Temple of elemental evil with D&D 2e rule set

[hammer58]

Ok guys, I want to use fantasy ground for its LOS ability and map positioning of the party.
We will do the rest of the game pen and paper.
Just want to use the mapping utility for game play support.
Can I do that with fantasy grounds?
I will be using D&D 2e rules and the TOEE module.
Does fantasy grounds enable me to do this?
It seems to me that none of the maps in TOEE have LOS ability.

On the surface Fantasy Grounds says play more do less work.
Maybe this only applies to 5e games.

[Zacchaeus]

TOEE is an older module which was developed before Unity and so doesn't, as you say, have line of sight (since that didn't exist prior to Unity).

And yes, you can use FG in your face to face games to handle the map - lots of people use it in this way. (You can also use it to track combats and pretty much anything else that you want it to in a face to face game).

[hammer58]

TOEE is an older module which was developed before Unity and so doesn't, as you say, have line of sight (since that didn't exist prior to Unity).

And yes, you can use FG in your face to face games to handle the map - lots of people use it in this way. (You can also use it to track combats and pretty much anything else that you want it to in a face to face game).

Not really. The square size is all wrong in relation to the icons. A character icon takes up an entire 10 foot square. The game engine is all messed up on size relationships. The module is IMHO not functional inside FG unity as it is sold. Very unfinished and should come with a warning label stating as much. Secret doors not very secret when they all show up on the player map. I can go on and on.
This module needs a ton of rework to work with FG unity. Needs LOS added as well.

IMHO I would be better off using roll 20 for this purpose. None of the advanced features of FG are functional with the TOEE module as sold within FG.

The main reason I am saying all of this is because the selling point of FG is play more work less. And that is only true with new 5e stuff. And there is no warning labels on anything sold within FG saying anything different from that selling point.

[Zacchaeus]

Hmm, looks like the developer didn't add the grid correctly (looks like they assumed that each square was 5ft instead of 10). If you want a 5ft square grid then unlock the map; go to the grid at the top right and change the 50 to 25. (I'm out of touch with 2e so I don't know if the scale was 5ft or 10ft normally).

[Trenloe]

I'd recommend if you have specific issues with a product that you raise them in the forums - with details of the specific issue/s so that the devs can review and update as needed.

To address some of your comments:


The square size is all wrong in relation to the icons. A character icon takes up an entire 10 foot square.
This is how the original map was created - 10 foot squares, so this has been recreated this way in FG. If you want to change that it takes 5 seconds to do it - see the screenshot below.


Secret doors not very secret when they all show up on the player map.
I've had a look at a few maps and the "S" for secret door is visible on the DM map, but not on the player map. Can you give examples of where secret doors are visible on the player map please?


Needs LOS added as well.
To be fair, the product in the store isn't advertised as having LoS. I agree LoS would be great. The maps can be used with the mask/unmask feature, which is the way maps were revealed when this product was released and this works great for using maps in face-to-face gameplay, I use mask/unmask all the time with a large TV in the middle of the table and physical minis on the TV screen. This extension can help get the image to the size of your minis: https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/7/view

Here's an example of changing the FG grid squares from 10 feet to 5 feet - very quick and easy to do if this is what you want in your game.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=62437

[hammer58]

It is not that simple. Door sizes are also wrong. Line of sight thru a door way for the game engine wrong. The map needs a rework. The function of demi humans visibility not working as LOS does not function. But beyond that the game engine function is off because of map size issues. It needs 3.3 feet per character icon which does not divide into 10 foot squares. So a map overlay does not work as their is drift of .1 foot every 10 feet. When you get across the map the drift causes more issues.

Is there a way to define the size of the square on the original toee map to 9.9 feet? Then I can use an over lay of 3.3 feet.

[LordEntrails]

The doors are the size they were originally drawn as. Yes that means that they are about 8 feet wide. You can either except that, or when you draw your LOS you can make them whatever size you want them, regardless of how they are drawn on the map.

Look, FG can not legally change the maps provided by the IP holder (WotC). They must convert and present the module as it was published. You can easily adjust the square size so that the functional grid (the FG one, not the image one) is 5ft squares. You can chose to show the FG grid or not.

Yes you can make a grid be 9.9 feet to correct for drift, just adjust the numbers in Trenloe's images until you eliminate drift. I know you can do at least 1 decimal place, and maybe 2. You can also adjust the default size of tokens in the campaign options. By default they are 80% of a grid size, so normally 4ft (on a 5ft grid) but you can make them smaller if you want. (I have no idea where 3.3ft comes from).

edit: note if you change the grid sizing or token scaling option on a map/image, tokens already on the map will NOT resize. You will have to delete them from the map and re-add them to get them to scale according to the new grid size or default (80%) scale option.

[claedawg]

Pretty much any map from before 3E uses 10' squares and were not really made with using as a tabletop device for the players to see. They were used as DM only reference and it was up to the players to map out the dungeon as the DM described it to them (usually on graph paper). So it will not translate well into VTTs or modern games.

On that note, it would be a nice feature for Players to be able to create images the way DMs do to recreate the fun of making a map (usually incorrectly) from the DM's verbal description, ;).

[Trenloe]

As mentioned, there isn't any LoS on these maps. So I'm not sure how "Line of sight thru a door way for the game engine wrong" when there isn't any LoS for this product. Plus, "Door sizes are wrong" - these maps are the original maps from the original product. These are as the author intended and how old-school maps were created when this product was published. I wouldn't expect any FG converter to go through and check all maps and change the sizes of doors based off their opinion on exactly what size a door should be. And I don't think old school mapping was particularly concerned with details down to the level of 3.3 feet per character icon that you mention. But, you run your game as you want to run it, just please consider how these maps were created and what they were designed for in the original product and therefore within the FG conversion of that product - so what you want to do may not be 100% possible within FG because the base maps and the FG system may not be designed that way.


Is there a way to define the size of the square on the original toee map to 9.9 feet? Then I can use an over lay of 3.3 feet.
What you can change is shown in my screenshot above - you can change the pixels of the grid square - which is used to match a FG grid to the grid in the FG image. If you want one square to be 9.9 feet then you can set the pixels to match the square and set the distance multiplier to be 9.9 feet. However, I'm not sure what this will actually accomplish for you - other than giving a 1% more accurate distance measurement over a large distance; as each grid square would be 9.9 feet in FG adding PCs/NPCs to the map would size to the whole grid square and you'd need to manually reduce the size of the tokens and not use snap to grid to get 3x3 creatures in a 9.9 foot grid square. Play with the two settings I mention to see what you can do - maybe look to setup grid squares that are 3.3 feet in size - although you may struggle to get the image pixels to line up to this.

[Zacchaeus]

The maps are as supplied by Wizards of the Coast so they can't be altered. They are also pretty old and of course weren't drawn for VTTs since they didn't exist in 1987. The grid squares are baked into the map so they can't be changed. You could use a distance multiplier of 6ft instead of 5 which would mean demi humans get to move one square and humans get to move 2 squares for each movement segment. I'm not familiar enough with 2e really but I'd just use a movement speed of 5 for demi humans and 10 for everything else. You can make the doors as wide or as narrow as you want with line of sight occluders. You can use darkvision to represent infravision. Low light vision isn't implemented however.

I agree that the maps aren't wonderful compared to what we see in the most recent products (from any publisher); they are still functional enough to run the adventure.

[Laerun]

It is not that simple. Door sizes are also wrong. Line of sight thru a door way for the game engine wrong. The map needs a rework. The function of demi humans visibility not working as LOS does not function. But beyond that the game engine function is off because of map size issues. It needs 3.3 feet per character icon which does not divide into 10 foot squares. So a map overlay does not work as their is drift of .1 foot every 10 feet. When you get across the map the drift causes more issues.

Is there a way to define the size of the square on the original toee map to 9.9 feet? Then I can use an over lay of 3.3 feet.

Many of the 2e content or older TTRPG content where not made or designed with VTT or line of sight in mind, so scaling, and more exact digital representation would require new maps and assets to be made for half of the sold products.
The interpretation of how the LoS should be applied was in the hands of the developer prior to the newer features, and the provided assets on hand. In many cases, some of this will fall upon the GMs to adapt. The suggestions below are fair and reasonable. It's not realistic or even practical to add unlicensed content or changes to an official product, and there is no good way or cost effective method to retroactively go back through older content to address these types of preferential expectations. The product doesn't advertise LoS officially. An oversight by the individual in the map scale interpretation had occured, and using older black and white or non optimized VTT maps would be time consuming and almost pointless for anyone to address. The masking method fits the style of game play well, and if we need that extra immersive Line of Sight, it will fall upon us to manage it.

We should not have to do anything if we paid for it? There is no good way to guess how individuals or end users are going to use the content to start with, and not having exactness is likely not game breaking in this case. I don't think any wrong doing was intentional, and this seems more like an editions war topic more than a request for clarity or help in this case. It's not worth the hassle. Play more, prep less does not mean no work at all. I have put in effort to source or make maps for content that I don't like and I don't put that on anyone but myself. Most VTTs will require the same if not more effort to adapt the content to your liking.

[hammer58]

3 characters can fit in a 10 foot wide passage. side by side. So a proper grid would be 3 and 1/3rd foot per icon for a 10 foot wide hall way. Since FG is all decimal it becomes 3.3333333 repeating and never divides into 10. So I have to change the grid to 9.9 feet per square to accommodate FG. The issue here is scaling with a game engine. The original module was not made to scale with a game engine.
This is not the fault of the module as made by Wotc. The fault is in the implementation of the module within the game engine of FG.

I am saying it is not user friendly with the game engine as it is sold to me without me changing the game engine to work with the module you sold to me.
Again I reference play more work less selling point of FG!

[Zacchaeus]

To fit three characters side by side into a 10ft corridor you are going to have to set the grid size to 16.6 (1/3rd of 50px). Each character occupies one grid square. You'll then need to work out what the distance multiplier will need to be to satisfy your need to have movement calculated to a decimal point.

The play more prep less doesn't just refer to a pretty minor aspect of the mapping but to the whole range of things which are included in the module, such as premade encounters, monsters, treasures, the whole text of the book, the speech bubbles, the images, the treasure parcels, and the many other aspects of the module which you aren't apparently interested in.

[LordEntrails]

Since you can place tokens with 9 places inside an FG grid, you can just place three tokens across (two in grid centers and one on a grid mid-point) if you don't want to worry about drift. Just reduce the size of the tokens to whatever size you want so they do not overlap.

Many of us easily make this work for our needs. But, if you are unhappy with your purchase, you can return if for a full refund within 30 days if bought from the FG Store. Steam has it's own policy.

[bayne7400]

You guys have pretty much covered everything but I'll add TOEE is a 1e module ran on the 2e ruleset. So it is configured for 2e ADD. Also many adventures come with both original map and reimagined maps. There are TOEE maps on the internet you can use and add your own LOS.

To get your tokens sized right you need to do like they suggested and run 5 foot squares on the original maps.

For using FG in in person games I recommend using the mask tool and a single party token. When a combat encounters occurs grab the [party from the party sheet and drag it to the map.
1. This lets them setup their positioning ahead of time.
2. Keeps you from dragging more than one token around the map.
3. if you are using one machine just make sure player vision preview is turned on. Personally I run a client machine and put it on my 55" TV and run the GM version on my laptop.

The biggest Advantage of using FG for in person gaming is not the mapping IMO but the Combat Tracker. I have players maintain their own character sheets and control all NPCs on the CT. Players never see the CT.

[celestian]

I've been buried under a conversion project but caught wind of discussion here so figured I'd drop in and comment.

As mentioned, ToEE was the 2nd conversion I think I did for FG and at the time there wasn't any LOS in FG. Also, as mentioned, the maps are the original map images. and I did my best to clean them up and align them so they would work in a VTT. Since they are pre-internet/vtt days sometimes its not perfect (I think I might even have mentioned that in the FG conversion section).

One thing I did do is provide links to my personal ToEE maps here a few times (and you can find them from my signature here) and use those instead. They will work in a VTT environment.

I've spoke to the Smiteworks folks and said I'll try and revisit the ToEE LOS on the maps once I finish my current conversion projects but it will not be in the near term just so you know.