to track all the penalty math yourself. Given that the nex-Armor *wasn't* changing toughness, even that approach is broken.
Honestly, keeping track of all the persnickety math is what I want FGU to handle for me. I would have expected there to be a "Ghosted" trait similar to "Prone" and X-Range and X-Melee damage types. Being Ghosted would give you reductions to normal damage, and give you off axis penalties to non-ghosted targets. I'm not enough of a FG wizard to know if the existing stuff supports this, but without it the bookwork is pretty heinous.
Given that I appear to be the only person to try this, it may not be worth the effort to try and make it all usable, but I'm worried anyone else who tries will find it problematic as well.

[Arsilon]

Well for future reference there are tools that make it relatively simple to import things vs having to type them in yourself. You just copy and paste then click a button, clean up any errors due to formatting, etc.

As for the math....here is the fundamental guideline that helps in figuring out where and how automation might work.

1) Remember that FGU is a digital representation of what would otherwise be done at an actual table with pen and paper
2) Where things are deterministic and always true then automation becomes possible -- HOWEVER, when deterministic requires understanding of game state, if you're talking to a police officer, then...; or if its a Tuesday, then.... etc. ---- So its not sufficient that something is deterministic...it also needs to be something the game engine can inherently understand about condition, situation, etc.
3) Sometimes automation is WORSE than just doing the math yourself -- if it requires the player or GM check 8 things, toggle 4 more, etc. you could have already just done the math yourself just like you would have had to do if playing the product live with pen/paper.
4) And even then, we try not to override core game functions if at all possible -- some settings and adventure modules push those boundaries and sometimes compromises can be found, sometimes not as you don't necessarily want to completely re-write core game logic if at all possible.

It's through this lens that we have to look through to determine whether or not its worth it to even try to automate something vs. create extensions that make it easier vs. having to rewrite something fundamental to how FGU works, how the SWADE ruleset works, how the setting rules then work, then how the Adventure Module is meant to work.

I am pretty sure that everyone that currently develops content for the store are GMs and Players as well so they understand why automation is helpful. But they also try to find a balance between making things easier for GMs/Players and how much automation is possible and where automation creates more load in things you need to tell the automation than what the automation saves by adding 1+1 for you.

Some titles push that line more than others.

[Jiminimonka]

Can you have a Ghosted Template to add whatever Ghosted does and then a reverse of that Template to remove it?

[Arsilon]

Can you have a Ghosted Template to add whatever Ghosted does and then a reverse of that Template to remove it?

I wish. Currently there is no way to 'reverse' a template once its been added. This was what I had originally asked for when discussing templates with Mike. But the overhead to have to manage memory of all the changes then figure out how to reverse them was problematic.

[Jiminimonka]

I wish. Currently there is no way to 'reverse' a template once its been added. This was what I had originally asked for when discussing templates with Mike. But the overhead to have to manage memory of all the changes then figure out how to reverse them was problematic.

Yes there is. You make a template that does the opposite of the one already applied.

[Arsilon]

Yes there is. You make a template that does the opposite of the one already applied.

the template would need to be dynamically created as there is no way to keep it 'current' and if thats the case, is that really any easier/more difficult to just make a copy of the character?

[Jiminimonka]

I don't know enough about the setting so assuming you thought this through.

Making a copy and adding both to the CT and putting them on the same card - or making the "Ghost" version an Ally?

[Mike Serfass]

This is similar to shape change.
Templates kind of help, but don't quite do the job.
Sorry to say it again, but shape change is on the list. I'll work with Arsilon (and other creators) when I get to this so I can come up with a solution that will address the shape change power, lycanthropes, shape shifters, supers, and whatever else needs some way of having two swappable stat blocks for a single character.

[Lonewolf]

This is similar to shape change.
Templates kind of help, but don't quite do the job.
Sorry to say it again, but shape change is on the list. I'll work with Arsilon (and other creators) when I get to this so I can come up with a solution that will address the shape change power, lycanthropes, shape shifters, supers, and whatever else needs some way of having two swappable stat blocks for a single character.

Not in the case. This is a special setting rule. In this setting Players have TWO character sheets. Each one with different inventory and abilities. FG fully supports this already. A player can switch character mid game as required. Each one will have it own unique tokens as well. A player can be a normal real world character. Or instantly teleport to another galaxy to be appear as a Ghost. If inventory is not specially upgraded it gets left behind. The setting only allows one of these characters to be awake at any time.

The change of inventory means items that do not travel need to be stored some place. With dual character sheets this easier to manage. For example Armor carried armor and weapons can change between combat rounds.

With two chracter sheets, there is no need for any more automation that applying one single combat modifier. -2 to hit and -4 damage. See Part 4 of the utube explanation of the setting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBEmiaW2AyM&list=PLo7pWxBimzC5tTmDAsuHUV3BUybxDebpG&index=5)