Need a real rollback option to defend against these updates

[Keltyrr]

With updates getting pushed out that constantly break stuff, and not having the option to pick our version, it's rapidly starting to make fantasy grounds less attractive.

I play and DM for several groups. I've bought fantasy grounds for 4 other DMs before the price drop. We have many interconnected groups that includes at LEAST 30 people. If any one person hits the update button we are all forced to update or kick that person out of 2-3 games, basically telling them that they are no longer welcome to play with ANY of us because they updated.

Forced updates that seem to add nothing of value, while breaking extensions constantly. It's almost to the point that an FGU update is grounds to cancel all games for a week.

[LordEntrails]

This comes up from time to time. SmiteWorks has made it clear they do not have a large enough team to maintain multiple versions of FGU, nor deal with the issue inherit in multiple versions.

The only time everyone is forced to update when one person updates is with a network change, and this is indicated by a version change from 4.X.y to 4.X+1.0. These changes happen maybe once per year. The Host will always push their version of FG to the clients. Yes it will give you a warning (version mismatch) but it's informational only.

You 100% have control of if you update or not. If you like the version you are on, then don't update. You can even make your own copy of your application directory and then if you do update (or purchase new content that you need to Update to obtain), then you can restore the old version whenever you want.

Use of extensions mean you accept the risk inherit in them breaking when FG updates. Ruleset or application updates are made available to extension developers in advance during the public beta phase. Some developers are able to take advantage of this and it provides enough runway for them to have updates to there extensions ready. Others can't or don't.

I've trained my users not to update unless I tell them to. And since our games are on Wednesdays, I rarely have the time to test a ruleset and the extensions I use between release and game night. So we are usually a week behind on doing updates. Works for us.

[Lo Zeno]

You 100% have control of if you update or not. If you like the version you are on, then don't update.
Except when you want to buy a new module, like, say, the new 5E Monster Manual. Because in that case, you can't buy it unless you accept that you're going to update the application once you want to download it.
And making copies of the application directory is something that a lot of people don't feel confident enough to do since it means "touching" the Program Files folder which users have been conditioned to think it's a scary place.

It seems to me that every time we talk about updates, everyone dismissed the fact that content purchases are tied to updates. So no, we don't have 100% control on whether to update or not, and we won't have it at least until content updates are separate from application updates.

[LordEntrails]

Except when you want to buy a new module, like, say, the new 5E Monster Manual. Because in that case, you can't buy it unless you accept that you're going to update the application once you want to download it.
And making copies of the application directory is something that a lot of people don't feel confident enough to do since it means "touching" the Program Files folder which users have been conditioned to think it's a scary place.

It seems to me that every time we talk about updates, everyone dismissed the fact that content purchases are tied to updates. So no, we don't have 100% control on whether to update or not, and we won't have it at least until content updates are separate from application updates.
I did not dismiss "the fact that content purchases are tied to updates". You even addressed the solution I mentioned. And admittedly you brought up a good issue with it "is something that a lot of people don't feel confident enough to do".

So, how to address that? Some ideas;

Well, would detailed instruction on how to backup and restore make a difference? It might for some, but I don't think it will for everyone.
Another solution folks don't like to hear is don't use extensions if you are not willing to assume the responsibilities and "work" that go along with it.
Don't allow the community to create extensions or mods, since most issues arise from updates breaking extensions. Except I don't think anyone is going to want this.
Require extension developers to use the beta test and sign-off their extensions are compliant with updates or they get disabled in the Forge. Except this is a lot of work for the extension devs and more would then just use something other than the Forge to deploy their extensions. So that doesn't work well.
Stop all updates to the FG rulesets or application. I certainly don't want that.
Try to get SmiteWorks to support multiple release versions? This doesn't work well (how would this actually even work?) and is expensive. A cost for minimal gain SW has said they are not willing to incur.


So what suggestions am I missing? What would your recommendation be or which of the above would you support?

[Jiminimonka]

I update constantly and play 2-3 times weekly. But I don't use 90 extensions, maybe 10 or 12.

On the one hand we get forum post complaining FG needs to be updated and then people complain about updates....

[Lo Zeno]

So what suggestions am I missing? What would your recommendation be or which of the above would you support?
You're missing the one that I wrote: separate content update from application update.

If all I need is to download the 5E Monster Manual, which doesn't require to add a new ruleset to my FGU installation, I shouldn't need to update the whole application, all the extension etc etc.

That way people can decide to stay on a specific version until all the kinks of FGU and their extensions are ironed out even if they buy the latest Pathfinder handbook that they were looking forward to.


I update constantly and play 2-3 times weekly. But I don't use 90 extensions, maybe 10 or 12.

On the one hand we get forum post complaining FG needs to be updated and then people complain about updates....
More often than not, it's the base functionalities of FGU that break. Things like being able to drag tokens, lock movement, line-of-sight and occluders, layers, etc. So while using fewer extensions helps, the 4.6.0 release showed that things get ugly anyway.

[HywelPhillips]

I'm not to going to say that there isn't a problem here.

But I will say that my experience is more like Jiminimonka's. We update every week, two groups, 11 players. We have never once in four years needed to abandon a game session due to FGU updates. Sometimes an extension will stop working; we deactivate it until it is fixed.

Occasionally we have a week where someone hasn't had chance to update. They can usually connect OK but sometimes they experience issues (typically a lot of lag) - logging out, doing the updates, and reconnecting mostly fixes this or they just get the GM to roll for them this week while they are away in a hotel with crappy wifi or whatever.

We also run with only a handful of extensions, and mostly run well-supported rulesets (mostly 5E and SWADE, bit of Vaesen).

People who are running lots of extensions: is it mostly the Pathfinder folks? What is it that's breaking all time to mean that they have to exclude players from their games? Is there a way to narrow down the conditions that cause people to experience this as an issue, and maybe see if there's something that can be done for those specific cases?

Because as I said the I've never lost a session to it myself.

Cheers, Hywel

[LordEntrails]

You're missing the one that I wrote: separate content update from application update.

If all I need is to download the 5E Monster Manual, which doesn't require to add a new ruleset to my FGU installation, I shouldn't need to update the whole application, all the extension etc etc.

That way people can decide to stay on a specific version until all the kinks of FGU and their extensions are ironed out even if they buy the latest Pathfinder handbook that they were looking forward to.
I totally went off chasing a squirrel didn't I?
This idea might work in many cases. But it doesn't always work. Such as with the New 5E DMG. That required updates to the ruleset. So what do you do here? Specify a minimum version and then not allow the download if it's not updated? That code is possible, but it will also impact update performance. And then how do you address support tickets? So many folks already don't know what version they are on but with the universal updates you can generally assume folks are current. If that's not the case anymore, how much increased support load from people running into issues that have been fixed since they last updated 6 months ago?

None of this is impossible to overcome. But there are issues. Its not just as simple as saying separate updates. Besides, how many folks are actually updating because of purchases? I don't know about anyone else, but I only tend to make FG purchases a couple of times per year.

Second, how is any of this better than people just not updating until a few weeks after a release and their extensions have been updated and any major version bugs have been hot fixed? I guess coming from a s/w engineering applications background, it's natural to me never to update immediatley following a release. It's just good practice to wait some period of time and let others be on the bleeding edge.

[Castellanox7]

People who are running lots of extensions: is it mostly the Pathfinder folks?


Nah, it's anyone who needs to use something that has been asked for since 2020 on the forums and is the top requested feature (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/featurerequests/featurerequests.php?titlesearch=Auras), and SW's upper management ignoring their own tools.

[LordEntrails]

Nah, it's anyone who needs to use something that has been asked for since 2020 on the forums and is the top requested feature (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/featurerequests/featurerequests.php?titlesearch=Auras), and SW's upper management ignoring their own tools.
You do know they have many "tools" they use to prioritize right? Plus their are other considerations than just what the Feature Request list prioritizes right?
I admit I'm surprised this one has trickled to the top by now, but I also don't think I know the pros and cons or the cost of implementing this one request.

[Jiminimonka]

You do know they have many "tools" they use to prioritize right? Plus their are other considerations than just what the Feature Request list prioritizes right?
I admit I'm surprised this one has trickled to the top by now, but I also don't think I know the pros and cons or the cost of implementing this one request.

Plus it has been implemented it already via an extension. https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/620/view

[Castellanox7]

You do know they have many "tools" they use to prioritize right? Plus their are other considerations than just what the Feature Request list prioritizes right?
I admit I'm surprised this one has trickled to the top by now, but I also don't think I know the pros and cons or the cost of implementing this one request.

Yeah, generally such tickets fall under "keeping the lights on", "new ruleset/ruleset refinements" and "new development". Considering how SW works with people to do the first and the second (and considering how I know SW does QA), the third should be pulled from the request tracker, because otherwise, why have it in the first place? I'm sure it's a subscription fee or additional cost that they've eaten just so they can put on the veneer of "listening"--but they're going to ignore.

Also considering these aren't the UI changes, nor is it the most-requested thing people have been asking for since classic.

[Lo Zeno]

This idea might work in many cases. But it doesn't always work. Such as with the New 5E DMG. That required updates to the ruleset. So what do you do here? Specify a minimum version and then not allow the download if it's not updated? That code is possible, but it will also impact update performance. And then how do you address support tickets? So many folks already don't know what version they are on but with the universal updates you can generally assume folks are current. If that's not the case anymore, how much increased support load from people running into issues that have been fixed since they last updated 6 months ago?

EVERY solution will require some work - so what, does that mean that since there's always some work to do to implement it then we keep the problem alive instead? Is that seriously the conclusion?


So many folks already don't know what version they are on but with the universal updates you can generally assume folks are current
That is the one advantage of universal update, yes. And I argue that the constant issues following updates, especially considering the load of issues that 4.6.0 brought, including Moon Wizard's own admission that that release was not up to the standard that they aimed for, and the plethora of hotfixes that they had to rush out to fix basic functionalities... It doesn't look like it's much better than the picture you paint about support having to deal with multiple versions. Really doesn't.

As a sidenote: versioning and dependencies are not rocket science, and it's an established pattern that the entire software production of the modern world uses. Yes they increase somewhat the workload to a release, but the benefits trump the disadvantages.
And "it impacts update performance" is really the least of the problems, since update is performed outside of gaming time, so it's a non-issue.

[Castellanox7]

Plus it has been implemented it already via an extension. https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/620/view

An extension, which is not first party code, and is liable to get broken--much the same way homebrew and third party things in RPGs lead stuff to be broken. SW could've analyzed the code and bought it out from Rob, but they didn't. Instead, that attitude of "someone else will fix it" leads to updates such as the last few.

[LordEntrails]

*shrug* I'm really not interested in re-debating this issue that has been discussed a dozen times before in detail. In no way was I attempting to lay out all the options or consideration. My point was only to show that all options have complexity. Some more, some less. I have to do those types of analysis for work, I'm not going to do them here, especially when I don't have access to the critical and proprietary information that would be required to make an informed analysis.

[Cyrian]

The fact that this has been discussed a dozen times before in detail indicates that this has been such a frustration for a dozen people that they felt the need to come to the forums to make their own post about it, in addition to anyone adding comments or not posting their frustrations at all. Maybe that's not a large number, but I would suppose that there are a lot of people who simply don't post anything. Negative feedback shouldn't be met with hostility, especially when the same negative feedback starts to pile up.

I myself run all my games with zero extensions these days because it's easier for us to play smoothly with expected results rather than have automation break and figure out what might or might not be working. I'm for sure missing out on the wonders that extensions bring, and miss the ones I used to use, but remain hopeful some of those get incorporated into the game. Auras, as mentioned, is a huge one.

[MrDDT]

With updates getting pushed out that constantly break stuff, and not having the option to pick our version, it's rapidly starting to make fantasy grounds less attractive.

I play and DM for several groups. I've bought fantasy grounds for 4 other DMs before the price drop. We have many interconnected groups that includes at LEAST 30 people. If any one person hits the update button we are all forced to update or kick that person out of 2-3 games, basically telling them that they are no longer welcome to play with ANY of us because they updated.

Forced updates that seem to add nothing of value, while breaking extensions constantly. It's almost to the point that an FGU update is grounds to cancel all games for a week.

What exts are broken if you don't mind?

[MrDDT]

Plus it has been implemented it already via an extension. https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/620/view

You linked to the wrong one, that is AURAs Visualized, they are talking about the AURAs basic.

[MrDDT]

The fact that this has been discussed a dozen times before in detail indicates that this has been such a frustration for a dozen people that they felt the need to come to the forums to make their own post about it, in addition to anyone adding comments or not posting their frustrations at all. Maybe that's not a large number, but I would suppose that there are a lot of people who simply don't post anything. Negative feedback shouldn't be met with hostility, especially when the same negative feedback starts to pile up.

I myself run all my games with zero extensions these days because it's easier for us to play smoothly with expected results rather than have automation break and figure out what might or might not be working. I'm for sure missing out on the wonders that extensions bring, and miss the ones I used to use, but remain hopeful some of those get incorporated into the game. Auras, as mentioned, is a huge one.

Personally, I run with 70+ exts. I've not had near as many issues as you are saying you are having. I also happen to know what those exts are doing, so if I have an issue. I turn off that ext and do it the basic way.

I think having the option to have 3rd party mods/exts is major plus factor for FG. It's very powerful to have people able to use so much of what FG does within a 3rd party ext to make it stronger. Of course we all want the 3rd party mods/exts we use all the time to go core. But I don't expect all of them to be that way.

Fantasy Grounds has been doing a great job on adding in core features. AURAs personally is going to be one of the hardest ones to put in out of all the features I've ever seen done by a 3rd party.

I've had many GMs work together running a same world campaign with dozens of players all playing in the sandbox with those GMs using exts. It's not as bad as you are saying. Each ext adds risk, some are more risky than others.

People come to the forums to report bugs and be upset is mostly what you read on any forum. You rarely see posts about someone just saying "Thank you, love your program".

Why is it discussed so many times (which really isn't that much) it's because people want what they want.


Personally the biggest most important thing FG needs is UI overhaul to make it easy to use. Not more features.

[Lo Zeno]

[...]this issue that has been discussed a dozen times before in detail.[...]

And yet it keeps being discussed, and that by itself is a pretty strong signal that it should be addressed. This is by no means an attempt to continue a discussion with *you* specifically, but a hope that those who are in the position to make this decision start to reconsider their analysis of costs and returns for their current strategy. As I said, my main concern is not even the extensions that break but it's the fact that basic functionalities especially regarding LOS, token selection, token movement and occluders break between updates coupled with the impossibility to stay with a specific working and tested version if I need to update a module that received a fix or purchase new ones unless I want to move onto the bugged out version.

And I try to be proactive when discussing issues within FGU by suggesting possible solutions. Separating content updates from application/extensions/rulesets updates is, from what I can tell, the best compromise between cost of development and usability returns, (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/featurerequests/featurerequests.php?titlesearch=Separate%20updatin g%20software%20from%20modules)because while not perfect as you highlighted it would allow people to stay on a stable version while being free to purchase content and play for a vast number of cases, even though it does not cover 100% of the cases. And that's already MORE than what the status quo allows. So, that link is clickable for those who think it's worth a vote.

[Castellanox7]

especially when I don't have access to the critical and proprietary information that would be required to make an informed analysis.

You'd do no worse an analysis than the status quo, supposedly with these "critical" bits of information.

[HywelPhillips]

There is already a PREV build channel. Does reverting to that fix issues eg with extensions by rolling back? I've never actually used it myself so I have no idea how "previous" or robust it is.

I wonder if that could be replaced or supplemented with a STABLE channel? Updates to STABLE should be rolled out at most once every six months, and any major changes to FGU or CoreRPG and the rulesets should not be rolled out to stable until a considerable number of months have passed and the bugs have been shaken out. Sure, you might have to live with typos and minor errors and the sort of small bug fixes that are released every week not happening for six months. But the lack of updates means you can be sure your game won't break more often than every six months too.

That would seem to be an intermediate solution which preserves fast turnaround and fast releases for those of us who don't experience frequent breakage, but avoiding going to a full versioning and dependencies system (which in my experience leads to a far worse average experience over all users than having just one supported release on LIVE does and which is undoubtedly a ton of extra admin and work for devs).

It would probably still allow content downloads for the most part, unless any new releases relied on features only in LIVE- might happen, but usually won't. You might need to wait six months for 2024 ruleset updated 5E... but that's what you get for choosing to run in STABLE, presumably your use case is a running campaign on existing rules anyway, right?

I don't know if this is viable but it might give an option for the folks for whom the glowing update button is an ever-present game-wrecking danger?

Cheers, Hywel

[Keltyrr]

This comes up from time to time. SmiteWorks has made it clear they do not have a large enough team to maintain multiple versions of FGU, nor deal with the issue inherit in multiple versions.

How many team members does it take to deposit a set of files into a repository then not touch them again?

There are one many indy devs that operate programs in which multiple versions can be accessed and maintains for years. Doesn't require extra team members for them to do it over the span of years and years. Why would it require smiteworks to devote extra team members when that's not required of other dev teams over the past several decades?

If I want to play version 1.12.1 of minecraft and get the mods related to that, I can get the Minecraft version through a drop down menu. And same for forge, and for each and every one of the 50+ mods I might want to play with any given time. How many extra team members and employees do these unpaid hobby programmers have to employ to maintain the dozens or hundreds of different versions of their works?

None. The answer is none.

There is no reason that Smiteworks can't have a dropdown menu in the settings to pick which version I want so that I can get a version that's compatible with the extensions that I want. Smiteworks already has versioning in the back side of the FG forge where I can see several past versions of the content I've uploaded. So seems they are already part way there.

[Keltyrr]

There is already a PREV build channel. Does reverting to that fix issues eg with extensions by rolling back? I've never actually used it myself so I have no idea how "previous" or robust it is.

The PREV option takes you back to the most recent update. Meaning if Smiteworks puts out an update at 10am, finds out it's got some major bugs, and puts out a hotfix at 11am, then the PREV will take me to the 10am version it would seem. Not to the previous week's update.

[Moon Wizard]

That is not the case.

The Previous channel is used for major version bumps of the main application client (i.e. 4.5 to 4.6). In fact, v4.5.10 is still in the Prev channel now, even though v4.6 was released several months ago.

Hot fixes are typically applied in-line to fix specific items in a current release.

Regards,
JPG

[HywelPhillips]

The PREV option takes you back to the most recent update. Meaning if Smiteworks puts out an update at 10am, finds out it's got some major bugs, and puts out a hotfix at 11am, then the PREV will take me to the 10am version it would seem. Not to the previous week's update.

Which definitely leads me to put forward my suggestion for at the very least a STABLE channel.

EDIT: Moon Wizard's post suggests that PREV is used in something like the sense I am advocating here - bumps of the main application client.

But a simple version-stamped roll-back-able download option as Keltyrr suggests from a drop-down menu sounds like it really ought to be doable?

The issue with versioning is usually not that of the core software, it is of all the dependencies especially in external stuff like extensions. But if they've already got versioning in the Forge, that handles the most tiresome of the dependencies for the majority of cases going forward. It won't help people still running extensions from elsewhere, and it won't guarantee the 70 extension crowd don't get breakages. But it will certainly stop some muppet hitting check for updates and breaking everything for the whole group because he can't roll back to the same version-stamped state as everyone else.

Cheers, Hywel

[Jiminimonka]

We are going around in circles. This has been discussed for years...

[Keltyrr]

We are going around in circles. This has been discussed for years...

Yes, and the need for it continues to grow, not reduce.

[Jiminimonka]

Not really. Everyone whines after an update for a few days then extension devs update to what was shown in Test and silence returns.

[jharp]

With updates getting pushed out that constantly break stuff, and not having the option to pick our version, it's rapidly starting to make fantasy grounds less attractive.

I play and DM for several groups. I've bought fantasy grounds for 4 other DMs before the price drop. We have many interconnected groups that includes at LEAST 30 people. If any one person hits the update button we are all forced to update or kick that person out of 2-3 games, basically telling them that they are no longer welcome to play with ANY of us because they updated.

Forced updates that seem to add nothing of value, while breaking extensions constantly. It's almost to the point that an FGU update is grounds to cancel all games for a week.

I have a tough times with these posts because I built an extension specifically to help address this problem and only 12 people were interested enough to buy it. I even offered to bulk sell for groups but no bites. So....

[Keltyrr]

I have a tough times with these posts because I built an extension specifically to help address this problem and only 12 people were interested enough to buy it. I even offered to bulk sell for groups but no bites. So....

I was/am unaware of your extension, and based on your posts near the beginning of this month it seems it's to late for me discovering it to matter.

[Lo Zeno]

Not really. Everyone whines after an update for a few days then extension devs update to what was shown in Test and silence returns.

I'm happy for you that you don't hear the noise.

[Jiminimonka]

I'm happy for you that you don't hear the noise.

It's a gift :p