To Hit Modifiers for Weapon Types

[PaulChatterton]

I am trying to set up a true representation of 1E using the Classic D&D base with the OSRIC extension. One of things that's missing from the OSRIC extension is the set of hit modifiers for different weapons against different armour types. I've had some success setting this up with automated effects on weapons and armour, but I'm struggling with shields. This is what I have so far, none of which seem to work. Does anyone have any idea how to implement this?

Shield, Large:
ATS

Plate:
IF: Custom (ATS); AT2
IF: Custom (!ATS); AT3

Quarterstaff:
ATK: 1
IFT: Custom (AT2); ATK: -8
IFT: Custom (AT3); ATK: -6
IFT: Custom (AT4); ATK: -4
IFT: Custom (AT5); ATK: -2
IFT: Custom (AT6); ATK: -1
IFT: Custom (AT7); ATK: -1

Unfortunately, while this seems to work with shield equipped (total ATK -7), it doesn't work work with shield unequipped (total ATK +1).

I have also tried

Plate:
IF: Custom (ATS); AT2
IF: !Custom (ATS); AT3

(shield equipped - total ATK -13, shield unequipped - total ATK -5)

Plate:
AT3
IF: Custom (ATS); AT2; REMOVE: AT3

(shield equipped - total ATK -13, shield unequipped - total ATK -5)

Plate:
AT3
IF: Custom (ATS); AT2; REMOVE: Plate; AT3

(shield equipped - total ATK -13, shield unequipped - total ATK -5)

Plate:
AT3
IF: Custom (ATS); AT2; REMOVE: Plate;AT3

(shield equipped - total ATK -13, shield unequipped - total ATK -5)

[Zacchaeus]

I'm unfamiliar with this ruleset but you can't use the ! character as a logical negative in anything other than a damage string (Such as RESIST: piercing, bludgeoning, !magic). Also the CUSTOM word must be all capitals.

[PaulChatterton]

I've tried putting CUSTOM in all upper case but that makes no difference. I didn't think it would because that part of it didn't seem to be broken, but I tried it just in case. I also see now that the REMOVE: instruction is part of a couple of extensions, one for 5E and one for 3.5/PF1, but I doubt there's one for 2E/1E. Without a way to negate an IF or to remove a custom effect, I'm struggling to see how to implement this little part of the AD&D rules, so I'm still looking for ideas. Is it possible to access the value in the Shield box in the character sheet, or Base AC come to that?

[Zacchaeus]

As I say I'm unfamiliar with the mechanics, but normally if the target has a shield they'll have a bonus to their AC for that shield. If a weapon can attack a target and negate the shield or in some way gets a bonus or a negative to attack a target with a shield then IFT: CUSTOM(Shield); ATK: x will work. (An effect of Shield would need to be on the target of course). If the target doesn't have a shield then the IFT will fail and so a normal attack will be made. I think you might need to give us a concrete example of what the mechanics are so that we can maybe see a way to doing what you want.

[PaulChatterton]

Unfortunately, the mechanic's not that simple. In AD&D 1E, each weapon has a different modifier depending on the base AC, in addition to the -1 for a shield, e.g. for a Quarterstaff

AC 2 = -7
AC 3 = -5
AC 4 = -3
AC 5 = -1
AC 6 = 0
AC 7 = 0
AC 8 = +1
AC 9 = +1
AC 10 = +1

So quarterstaff vs. plate (AC 3 base), the shield makes a difference of -3, vs. leather (AC 8 base), a difference of -2, and with no armour (AC 10 base), the shield makes a difference of -1. For a different weapon, the modifiers are different.

Back in the day, I think most people ignored this rule because it was too complicated, but I saw FGU as an opportunity to implement it automatically.

[Zacchaeus]

Yeah, that is complicated. The problem is that you can't test for what the target is wearing in terms of armour and whether they have a shield or not. So your going to have to faff with a lot of modifiers in order to automate it. It's probably easiest just to have a bunch of simple ATK: -x or AC: +x that you can place on the target to account for whatever they are wearing. So if the total penalty is going to be -5 then you have an ATK: -5 ready to place on the one doing the attacking for that attack or put an AC: 5 on the target.

[PaulChatterton]

I don't think it can be done that way because it depends on combining armour, weapon, and shield. No matter how you look at it, you have to be able to consider both the armour and the shield to determine which weapon bonus/penalty to use.

[PaulChatterton]

I think I've fixed it using the IF NOT - Untrue Effects extension and changing the ruleset to Any. This gives an IFN tag for If Not.

Shield, Large
ALS

Plate:
IF: CUSTOM (ALS); AT2
IFN: CUSTOM (ALS); AT3

[PaulChatterton]

Just when I thought I was there, I have come across a major performance issue, and it doesn't make sense.

I have two characters, let's call them A and B. A has a longsword, plate and shield, with automated effects for each. B has just a quarterstaff, with automated effects. When either attacks the other, FGU freezes.

If I unequip the target's weapon, it's fine, even though all the equipped effects added when the weapon is equipped relate to attacking only (ATK: or IFT: ). Similarly, if the weapon is equipped but I disable the effects, it's also fine. If I enable the equipped effects one at a time, the performance starts to degrade after about 3 or 4 enabled effects, despite the fact that the effects are not relevant to the target.

[Zacchaeus]

I suspect that one or more extensions will be the problem. Especially if you are using one which wasn't written specifically for the ruleset you are using.

[PaulChatterton]

I don't think it's that. The effects that are causing the trouble include only things that are standard across all rulesets - ATK: and IFT:. If I unequip the target's weapon, which still leaves all the effects that use the unsupported extension, it still works fine. even though the equivalent effects are on the attacker too.

[Vackipleur]

Hi,

I also tried to use effects to simulate weapon bonuses or maluses depending on armour in my current AD&D1 campaign and gave up :)
Too many effects and it slowed down FGU.
If you really want to use this rule, I suggest you make your own "AD&D Combat Computer" (you can easily find it by searching on a search engine and it's not a computer software) with a "Brad" and give the bonus or malus for the attack out loud to the players. It's much faster...

[PaulChatterton]

Thanks for the advice. Actually, I nearly got it working. If the players only equip their weapons to roll their attacks, it works. The problem is that, if they have their weapons equipped all the time, there are huge performance issues when they are defending.

I tried ticking the ActionOnly box in the weapon automation but, unfortunately, that didn't seem to transfer to the Combat Tracker.

[epithet]

It seems to me that if you want to use the weapon vs. armor type rule in FG, the easiest way to do it is to create effects for your armor types (eg: AT Leather; AT Chain; AT Plate; etc.) and then have your weapon bear effects relating to those effects.

There is no way to do this without a lot of work, but presumably once you get it all set up you'll just need to make sure that everyone on your combat tracker has the appropriate AT effect and it will resolve itself.

Personally, this is one of those things I'll ignore until I can task my personal DM AI assistant with keeping track of it. I already feel bad enough about making my players wait while I futz around with tokens and stuff.

[PaulChatterton]

Yes, that's how I've done it. It all should work in theory but a performance issue is causing it to freeze.