PF2E Lore Questions

[Tempered7]

As I keep reading dry DnD rules, more and more I crave actionable lore that is purely escapism unlike Forgotten Realms lore. Let me explain:

I don't have any knowledge about PF lore besides what Owlcat TL;DR'ed in the video games. But from 3.5 ed DnD times, I know all the places and races, etc that Ed Greenwood produced are based on real word (don't ask me what is what though, it's been decades). My question is:


Is the lore of PF2 based on real world or pure escapism?
Are PF1 lore and PF2 lores completely different? Or similar?

As you can guess I'm in search for an escapist (pure fun, nothing that's in the current history) lore in a ruleset.
I can only buy 1 ruletset's books which will take some months. So, which ruleset has as little ties to current world "timeline/events" as humanely possible?

Just saying this / that / none is enough, no need for details.

EDIT: Jump to Real World Analogies of PF World Map (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?85148-PF2E-Lore-Questions&p=745499&viewfull=1#post745499).

[Tempered7]

This is what I'm talking about btw: https://www.reddit.com/r/Forgotten_Realms/comments/oh3jle/comment/h4phaev/

OldHookline's comment on reddit, it goes waaay back.


Something I found very useful is a list someone made of real world parallels to the areas in Faerun.


Aglarond: Baltic States, Latvia and Lithuania....
Amn: Renaissance Spain
...

[MaxAstro]

There are actually lots of areas in Golarion that have clear real-world parallels or are based on real-world mythology, yeah. Ustalav for example is very heavily inspired by Romania in general/Translvania in specific, and by the worlds of Mary Shelley, Bram Stoker, and their ilk.

Then you have Galt, which is a parallel to the French Revolution; Taldor is inspired by the British Empire; Osirion is basically just fantasy Egypt, etc.

Regarding 1e vs 2e, they are the same setting/lore, but 2e is set a decade later and takes into account events of various 1e published adventures. So for example the nation of New Thassilon exists in 2e but not in 1e because it was created towards the end of 1e's run. Same thing with Lastwall being the Gravelands instead because it got destroyed by the Whispering Tyrant (who is an open threat in 2e vs caged up in 1e).

With that said, the rule books are mostly not inseparable from the lore. If you wanted to completely separate from the Golarion lore you would need to come up with new deities, but other then that you could use the core rules for another setting easily. The setting books are a separate line of books entirely.

Player Core or GM Core are probably the best places to start, rulebook wise.

EDIT to add: If you want the parts of the setting that are the most uniquely "Pathfinder" with fewer real-world ties, I'd look at the area around Varisia, the island Absolam is on, and the whole Nex/Geb/Alkenstar area. While Varisia has some obvious inspiration from Romani culture, it's also the part of the setting that has gotten the most attention and thus the most fleshed out. Absolam/the Isle of Kortos is probably second most fleshed out, and then Nex, Geb, and Alkenstar are some of the most fantastic regions that don't have clear real-world parallels, being a mageocracy, a nation of undead, and a steampunk city respectively.

[Tempered7]

There are actually lots of areas in Golarion that have clear real-world parallels or are based on real-world mythology, yeah. Ustalav for example is very heavily inspired by Romania in general/Translvania in specific, and by the worlds of Mary Shelley, Bram Stoker, and their ilk.

Then you have Galt, which is a parallel to the French Revolution; Taldor is inspired by the British Empire; Osirion is basically just fantasy Egypt, etc.

Regarding 1e vs 2e, they are the same setting/lore, but 2e is set a decade later and takes into account events of various 1e published adventures. So for example the nation of New Thassilon exists in 2e but not in 1e because it was created towards the end of 1e's run. Same thing with Lastwall being the Gravelands instead because it got destroyed by the Whispering Tyrant (who is an open threat in 2e vs caged up in 1e).

With that said, the rule books are mostly not inseparable from the lore. If you wanted to completely separate from the Golarion lore you would need to come up with new deities, but other then that you could use the core rules for another setting easily. The setting books are a separate line of books entirely.

Player Core or GM Core are probably the best places to start, rulebook wise.

EDIT to add: If you want the parts of the setting that are the most uniquely "Pathfinder" with fewer real-world ties, I'd look at the area around Varisia, the island Absolam is on, and the whole Nex/Geb/Alkenstar area. While Varisia has some obvious inspiration from Romani culture, it's also the part of the setting that has gotten the most attention and thus the most fleshed out. Absolam/the Isle of Kortos is probably second most fleshed out, and then Nex, Geb, and Alkenstar are some of the most fantastic regions that don't have clear real-world parallels, being a mageocracy, a nation of undead, and a steampunk city respectively.

It sounds like this is normal parallels to the world (more fiction than today's politics), which was what I was looking for escapism. That's a relief.
Thank you so much for the clarification! :) Then I will buy the first core in 15 days in steam sales.

I remember when I read 3.5 ed lore books, my imagination would be filled with million ideas for hooks and plots. It will be so refreshing to start reading new lore after d&d 5e burnout.

EDIT: "Varisia, the island Absolam is on, and the whole Nex/Geb/Alkenstar area." Noted.

[MaxAstro]

The lore of Golarion is actually really cool in my opinion - a lot of love and passion has been put into it and it's clear that the writers at Paizo really love their setting.

That said, depending on what you call "politics", Paizo may or may not be the company for you. They are unabashedly *****, huge supporters of the LGBT community, and unafraid to put *****/diverse characters into their setting (for example you mentioned playing the Owlcat games - if you played Wrath and exhausted Anevia's dialogue, you may have learned that in addition to being a lesbian, she is also trans; that's not something Owlcat added, that's right from the original adventure).

I wouldn't say they really put politics into their setting - you aren't going to find heavy-handed diatribes on progressivism or anything like that - but if you are shying away from WotC because you feel Wizards is "too woke", it's fair to let you know that Paizo is more woke that Wizards could ever dream of being lol.

Personally I think that's great, but it does rub some people the wrong way I guess.

OH! And speaking of Wizards, there is one major "retcon" in the setting that happened that may be confusing depending on what books you read.

Because of the whole thing that happened with the OGL, Paizo switched to using their own license. As a result, they had to retcon a lot of things out of the setting that Wizards owns. So for example in older books you will have references to drow, but newer books don't have drow because Paizo can't use them anymore. Other then having to deal with that Paizo tries really hard to keep their lore consistent and never retcon anything.

EDIT: Huh. Apparently the "q" word is filtered on this forum. I had no idea. I know it gets used as an insult sometimes but I almost only ever hear it anymore as an umbrella term for the LGBT community.

[Tempered7]

I wouldn't say they really put politics into their setting - you aren't going to find heavy-handed diatribes on progressivism or anything like that - but if you are shying away from WotC because you feel Wizards is "too woke", it's fair to let you know that Paizo is more woke that Wizards could ever dream of being lol.

Ouch :D That and other things that reminds me real world what was what I'm trying to escape from LOL. Thanks for openly warning me. I normally wouldn't care, even find these kind of settings to think about today's world as I often did in my past solo games but you know, burnout is no joke. Wish they didn't force it so much.



The lore of Golarion is actually really cool in my opinion - a lot of love and passion has been put into it and it's clear that the writers at Paizo really love their setting.


Yeah it seems so. It's like all the previous fantasy fiction from Merry Shelly to modern in 1 setting, like D&D but with its own, fresh style.



OH! And speaking of Wizards, there is one major "retcon" in the setting that happened that may be confusing depending on what books you read.

Because of the whole thing that happened with the OGL, Paizo switched to using their own license. As a result, they had to retcon a lot of things out of the setting that Wizards owns. So for example in older books you will have references to drow, but newer books don't have drow because Paizo can't use them anymore. Other then having to deal with that Paizo tries really hard to keep their lore consistent and never retcon anything.

If the drow is under other names like dark elf that wouldn't be a problem but if it's completely missing, that would be a huge part in terms of story potential in "dark" fantasy style.



EDIT: Huh. Apparently the "q" word is filtered on this forum. I had no idea. I know it gets used as an insult sometimes but I almost only ever hear it anymore as an umbrella term for the LGBT community.

Np, I got it. As I said, I wouldn't mind if I didn't get burntout of all those things that reminds me real world. I just think fantasy should stay as fantasy if it's not deliberately fantasy version of real world.

I appreciate our talk btw :) I played Wrath of the Righteous but with a mod that removes everything that does not belong to a fantasy world so I didn't see those things.
Still, I'll buy and try make do with my own Solo methods. Lore = Whatever I say it is :D

EDIT: I found my next target thanks to you; Nex (for my main solo plots) & Alkenstar (I was already on the fence in between Eberron modules and PFRPG 2).

[MaxAstro]

The drow, along with other iconic Wizards things like chromatic and metallic dragons, are completely removed from the setting.

There are cavern elves that live underground, but they bear no resemblance at all, physically or culturally, to drow. Which I do think is slightly a shame because I really like the drow, but I blame Wizards.

On the other hand I think the removal of the "standard" dragons ended up actually being a really good thing, because the new types of dragons Paizo replaced them with are really cool and interesting. The various "red dragon because fire, green dragon because poison" was pretty overdone, but the divine, arcane, primal, and occult dragons are all really unique takes on the concept that you don't see much in other settings.

I will also say that if you think LGBT characters "don't belong in a fantasy world", definitely avoid the wider Pathfinder community lol you will not get along with us. XD

[Tempered7]

The drow, along with other iconic Wizards things like chromatic and metallic dragons, are completely removed from the setting.

There are cavern elves that live underground, but they bear no resemblance at all, physically or culturally, to drow. Which I do think is slightly a shame because I really like the drow, but I blame Wizards.

Same, they are overly protective of their copyrights. Drows are the main source of dark fantasy for me, especially when I wanted my noob PC's to do some underground delves. Let's see how this will work out. Change is good I guess.



On the other hand I think the removal of the "standard" dragons ended up actually being a really good thing, because the new types of dragons Paizo replaced them with are really cool and interesting. The various "red dragon because fire, green dragon because poison" was pretty overdone, but the divine, arcane, primal, and occult dragons are all really unique takes on the concept that you don't see much in other settings.

Those seems like great ideas to explore! Especially divine / arcane / occult line. Can't wait to use them in my plots!



I will also say that if you think LGBT characters "don't belong in a fantasy world", definitely avoid the wider Pathfinder community lol you will not get along with us. XD

:D No worries, I'm a solo player with strong traditions but despite my convictions, I accept everyone and their opinions as is; each as their own world, or as a "story book". So I get along with most people, even if the people are hostile to me. Let me explain:

Solo = no social interaction for a looong-arse time, which makes you more understanding to all people. What I like the most is finding out about how opinions that differ than mine affect the style of gaming (like a scientist would examine). Not just for gaming, but for every other opinion than the same old boring opinions I have. But unfortunately, I just take the path with the least resistance nowadays.

Storyteller Soloists (like me) tend to collect stories of people with each appreciated individually for its own sake. But again, the world has changed and the least resistance means less interaction with people. Lgbt characters don't belong in my fantasy worlds 'cause I don't relate. But that doesn't mean I don't read about them in other people's campaigns / in fiction to learn their pov. That was, until they are force-fed everywhere with the same outline; I already know it, and don't care for more of the same.

Thank you MaxAstro, I appreciate you for taking time to guide me honestly beyond the lore itself :) Already started to dig into wikis and taking notes; my eyes caught some other targets (Varki & Iblydos) as well. Since the lore has diverse fictional hooks to explore and I'm gonna change things to my own needs anyway, it's time to "move into Golarion" :D

Hoping to have more heartfelt discussions like this one.

[Tempered7]

Btw a quick question, if you don't mind:

Which base lore book do you recommend to be used in one-shot adventures (1 mission = 1-3 sessions) that revolves around a main guild and a rival guild that sends / race hirelings (PCs) to dungeon exploration + wealth/item collecting?


Lost Omens Character Guide,
Or Lost Omens: Pathfinder Society Guide.

Note: I can only buy 1 of these. After cores > Lost Omens World Guide & Treasure Trove are already in the list.

[MaxAstro]

I think that depends entirely on if you want to use the Pathfinder Society specifically in your adventure. If you do, the Society Guide is pretty indispensable. On the other hand, it's not a very useful book for anything except the Pathfinder Society specifically, as basically all of the lore it introduces is tied to that organization.

The Character Guide is going to have more options and settings outside of the Society specifically.

[Tempered7]

I think that depends entirely on if you want to use the Pathfinder Society specifically in your adventure. If you do, the Society Guide is pretty indispensable. On the other hand, it's not a very useful book for anything except the Pathfinder Society specifically, as basically all of the lore it introduces is tied to that organization.

The Character Guide is going to have more options and settings outside of the Society specifically.

Oh, then it is best to buy Character Guide for famous characters and create my own (rival) guilds. Thanks once again. Whislisted.

[Tempered7]

Real World Analogies of PF2E Geography

This list of geographic regions & nations in PF2E is taken from Tvtropes. They are based on different genres of fantasy with real world parallels (both in geography & literature) with the exception of few city states. PF2E writers did quite a job to obscure the real world names of these city/region names which makes it hard to trace them back to literature. My edits are in parentheses.

Interactive Map: https://map.pathfinderwiki.com/#location=0.84/0/0

NEW EDIT --Also from TVTropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConstructedWorld):


Golarion again is loosely based on Earth: Avistan corresponds to Europe, Garund to Africa, and Casmaron to west and central Asia; however, East Asia is represented as a separate continent called Tian Xia, which has an ocean separating it from Casmaron but is connected to Avistan via a land bridge across the north pole. The continent of Arcadia is Mesoamerican-flavored, though with a technological level similar to the eastern supercontinent (think warriors wearing feathers and jaguar skins over chainmail). The other planets in Golarion's solar system are also detailed somewhat (the elf species originated on one of them and migrated to Golarion by portal), and become significantly more important in the Science FantasySpin-Off Starfinder (set several thousand years in Pathfinder's future).
/end of the new edit.

Absalom is Jerusalem mixed with Rhodes/Cyprus.
Almhult is Iceland. (But there is a city in Sweden with the same name.)
Amanandar is Hong Kong.
Andoran is the early United States.
The Arcadians are Native Americans, and so are the Shoantinote though the Shoanti are also influenced by Robert E. Howard's Picts. (But the word Arcadia comes from the hunter king character Arcas, and in Greek mythology it was the home of the gods Hermes and Pan)
Bachuan is, of all places in a fantasy setting, a fusion of China and North Korea.
Brevoy and Iobaria are medieval Russia.
Cheliax can be seen as some weird form of devil servants
Druma is Switzerland. (Rich Dwarven Merchants with "Kalistocrats" hehe)
Dtang Ma is Thailand and Malaysia.
The Erutaki are Inuit. (Char naming conventions follow the Iniut name sounds.)
The Forest of Spirits is ancient Japan, by way of Princess Mononoke.
Galt is revolutionary France. (Ripe with plots where vigilante NPCs, bards/poets dabble in political intrigue... No idea what Galt really is though. Except for a city in California. Maybe sounds like Celt?)
Goka is Macau fused with Singapore. (Macau was formerly a Portuguese colony, I wonder if they reflected it? PF2E Equivalent of Portuguese isn't on this list.)
Hongal and Shaguang are Mongolia. (Semi-nomadic life in tundras.)
Hwanggot is Korea. (The exact origins of Korea goes back to 40.000 BC and are therefore a subject of both myth and historical record. But the founding of Hwanggot corresponds to another empire's fall: Imperial Yixing.)
Iblydos is ancient Greece. (Lovely imagery for it in the wiki)
Irrisen is the fairy tale version of Russia (Baba Yaga!)
Jalmeray is a fantastic Indian version of Socotra island. (Which is a Yemeni Island in the Indian Ocean. / Nex's archmage who bears the same name with his city has grift relations with the domain owner of Jalmeray: . Ripe with exotic plots in East Asian setting)
Jistka was a less successful Rome mixed with Carthage. (The first human kingdom to establish itself from the ashes of Earthfall.)
Kaladay is the medieval European conception of China. (No one from the Inner Sea visits them and they don't visit the Inner Sea. Kinda pointless, IMO).
Katapesh is Arabia.
Kelesh is Persia.
The Lands of the Linnorm Kings are Scandinavia.
Lung Wa and its many Successor States are China.
Minata is Indonesia and the Philippines. (A massive archipelago.)
Minkai is Japan and so is Shokuro, with the difference being that Minkai is a bit more fantastic and Shokuro a bit more feudal. (Fortunate that PF2E core rules has class archetypes for both)
Molthune is Prussia. (Heh, they kinda have a similar fate)
The Mwangi Expanse is Africa.
Ninshabur "was" Babylon/Assyria.
Osirion is Egypt. (Obviously, from Osiris)
Qadira is also Arabia with some Persian influences. (Finally a name with definition. Qadira is a girls name which means "capable".)
Sarusan is Australia. (Hmm, I'm having strange signals from 4 yrs ago that read S.O.S)
The Shackles are the Caribbean.
Taldor is the Byzantine Empire.

(EDIT: According to MythKeeper in YT, Taldor is more like the early Roman Emp. as first founded, even though its starting place corresponds to Byzantine side instead of Rome. In another note, their language Taldane is [was?] 'common' as called in D&D settings.)
Ustalav is fantasy Transylvania.
Valenhall is Vinland (was an area of coastal North America explored by Vikings).
The Varisians are the Romani (Gypsies).
The Varki are Sàmi (Lapland natives).
Vudra is India. (Vudrani are subservient to the almighty emperor maharajah which in turn has/had grift relations with Nex).
The Wall of Heaven is Nepal.
Xa Hoi is Vietnam and Khmer Empire.
Zi Ha is Tibet.


WOW! EDIT: I was today years old when I learned that our planet Earth (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Earth_(planet))is also a canonical planet in the multiverse of Pathfinder/Startfinder as a distant world in a galaxy far away from Golarion's solar system. But the date there is still in 1920s.

[Tempered7]

(Note: I made edits to post above)

@MaxAstro: I watched videos from MythKeeper. You made me so happy by literally pinpointed what I was trying to setup (background for rival guilds & item hunt) by mentioning Nex/Geb/Alkenstar area. :) The story there is incredible and more than what I asked for! Nex is like Thay in D&D but with more allure (to my eyes). Geb is also like Thay but with undead shenanigans that goes beyond Thay's "necromancers wanna turn everyone undead. Why? Because!" They are at an endless war, it's perfect for both sides to send hirelings to gather items for their own advantage in the war. Not to mention neither Archmage Nex, nor the Ghost King has any connection to real world. Chef's special for escapism. :>

Though, based on how factions info spread over many books in two rulesets (PF1/PF2) I couldn't find a single book/edition that includes only Nex/Geb/Alkenstar factions in great detail. I mean, with all the people and history of their factions.

* Impossible Lands has the lore for the area but I don't know if it has enough info for detailed factions.
* I have no idea if there are any factions of Nex/Geb/Alkenstar in Lost Omens: Character Guide.
* Ditto but with Lost Omens: World Guide.
* Chronicles: Faction Guide (PF1) might have faction info for these cities but for their past. Probably isn't compatible in PF2 ruleset.
* Any other related modules that I'm not aware of?

So, my question is to both loremasters like Max, and official PF module makers:

Which 2 modules in which version (PF1/PF2) I should buy to get all the info of the factions and world knowledge of Nex/Geb/Alkenstar (including the firearms) for I can't buy more than 2 to prevent bankruptcy ? :D

[MaxAstro]

For Geb specifically the absolute best source of that kind of detailed information is going to be the Blood Lords adventure path, which is entirely set in Geb and deals heavily with the region's politics. I'd read the descriptions of each book and grab the ones that seem most likely to deal with relevant subject matter.

Unfortunately there hasn't been, to my knowledge, an adventure path set in Nex (there honestly aren't even many adventures set there at all yet) so I'm less sure about that one.

There is an adventure path set in Alkenstar, though, Outlaws of Alkenstar, so one of the books from that might be helpful as well.

Also yes, Earth has been a canonical location ever since the Reign of Winter adventure path, which involved a trip to Earth (to kill Rasputin none the less). I don't know if you discovered this yet, but the current ruler of the nation of Irrisen is Anastasia, as in missing-princess Anastasia Romanov, who was brought to Golarion from Earth as part of that adventure.

Also fun fact - Since Paizo keeps Golarion's calendar synced with Earth's calendar (current Earth year is 2025 so current Golarion year is 4725 and in-world Earth year is 1925), in a little over a decade if Pathfinder is still around it will be completely valid in lore to travel to Earth to kill Nazis! XD

[Tempered7]

Oh, so Adventure Paths also have lore info, that's what I completely overlooked. Blood Lords & Outlaws of Alkenstar -noted. I assume Blood Lords is ripe with so much intrigue and Outlaws of Alkenstar could produce some great rebel stories against Nex. Or at least I'd use them that way. Too bad there is no AP in Nex, I'd imagine it would produce such magical stories.

I had no idea there was an AP with Rasputin as BBEG, let alone real world historical figure brought to fictional world. PF is getting more and more interesting for me than D&D can ever be. So it involves past history of Earth instead of today's current state, and it's also perfect for thinking about famous historical figures. Solo sessions will be awesome! And bringing Earth characters into Golarion... You just opened an endless portal for me to create my own histories! Strange that I never did that before despite I invented a method for using TTRPGs as irl problem solving method.


Also fun fact - Since Paizo keeps Golarion's calendar synced with Earth's calendar (current Earth year is 2025 so current Golarion year is 4725 and in-world Earth year is 1925), in a little over a decade if Pathfinder is still around it will be completely valid in lore to travel to Earth to kill Nazis! XD

Ohh, the possibilities and all those myths that surrounds them! Wolfenstein with Alkenstar guns vs lugers but as TTRPG! xD Spies, occultist magic, soldiers and stealing Nazi artifacts or die trying. In fact all those real world urban myths now gained a different meaning and usage now that you mentioned. And you know what, instead of escapism, now I can even create humorous stories about some people in my own country's history. :D *rubs hands*

/EDIT: Blood Lords AP 5: A Taste of Ashes seems the perfect one for its info on city's secret defense installations & trade routes.
And Outlaws of Alkenstar AP 3: The Smoking Gun for the gun factory and western movie goodies <3

Oh boy, this setting will bankrupt me :D

[MaxAstro]

Yeah, all of the APs have a fair bit of lore info - both in the adventure itself, and in supplemental materials towards the back.