4.6 Issue - Recurring Frequent 'freezing' with Maps opened

[Artrem]

First off, I am not well versed in programming, so my apologies if terminology is off.

I looked for a similar thread with issues seen after updating and I did not see a similar thread. Apologies if already addressed or recognized.

Since updating to 4.6 there is a persistent freezing that occurs approximately every second or so when maps with LOS and tokens are opened. This was not present prior to updating to 4.6 (been on the same map for past 2 sessions prior to 4.6 upgrade).

I updated Fantasy Grounds about 90 minutes prior to this posting and still having the issue.

I created a quick YouTube video to demonstrate what is occurring as I may not be explaining it well. I did have extensions within our campaign, which have been removed but no improvement was noted after removal. The beginning of the video shows the current campaign with no extensions enabled.

At the end of the video (2:40ish), you'll see that I created a fresh campaign, imported my PC's characters, opened same map from FGU princes of the apocalypse campaign as well as inserted the encounter and still had frequent freezing when the map was open.

This 'freezing' that is being seen occurs during any activity as long as a map image is open. It occurs with typing, opening any entries, dice rolling, clicking on items, or typing into chat or creating entries.

Video: https://youtu.be/nDLQDvAXJE0?si=R0r3CwgadSZZezCb

I included a link to zip of current campaign: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JfXRv6Uz8bZ7cZNOi5ugcxZ_aKwLIh6V/view?usp=drive_link

I included a link to zip of fresh (Test) campaign: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H6XnSW5V9sQNUfeBHi0pFmgHR8k1wSyo/view?usp=drive_link

Thanks for taking a look and hope it helps find the issues. If anything else is needed, just let me know.

Artrem

[ThirdSign]

I'm seeing this too in a PF2e campaign with Season of the Ghosts: The summer that never was, Player Core/GM Core loaded. Extensions are PF2e GM Enhancements and clock adjuster

I attached the campaign folder. The map I have open is (Map) Downtown Willowshore

[Sybarite]

We are also having this issue since the update and it makes the platform nearly impossible to use.

[Justanevildm]

I am having the exact same issue since the Tuesday 19th update. If more then one map is open the computer will crash and freeze. This was not a problem on Monday the 18th

[Moon Wizard]

@Sybarite, @Justanevildm,

We just pushed a hot fix release (in the last half hour) that should help with maps that exceed the recommended sizes (>4Kx4K). Please run a new Check for Updates on the Live channel, and let us know if you're still seeing an issue.

Regards,
JPG

[Artrem]

@Moon Wizard

I wanted to follow up with my original post since you had only addressed the last two individuals in this post (unsure if the fix was also for myself and @ThirdSign). I appreciate the attention to all the issues with this patch. This last hot fix has significantly improved what I had shown previously in the video. It has returned to performance of prior patch. There has always been a slight millisecond delay intermittently prior to this patch which is tolerable and barely noticable. That is where it is currently.

Today's campaign test video: https://youtu.be/KbH25XOLPtc



As a side note, you identified that this hot fix release was to address maps that exceed the recommended sized (>4Kx4K). The maps I am using in this campaign (and the test campaign I created) are the default maps for FG conversion by @Zacchaeus of Princes of the Apocalypse on Fantasy Grounds store (converted in 2015). This is the second time I have run this module (first was in FGC in 2016 (https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrusDYmAo5daeSV2vrWlCNFANGtL57OMU&si=hRZE5IAnIEQIl0Gi)

If the maps are too big for FGU (>4Kx4K), why are they in the official modules by smiteworks or not better optimized (i suspect they are not webp since it was converted a long time ago)?

If it was a custom map, I'd understand, but I thought all the official modules were made within the parameters for module conversions and the store? (https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/2037547009/Developer+Guide+-+Product+Guidelines)

This is why I use the default maps with all the products I've purchased from Smiteworks. If I make a homebrew campaign with my own images, I assume all responsibility.


Maybe Smiteworks owner, @ddavison should direct individuals to work on older products to clean up their quality and/or reduce the pricing for future customers who are unaware of the un-optimized products that are now being sold.

Salty? yes, as it's implied that the issue was maps being used outside the recommended size as the issue. I am using an official smiteworks conversion of POTA. Why spend the money if the product is inferior?


Best,
Artrem

[Zacchaeus]

None of the maps in PotA come even close to exceeding the recommended size for Unity. As you say this is an old adventure and it was developed for Classic where the limits were actually about half of what they are for Unity.

I'm not seeing any of the issues from your video but since there have been updates since your post whatever the issue was it may well have been fixed.

[Artrem]

Thanks for your reply @Zacchaeus. I have always felt your posts and conversions have been spot on, so I was surprised to see your name on the store page for it. If you did not work on POTA, then you need to talk to Smiteworks because they clearly have you listed as doing the adaptation:

62735




None of the maps in PotA come even close to exceeding the recommended size for Unity. As you say this is an old adventure - which I did not convert btw - and it was developed for Classic where the limits were actually about half of what they are for Unity.

I appreciate you stating with confidence that none of the maps in PotA are not even close to exceeding the recommendations for Unity. I have to take your word for it as I am not unscrupulous and have no way to see inside a passworded zip file that contains the actual image to confirm nor deny that it's the recommended size.

I understand it was made for FGC and released in 2015. However, Dungeon of the Mad Mage was released in 2018 (which I know you did adapt to FG) and it was bad for Unity and you even stated today that you converted it to webp some time ago (also fixed the LOS points which PotA desperately needs as it uses old techniques with tons of points not needed).

62736

Fantasy Grounds Unity wasn't even started as a Kickstarter until 2019 and wasn't officially released until November of 2020.

So, to think that just because it was made prior to Unity, I wouldn't make the assumption that it's optimized for Unity.


I'm not seeing any of the issues from your video but since there have been updates since your post whatever the issue was it may well have been fixed.

In case you didn't see the first video on the first post, here's the context of what it has looked like after every hot fix since 4.6 release (yes, I have updated and tried it out every day since our Wednesday night game):

First Video (issue) https://youtu.be/nDLQDvAXJE0

Second Video (resolved) https://youtu.be/KbH25XOLPtc


So, if the map is not the issue and as @Moon-Wizard posted in this thread last night:

@Sybarite, @Justanevildm,

We just pushed a hot fix release (in the last half hour) that should help with maps that exceed the recommended sizes (>4Kx4K). Please run a new Check for Updates on the Live channel, and let us know if you're still seeing an issue.

Regards,
JPG

This begs the question, what was the issue?

If I have a clean campaign where I have no extensions, loaded my pc's into campaign, open the official modules from FG only, then open the map in question, load the encounter and it does the same thing (frequent freezing as seen in first video) every day for the last three days (multiple hot fixes). He posts this today and now everything is back to the way it was for 4.5 (second video).

What is the issue?

It's not the map size as Moon stated?

Please, help me understand the issue, so when I am making my own modules for my use (I do this very often, my players wanted to play PotA), I don't want to run into issues again.

Or, do we not know what the issue is and are blaming it on the size of the map?

I ask, because blaming the map size seems to be the growing sentiment, as seen with this post last night after the last hot fix was sent out. I would hate to have it come back when we get 4.7 update.

62737

Just trying to understand what happened.

Best,
Artrem

[LordEntrails]

Piecing together comments from John and Carl, there have been several things that have happened with this build and not all of them are resolved yet. This is not an official or probably accurate list, but it should be close.
1) A setting was disabled that converts large images to the maximize size that most GPUs can handle. Something like 16k x 16k pixels. This is the issue with large maps, they were not being reduced in size to what the GPUs could handle and therefore were causing crashes, lockup and inability to open these large images.
2) Memory leaks. It seems like several of these have been detected. John has says that he has found another one in the last 12 hours and is working to resolve it.
3) Misc other issues with the size of selection nodes and pointers and things that seem to indicate significant changes with the graphics engine.
4) A couple other misc things that seem to already be resolved.

[Artrem]

Thank you for the synopsis @LordEntrails. As I said in the beginning I may not be a programmer, but this is a nice synopsis of what is currently ongoing. It helps me tremendously understand where it is and where it is going.

My thoughts below:

I understand that a company must continue to advance and be innovative to stay viable. Smiteworks must do the same. Clearly the drive of this company and program is to make this '2.5D' system work for fantasy grounds. I can only pretend to understand the economics on deciding this is the direction to go vs. improving what personally drove many to fantasy grounds (great automation of systems, virtual environment to meet friends, 2d map improvements [lighting, los, animated maps, tokens], and not being web based platform).

I have been a faithful supporter of this program since before it was purchased by Doug Davison. (I don't post much and try to only post when it's important to me to do so or if I find issues with my games to try to help improve the program). That being said, I do show my support by purchasing many products from store and forge as well as talk up the program to anyone who is interested or talks about a competing program for VTT. I have done so for as long as I've used FG.

I also understand that I am only one opinion of an end user. But, that being said and I hope I am proven wrong, but in the visual aspect of this 2.5D look, is it really wanted by large percentage of your user-base? If WOTC's Project Sigil ever releases (again they've tried many VTT's in the past and failed on each one), if that 'video game' look is what users want, I would expect them to go to that platform as it will be much more refined and likely not return for a 2.5D look. Granted, they may not support other rule-sets, but we all know when it's been posted in the past by Doug, the vast majority of games here play D&D with PF following way behind in percentages.

Unless there is marked improvement, this 2.5D feature will only look as good as the 80's and 90's CRPG games I grew up on; "Descent into the Undermountain" is probably the best example (1998 MS-DOS/Windows from Interplay) that I am envisioning.

62739

Granted it won't be as pixelated, but essentially it is what I imagine it will look like from what I've seen so far. It may or not have animated actions (not even sure if that's planned). Unless there is something I am missing. I love retro, but is it worth making the great things about Fantasy Grounds less important or even not able to use due to the extreme demands onto the program already?

I love this program, I have poured thousands of hours into fantasy grounds, playing, building modules, trying to help troubleshoot things I find, and using multiple rule-sets in the process. I have had amazing adventures and still think it's the best VTT out there. But... if the drive is to only focus on this 2.5D and subsequently degrade the experiences with Fantasy Grounds that I've had for the past 15 years. It makes me wonder if there will come a time I will have to look for something better for my needs. I know someone will say, then go ahead a go. I get it, I'm one end user. But I can't imagine I'm alone in feeling this way.

These thoughts are from someone who really doesn't care about the 2.5D look and I don't believe anyone in my group uses it either (yep tried it a few times, seems like a novelty to me and have returned back to 2D), I really wish Smiteworks was more focused on making what defines this program better (improving rule-set automation, 2D map improvements, etc.). But still focusing on those microtransactions (dice, token packs, maps, etc) that keep the income flowing.

Carl and everyone else working on these visual changes, please do not take this as a knock on your work, it's not. I appreciate all of you doing the work you do. I understand that this is the direction that Smiteworks as decided to go. Its more about the direction of development that I have issue with... is all of this really worth the effort and frustrations when at the end of the day, it will likely be similar to the late nineties CRPG's?

Again from one end user only....
Artrem

[LordEntrails]

Well, here's some other users thoughts on the direction of development. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?83425-Version-4-6-0-its-true-potential
Personally I was never very excited about 3D, but I know a lot of people want/expect/hope for it. But we the recent stuff I'm getting a bit more excited about it. But affordable assets is still a big concern for me.

[Artrem]

Thanks for the link, I did look at it as well as the videos posted within the thread. Again, I'm just one user out of many and this isn't a public company, so just along for the ride. Obviously, I am not excited at all about the 2.5D and never have been. Appreciate you showing the other perspective. I hope it doesn't drive fantasy grounds into the ground.

[Temmpest]

Not a fan of 2.5D either. If you're trying to compete with D&D's new TTRPG, forget it. This 2.5D is just not practical. I watched a video with the new 2.5D assets. Looks cool, but actually playing in that environment is ridiculous. E.g., they showed a small hut with a doorway. Ok, but when you move around it, the doorway always faces you. It's silly.

During our sessions it's cool to view the 2.5D environment, but it's of no use when having to move in it and have actual combat.

I know the developers have poured hundreds (if not thousands) of hours into developing this 2.5D, but I just don't think it will ever be practical for actual gameplay. Just my opinion.

[Sybarite]

@Sybarite, @Justanevildm,

We just pushed a hot fix release (in the last half hour) that should help with maps that exceed the recommended sizes (>4Kx4K). Please run a new Check for Updates on the Live channel, and let us know if you're still seeing an issue.

Regards,
JPG

So far, so good! I was able to interact with maps without any noticeable lag! Thank you!

[Egheal]

Incredible work concerning the freezes. Even with old maps where I always had some stutter/freezes years ago it is now smooth as silk, many thanks for this awesome work!

[LordEntrails]

Looks cool, but actually playing in that environment is ridiculous. E.g., they showed a small hut with a doorway. Ok, but when you move around it, the doorway always faces you. It's silly.
That's already been solved, when placing the asset, the user can control if the asset stays in a fixed orientation or not. See the recent stuff I linked before or Josh's stream from last week if interested.

[Morkrumbo]

I had a similar issue where one of the maps I was using was frozen, in the PotA module. I had one of the Temple maps open when I closed FantasyGrounds, so it automatically opened when I reloaded the module, but it opened up frozen. Couldn't move it, couldn't zoom in, couldn't add tokens, nothing. Closing the map and opening it again made it worse as I couldn't see anything anymore. All of the other Temple maps opened fine and were workable.

What I finally figured out was to close that map and save the module, then restart FantasyGrounds. Then when I open the map, it loaded slowly, but then works just fine. Kind of odd, but hopefully that helps others.

[Moon Wizard]

Just pushed a hot fix update that should help with lag related to lighting. Please run a new Check for Updates, and let us know if you are still having issues.

Regards,
JPG

[Artrem]

Thanks for the update Moon Wizard and the teams continued work on these issues.

We played on the 11/27 and things seemed pretty much back to normal again, had all the extensions (including auras which we've used for ever it seems) running and other than a little intermittent hitching, it played well (lighting was off).

Tonight 12/4, we played with same things established as before and was a rough session with lots of studdering when moving tokens, turned off lighting and a little better but then was rough again. Especially if trying to draw shapes with shape tool (circles, squares, cones).

Now, I understand that extensions are unstable in nature and I appreciate that those will be blamed. But, from my perspective, those extensions worked well in the past (months if not years for some) and now they are unusable. In our gaming session, the Aura extension (again I know this is the issue 'now') enhances our gameplay so much more than what you're all working towards currently. The time saved in having that automated to know exactly who is affected, having effects fire off with that aura coding is what fantasy grounds used to be about - automation -. Taking out the tedious work and letting us enjoy the gameplay and roleplaying.

I've upvoted it on the idea tracker before the new tracker came out and afterwards, but again. Just one user in this sea of people wanting these 2.5D and 3D upgrades, but the frustration with fantasy grounds continues to grow even weeks after change to 4.6

That being said, I appreciate the work going forward, but will disappointed that something (aura extension) that worked so well before and speeds up gameplay so much will have to stopped being used for now.

I look forward to when all these continued issues are resolved.

Artrem

Edit:
It's ironic, after writing this I looked on Forge and the wishlist. It's the #1 subscribed item [5582 subscribers] on forge for 5e (suspect #1 in all rulesets it can be used in) and has most votes (top of list) on wish list and has 489 votes. 3D walls (the focus of the 4.6 update?) only has 310 votes and is 5th on the list.

Again, I know the first item is not taken, but it seems like looking at the forge and the feature list, this is a very well used extension

[LordEntrails]

Some things to consider about what SmiteWorks prioritizes for development...

Things that can and are being done by extensions have limited value to incorporate into core FG (i.e. Auras). This is because they have already been done and their is a community available solution. It also would take money away from community developers (though I doubt many of them would mind). Things, like 3D and refactoring the image processing (which I get a feeling 4.6 was really about), are things that the community can't develop. Only SW can make those types of improvements to the core engine.

Also, we need to realize the Forge and the Feature Request list only get input from a limited set of users, and often doesn't take into consideration the larger market. Not that I'm saying that they shouldn't be important, just that their are more things going on for SW to consider than those two sources.

[Moon Wizard]

Also, we are continuing to look at the lag issues with the Auras extension as an outstanding issue for the v4.6.0 release; so it's not that we're not looking at it. However, we do prioritize core behaviors over extension behaviors when working on fixes and new items.

Regards,
JPG

[Artrem]

Thanks for the update Moon Wizard. I appreciate your comments and I understand that the priority is not if extensions work but fixing the core behaviors. I apologize to you as well in an earlier post of this thread. With Doug being the face of the company, I didn't think to give you credit as a co-owner of Smiteworks.


Maybe this needs to be in a different thread, but I've had discussions in this thread about the topic already:

I guess my point is more to the end user's feeling (my feeling). Fantasy grounds as I've said has been my VTT for over a decade. I have never left it's side. Have I looked at other platforms, sure but just a glance and immediately know that the comfort level and what i am looking for in a VTT fantasy grounds completes. To me it's sort of like my choice in smart phone (iphone vs android). My first brand of a smart phone I purchased and have been with it ever since. This is because am so familiar with it and overall it always works to my needs, I never take a serious look at the other brand. The arguments abound about which is better, I choose to stick with what works for me and probably due to my first choice in smart phones and my comfort with how it works.

My limited understanding of human behavior shows when it comes to products that have similar function but competition in the world, is that once you 'hook' the user, it takes a lot to push them away from that product. So, unless iphone really screws things up and I can't use it like I typically do, I never look at the other product because I am so comfortable with the iphone I deal with a small issues/changes. You could say the same for old school cable companies (streaming services now), internet services, lyft vs uber, etc, etc.

But if my iphone or internet service is not working as it did previously for several weeks, or it just isn't functioning as it did the previous patch. I start to wonder, is this product really worth me putting more of my hard earned money into? I try to continue to have patience with working through the resolution of those issues. However, if for several weeks, it continues to have issues despite multiple attempts to fix it. Well, then I start to look at other options, because just like your time and enjoyment is important, mine as well as my players are equally if not more important as RPG gameplay is for enjoyment not frustration. I get plenty of that during my job.

The sad thing is, is when I or an 'end user' chooses to leave a product (which I understand many have done in the past), the odds of that user returning after several months of using another system (learning the insides and outs of modules, extensions, UI of that new program, and pouring money and more importantly personal time into the product) likely will not return to spend money on dice, maps, tokens, modules on the program they've left.



Again, this is just one individual who uses Fantasy Grounds out of many and there may be many many more users that want the items you have decided for your strategic focus going forward.

However, it was pointed out to me that it appears that this project was in fact a 'pet project' of Doug's as he stated in Fantasy Grounds Friday video back in May of this year. The video is long, but it was very informative to me about the process and some behind the scenes work on the focus on this 'feature' of fantasy grounds.

https://www.youtube.com/live/rraqj8H-6Ts?si=T8neTyhY7NuOwmTx&t=312 (Link to Doug discussing this very fact).

It's great to have these projects to continue to move your company forward, but there is discussion about this 3D look being like the old school wolfenstein appearance and that in Bryce's opinion there is a niche calling for it. If the desire is to pull this niche into fantasy grounds, sure, but what is the market percentage that want that if your idea is to pull more people into fantasy grounds vs the alienation of your current base due to suboptimal performance and gameplay during these 'innovations'? I am sure you have the information on that.

But then Doug discusses the challenges with Fantasy Grounds and what he sees as the future challenges (appreciate his candor on the topic) and then the question arises again as stated above: Is trying to grab more of the market with a niche look that is more and more competitive according to Doug as well as your biggest market share (D&D) is working so hard on it's own VTT (frankly if it work out for them, smiteworks will never compete with from a visual perspective), worth causing issues with what is working and alienating your base users to go to other products?

https://www.youtube.com/live/rraqj8H-6Ts?si=8Szvl94lZYk2ffWo&t=1143 (Link to Doug discussing his thoughts on the State of Fantasy Grounds)

Doug even states in that video, almost 9 months ago, that Auras (the apparent current scapegoat of the debacle of 4.6 patch, yes it's been a debacle) was the number one voted feature in that video. So, clearly you can decide to not focus on that extension, but over the past 9 months, your userbase seem to think it's important enough to put at the top of your only real feedback mechanism (Wish List and forge subscriptions) of what your current users want.

https://www.youtube.com/live/rraqj8H-6Ts?si=FwNFb5ikW_dVauwI&t=1369 (Link to Doug discussion #1 on Wish List)



For those not wanting to read all above:

1) Thank you for your continued hard work on trying to fix what was broken in 4.6 and trying to get the program back to what was functional in 4.5.

2) I understand core mechanics are the key to looking at currently for fixes, not extensions; however at what cost does this pet project (3D) lead to pushing out your base consumers?

3) I ask you don't forget your base users and community developers that have used fantasy grounds for a long time and have used/created the same extensions for a long time which enhances the Fantasy Grounds experience. That uninterrupted experience is what keeps users around, when that gameplay disappears, it makes fantasy grounds less appealing to use (why else would I use an extension if it didn't enhance the current experience).

4) I also have had the faith that your engine and programming will support those community creators and those who have purchased those extensions through these updates. I suspect that if you support it on your website/platform and collect some of the income from those extensions placed on the forge, you do ultimately have some accountability to them being able to be used on your platform. If this isn't the case, then why do I support those community developers if you won't do the same?

5) Most importantly, please don't forget or minimize what has helped this business grow exponentially since your (Doug and John) acquisition of Smiteworks. - Your long time users of the platform. Again, if the platform goes backward in stability or usability and takes weeks or months to fix, then that base (including myself) will take harder looks at alternatives. There are lots of alternatives now that have licensing agreements with those RPG publishers now, and as Doug stated in the video links above, "We have challenges in front of us, the competition is steeper...".


Respectfully,
Artrem

[ddavison]

None of the current issues are related to the new features of 2.5D, expanded dice features, or text on maps. The issues were all caused by refactoring that was meant to improve performance, provide multi threading support, and other core system enhancements.

The new features got linked with those changes because our system doesn’t make it easy to unwind those features to push them independently of each other. We even have this with something as simple as a new dice pack. The dice pack get linked with whatever other development is occurring because it
is a client update.

[Artrem]

Thanks for the update and further explanation. As time goes on and each week the gaming experience hasn't returned to what we had prior to the 4.6 release, the frustration continues to build not only with myself but the players that I play with weekly.

If I could go back in time, I would have never accepted 4.6 update (never felt that way before with FGU) and followed LordEntrails model of staying in 4.5.10. Sure, I could play in Prev now but never gone from live, to prev, then back to live. Maybe I shouldn't be shy about it as have used TEST when Trenloe was working on PF2 R19, but there's enough issues now already. I don't need anymore. I will try to keep the faith that it'll be better next week (been saying that every week so far).

If I didn't love using Fantasy Grounds so much, I would just move on and not voice my concerns or worries. Thanks for the additional information.

Respectfully,
Artrem

[ddavison]

We appreciate you sharing your thoughts and frustrations. We are working diligently to get back into a nice stable and performant environment. We will keep working on it until we reach that point.