Breaking Extensions so much

[FedeBerserk]

I have been missing 2 months of gametime because you KEEP breaking extensions with your shitty updates. Why the hell do you install a system of PAID EXTENSIONS if you are not going to communicate with their Developers in order to try to make things smooth each update instead of ****ing up everything for everyone because you wanted to delete a single line of Code.

[Moon Wizard]

We provide notifications in all our official channels for developers to provide lead time to adjust to upcoming changes. Because all extensions/mods are made by people not associated with SmiteWorks, we have no control whether they look at the updates we provide nor whether they provide updates. We always recommend not using extensions if you are concerned about errors occurring on updates, as well as recommend not updating immediately before a game or if you are concerned about the extensions/mods you use.

Regards,
JPG

[jharp]

Moon,

Any chance we could get a system in place for extensions that includes an entry in the .xml that indicates the max version of the FG client the extension supports?
Then, in the client, check all extensions before updating to give the user some understanding about what they are about to do. IE show a list of the extensions that would be outside of supported version.
If it didn't have the entry in the .xml it just says unknown.

The system would not prevent update but certainly could help with debugging extensions. I'm sure it is only a story point or two.... :)
Jason

[Morenu]

I have been missing 2 months of gametime because you KEEP breaking extensions with your shitty updates. Why the hell do you install a system of PAID EXTENSIONS if you are not going to communicate with their Developers in order to try to make things smooth each update instead of ****ing up everything for everyone because you wanted to delete a single line of Code.

Stop updating right away If using extensions. That is the answer. Once you have a stable game with the extensions you want, DO NOT UPDATE. If there is no reason to update, Don't. as I believe Silentruin says, "Extensions = Risk". I use 30 - 50 extensions and have for years. I have only had 1 play session interrupted due to updates, and that was due to a player updating after being reminded EVERY session, not to.

I also agree that IMO FGU without extensions is only about half as good (Sry SW). so I get it. Update = BAD until it is needed.

[Jiminimonka]

Moon,

Any chance we could get a system in place for extensions that includes an entry in the .xml that indicates the max version of the FG client the extension supports?
Then, in the client, check all extensions before updating to give the user some understanding about what they are about to do. IE show a list of the extensions that would be outside of supported version.
If it didn't have the entry in the .xml it just says unknown.

The system would not prevent update but certainly could help with debugging extensions. I'm sure it is only a story point or two.... :)
Jason

World of Warcraft had (probably still has, not played in years) something like this - extensions had a version number, if that didn't match the current version of WOW, it would not load unless the player forced it (and then had issues with it not working but they got a warning sign before hand).

[gajet480]

Perhaps Smiteworks could update the game to include the features that the most used and helpful mods/extensions. If they are a part of the game it will eliminate most of the needs for outside mods/extensions.

[MartianXi]

There are a lot of basic functionality extensions that I would think could be rolled into the base game but of course that's maybe a big ask. The check for updates button could maybe have a secondary dialog window with a warning that updates may cause issues with extensions or something like that.

My group discussed not updating the game but all it takes is one senior moment from a player to forget not to click it.

Is there a way to rollback to a previous version? It sounds like the creator of one of the extensions I really like (CoreRPG Extraplaner Containers) is stepping back from updating and FGU and there won't be anymore updates unless he can find someone else to take over.

[Moon Wizard]

For the most part, the ruleset updates are purely driven by the GM; so the most important one not to update is the GM if you want to hold off.

If the application itself is updated, then the new ruleset code may depend on the updated client APIs/behaviors for new features; but those are less often.

Regards,
JPG

[eporrini]

It's an absolute cop out to say "don't update" the game basically ever. The author of this post is 100% correct. This game has been buggy and bordering on unplayable for months. The saddest part is, the features being added are the novelty ones (isometric view anyone?). I have a significant investment in FGU and content. As a customer, the dev team shows ZERO remorse for these crazy issues. Yes, core extensions should be a priority to incorporate, especially when the developers abandon their extensions (no blame there, they are not paid) and leave the game poorer for it. I am extremely frustrated. Stop making excuses. This WILL NOT be a platform supported (as it is now) for long if this continues.

[Morenu]

1) Does the game work the way it was intended with no extensions loaded? Yes, with extremely few exceptions.
2) Are extensions play at your own risk? Yes. With zero exceptions.
3) Does smite works Give some sort of aid to developers prior to releasing updates? Yes, but from what I hear there could be better ways or more helpful ways they could implement this.
4) Should smite works implement highly used extensions After talking to their developer? This gets a bit more hairy and has been answered in other posts. They have done it, I believe they are doing it currently with Auras. My personal belief is that any reasonably simple quality of life items that have high use should definitely be implemented.
5) Is it a cop out to say don’t update for at least one week if you use extensions and then do your research? No. You are using essentially beta level add-ons from an outside contractor and Expecting everything to work. Would it be nice? Yes. But the honest question is why are you updating? Was something broken that needed fixed? 95% of the time no.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I understand sometimes it’s unavoidable, but again I have played with 30 to 50 active extensions over the last four years in 3 rulesets. I have had an update stop us from gaming one or two times. And one of those times was player error because they updated without DM permission.

I literally have multiple thousands of dollars invested in fantasy grounds and have very few complaints when judging the size of the company and minimum cost required to play. If you’re playing with extensions, stop updating Willy Nilly, Or at Least stop complaining about it. You’re upset because you don’t like the instructions in the manual, which is basically don’t update before session and especially don’t update if you’ve got extensions and don’t need to.

[MartianXi]

Updates shouldn't need to be treated as you suggest... if it ain't broke don't fix it.... there wouldn't be an update if there wasn't some reason to do so. There's an update every week and after many years of cell phone use it becomes second nature to stay updated.

I tend to update because there are often bug fixes involved and maybe it is just a force of habit, but not updating runs the risk of getting so outdated that a single update changes everything so drastically that I have to re-learn an entire program.

I'm not a programmer by any means and have only a basic idea of what's happening behind the scenes but if the updates were setup in different packages with separate bug fix patches and UI/feature updates as optional I think it would make a big difference to the user experience.

This was an expensive program with the original ultimate license pricing and as much as I appreciate it's continued growth I just want a stable platform to work with that doesn't require a bunch of troubleshooting every weekend.

[Trenloe]

...I just want a stable platform to work with that doesn't require a bunch of troubleshooting every weekend.
I'm sorry to labor the point already stated, but the majority (not all, but a large majority) of issues are caused by extensions. You'll need to make a judgement call on how many extensions you feel you *have* to run vs the more you run the more likely you're going to have issues.

[MartianXi]

I'm sorry to labor the point already stated, but the majority (not all, but a large majority) of issues are caused by extensions. You'll need to make a judgement call on how many extensions you feel you *have* to run vs the more you run the more likely you're going to have issues.

True they are caused by extensions, of which I only use three but those three are fairly fundamental in our game.

[Morenu]

Updates shouldn't need to be treated as you suggest... if it ain't broke don't fix it.... there wouldn't be an update if there wasn't some reason to do so. There's an update every week and after many years of cell phone use it becomes second nature to stay updated.

Resist the shiny red box. I always Read the update. We currently play PFrpg, so if there is nothing for PF or CoreRPG that we need, I do not update. I prefer our working extensions. To me as a long time computer user, Other than MAYBE security updates, Don't do OS or Software updates when they first come out. let some other person find the errors. You mentioned Phones... you seriously update immediately when they release a major update? no thanks, I like making and receiving calls.

I tend to update because there are often bug fixes involved and maybe it is just a force of habit, but not updating runs the risk of getting so outdated that a single update changes everything so drastically that I have to re-learn an entire program.

I am not saying DON'T update ever (although that is an option I suppose if everything is 100% working), I am saying to let others find the glaring issues if this type of thing is going to upset you. We KNOW that major FGU changes almost always makes a few of the 30+ extensions we use break. You have an answer, you just do not like the answer.

I'm not a programmer by any means and have only a basic idea of what's happening behind the scenes but if the updates were setup in different packages with separate bug fix patches and UI/feature updates as optional I think it would make a big difference to the user experience.

Now this Idea I like. Hot fixes, spelling mistakes, broken links... anything that has almost no chance of breaking things should be 1 type of update (maybe anything that is not a ruleset?). Then have a Forge only update and then have a ruleset update with a warning "this could break extensions". This would go a LONG way towards helping the issue.

This was an expensive program with the original ultimate license pricing and as much as I appreciate it's continued growth I just want a stable platform to work with that doesn't require a bunch of troubleshooting every weekend.

I paid $100 and have gotten SO MUCH more for my money. No Monthly fee. No yearly upgrade cost... Players can play for free, so $100 allows say 4 people to enjoy playing for as long as SW is around. I absolutely disagree with the expensive program statement. ALSO if you are a 5E player, this is more WotC's problem then it is SW

Obviously we all have our own opinions and experiences. I prefer constructive communication of issues and asking about possible solutions and tend to see a better response from that technique.

I am taking that update suggestion to the Voting for improvement page

[Tooting Dog]

And if SW didn't allow third parties to create extensions, there would be a lot of whining going on, too. They cannot win on this one. Be happy that extensions are allowed and be sure to heed the disclaimer on many extensions that they may conflict, or break, etc. Tabletop play does not use extensions, and you do not need them in this VTT; though I feel they certainly increase enjoyment.

[houseofdexter]

5) Is it a cop out to say don’t update for at least one week if you use extensions and then do your research? No. You are using essentially beta level add-ons from an outside contractor and Expecting everything to work. Would it be nice? Yes. But the honest question is why are you updating? Was something broken that needed fixed? 95% of the time no.


Part of the problem now is that you can't get updates to extensions that are part of Forge without also getting updates to FGU...and don't get me started on being able to tell what extension you are even adding...The Loader needs lots of work...it gives you next to NO INFORMATION about the extension that you loading.

[MartianXi]

And if SW didn't allow third parties to create extensions, there would be a lot of whining going on, too. They cannot win on this one. Be happy that extensions are allowed and be sure to heed the disclaimer on many extensions that they may conflict, or break, etc. Tabletop play does not use extensions, and you do not need them in this VTT; though I feel they certainly increase enjoyment.

The fact that SW has the Forge and that it is included in updates makes it part of the software. I could understand if I was getting third party stuff off a random site but this stuff is sanctioned by SW and is automated within their update loader.

It seems like many extension creators are getting burnt out with always having to "fix" their work and lots of good extensions aren't getting updated anymore.

[Laerun]

The push back I received from my players about not updating is that at least one was also a GM, and the players purchased the new dice packs. No updates=less sales or purchases, so it's a tough sell.

[houseofdexter]

The fact that SW has the Forge and that it is included in updates makes it part of the software. I could understand if I was getting third party stuff off a random site but this stuff is sanctioned by SW and is automated within their update loader.

It seems like many extension creators are getting burnt out with always having to "fix" their work and lots of good extensions aren't getting updated anymore.

It does seem like they are breaking extensions way more than they use to do...

[Jiminimonka]

1) Does the game work the way it was intended with no extensions loaded? Yes, with extremely few exceptions.
2) Are extensions play at your own risk? Yes. With zero exceptions.
3) Does smite works Give some sort of aid to developers prior to releasing updates? Yes, but from what I hear there could be better ways or more helpful ways they could implement this.
4) Should smite works implement highly used extensions After talking to their developer? This gets a bit more hairy and has been answered in other posts. They have done it, I believe they are doing it currently with Auras. My personal belief is that any reasonably simple quality of life items that have high use should definitely be implemented.
5) Is it a cop out to say don’t update for at least one week if you use extensions and then do your research? No. You are using essentially beta level add-ons from an outside contractor and Expecting everything to work. Would it be nice? Yes. But the honest question is why are you updating? Was something broken that needed fixed? 95% of the time no.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I understand sometimes it’s unavoidable, but again I have played with 30 to 50 active extensions over the last four years in 3 rulesets. I have had an update stop us from gaming one or two times. And one of those times was player error because they updated without DM permission.

I literally have multiple thousands of dollars invested in fantasy grounds and have very few complaints when judging the size of the company and minimum cost required to play. If you’re playing with extensions, stop updating Willy Nilly, Or at Least stop complaining about it. You’re upset because you don’t like the instructions in the manual, which is basically don’t update before session and especially don’t update if you’ve got extensions and don’t need to.

Well said.

[jackal713]

... But the honest question is why are you updating? ...

Because the Update button flashes. I haven't used FGU for very long so maybe I just don't get it, but if I'm not supposed to update, then why does the button flash?

[Zacchaeus]

It does seem like they are breaking extensions way more than they use to do...

This is probably because in the past extensions were small things that did one thing (like implement Halfling's Luck, or other similar things). Extensions now tend to be beasts and do many things like rewrite character sheets and do things with the combat tracker and other essential features. The other thing which is impacting the situation is that over the past 18-24 months a lot of the underlying code has been re-written to allow more future proofing and also to allow more features to be added. The previous code was becoming too restrictive and needed to change to be more resilient to changes. Since many extensions interfere with this low level code and since many are bigger and touch way more areas of the code extensions break more easily and more frequently.

[SilentRuin]

There are two main issues going on here.

Extension/Ruleset Developers:


SW has few resources and has chosen, yes chosen, to not provide detailed documents on things that have changed causing huge amounts of time being consumed making simple fixes because they have to be traced from the error - the reason it was changed - to what can be done to get stuff back to working. This is a huge unnecessarily imposed time synch imposed on devs by SW. I've suggested making them do what we have to do - expand out all source we touch - and do searches when we change things to judge the impact and what will need to be changed by those impacted. I've been told they have no intention of doing this as its to difficult. Telling me dumping a few GB of expanded source ( i exaggerate hugely ) into a directory and running a search with modern computers with modern storage devices using something simple like notepad++ is not hard. In fact, with scripting - its pretty damn simple. Short of doing this - a minimum I'd ask is that any changes make some attempt to preserve naming or legacy calls or at the very least document what changes were made and why they were made so we can cut down on our time guessing at all that. As shown in the following thread - I actually documented every time consuming issue I encountered and what the change was and what I had to do to replace it. Simple stuff - that impacted multiple extensions (even now still) - that took tons of time I did not want to spend getting my stuff back to working as it was before LIVE dropped.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?82607-Feedback-Thread-D-amp-D-5E-(2024)-Ruleset-Updates


Users of Extensions/Rulesets:


Users appear to be largely completely clueless to the RISK of using EXTENSIONS. As I say in every one of my forum threads for my extensions - EXTENSIONS = RISK - with a paragraph at the end of page 1 stating why. They somehow think the tiny dev team of SW has time to suck in extension code and incorporate it into their code base incurring all the RISKS and DANGERS that implies. Newsflash - 3rd party devs can be completely clueless on how to write safe code or clearly documented code with easily understood logic (just look at my stuff). So even if we would love to dump the responsibility of maintaining these extensions onto SW - the words "fat chance" apply to all but the most simple extensions. In fact, I have great fears that some extensions (looking at you AURA) that are heavily used and are in the works to probably have something similar done in SW will completely bust all the dependencies on them simply because SW does not have the time to actually grok what is being done and why - and simply go off on their own implementation losing functionality and dependencies that use the current functionality. Is this SW fault? No. Its a twisted mess to maintain your own code base with small number of devs already. The fact they allow 3rd parties to hook into their code and provided FORGE after some of us were booted out of DMsG (yes a whole other story most users are clueless about - why FORGE was created which is not the reason some posts state above) is a great service to 3rd party devs.


Conclusion:

Its a twisted messy issue that has no easily solved solution. I've both lambasted and defended SW from two different perspectives and if you don't grok that - too bad. It is what it is. Can things be done to reduce breakage of extensions? Absolutely. Can the RISK of extensions be removed?

Hell no. Not a chance. You use them - you accept the RISK - or you stay far far away from them.

IMHO

[Morenu]

The fact that SW has the Forge and that it is included in updates makes it part of the software. I could understand if I was getting third party stuff off a random site but this stuff is sanctioned by SW and is automated within their update loader.

It seems like many extension creators are getting burnt out with always having to "fix" their work and lots of good extensions aren't getting updated anymore.

Tell that to Steam Workshop LOL... Does anyone here complain to Steam or the game publisher if their Game mod is broken? Thats what we would call Pissin into the wind.

I don't get it, I play with Mods in games all the time, especially if I have played through it once. EVERY Time the main game updates, something breaks in my mods, and Hell then I can't play at all unless I start new with only the working mods (Shutting off broken extensions MIGHT let you play in FGU). and Sometimes the updates of the Game or Mod breaks your save and you have to start over. I have no Fin clue Why people see Fantasy Grounds differently. And it is SO much easier NOT to update FGU then it is on steam.

[LordEntrails]

I'm not a programmer by any means and have only a basic idea of what's happening behind the scenes but if the updates were setup in different packages with separate bug fix patches and UI/feature updates as optional I think it would make a big difference to the user experience.

This was an expensive program with the original ultimate license pricing and as much as I appreciate it's continued growth I just want a stable platform to work with that doesn't require a bunch of troubleshooting every weekend.
The idea of having separate update channels (or pipelines) is a great idea. And expensive is relative.

I've worked with one software company (as a user, client administrator, consultant, etc) that has a value of over $20 billion USD for decades. My current employer pays this company about $1mil USD per year for user licenses and support. This software company does not have multiple update channels and they have explored the idea more than once. It is simply too expensive and induces too much risk. Multiple release/update channels is a rarity in the software industry for a reason. SmiteWorks and FG are not going to be able to ignore those reasons just because it would be good for some of us.

Allowing third parties to deploy extension or integrated packages is not easy and even the companies with huge investments in their pipelines and quality control etc don't get it right every time. Remember CrowdStrike?

Can SmiteWorks do better? Yes. Informed and considered feedback from the community will help them do so.
Will extensions ever be without substantial risk? No, not unless one of you wants to give SW a few million dollars that would never be recouped.

Educate yourself. Make your own decisions and take responsibility for your decisions.

[Morenu]

Because the Update button flashes. I haven't used FGU for very long so maybe I just don't get it, but if I'm not supposed to update, then why does the button flash?

I hope you don't play your PCs with that same mindset.. "Ooohh.. SHINEY!" you'll be updating your character sheet from scratch. LOL

[HywelPhillips]

I would point to the other major VTT which allows custom extensions - Foundry. Foundry has gone the multiple-channels route and it is ALSO a nightmare.

With FGU you click the update button, it downloads and unpacks everything, all from one place. You never gets a "file not found" error. You never have to start chasing down dependencies. You never have to be your own SysAdmin for all these packages. Conversely, if the core updates contain breaking code, which over the last year or so quite a lot of them have, it may break extensions.

If you are running a handful of extensions, as I am, this is a minor issue. The most I've had to do is to turn one or two off for a couple of weeks, or perhaps stop using them in a worst-case scenario.

If you are running 30-50 extensions, this is a major issue as the likelihood of at least one extension breaking approaches 100%, and debugging which one(s) to turn off is far from trivial.


The Foundry approach is that which I more commonly saw in Particle Physics code deployment - lots of people maintaining lots of code in lots of places, which theoretically gets pulled in when you request an update. You CAN request an update everything, but you don't have to - if you are working on your own extension, you can rebuild just that.

The downside is that in my experience even professional purchased products can go missing - the URL for where to find the package is no longer valid, and you're on your own trying to figure out where to go from there.

Foundry's model relies on more functionality being provided by modules, and they absolutely introduce breaking changes with every release. So they've had to go down the route of marking which version of the core software each add on module works with. The net result is that if you switch to the latest version, you will very likely find that even the core ruleset of purchased products hasn't caught up yet and you may be running at risk. You end up with a patchwork of modules and it's very rare to get everything all updated to the
latest core release before the next core release happens.

In my experience this is a hundred times worse in terms of GM and player experience than the "one button update" solution provided by FGU. Not least because the FGU core functionality of everything purchased in the store (rather than the forge) is guaranteed by SmiteWorks and they do - frankly - an astounding job of making sure that this does not break.

With Foundry, I was forced to lock the version when I got everything working for a campaign. I could absolutely guarantee and afternoon's SysAdmin work for myself if I ever wanted to update.

With FGU, I update weekly and if anything breaks, it'll be one of the small number of extensions which I just turn off for the week. And I rarely need to do that.



So for my use case at least, the way FGU does it now is far superior to the proposed approaches, which start going down the "separate update streams for different modules" route. IMO that would be a BIG mistake to make.

The only exception I might make that might be fair is to introduce a "download new purchases" button as an alternative to "Update everything". But honestly I'm not sure it's worth the candle, you'd get people with two year old code wondering why the latest stuff doesn't work with a download new purchases and the overall load on the team for debugging would increase.


My observation (and it may be biassed and wrong) is that the people who have the most complaints tend to be running Pathfinder; maybe 5E. I think it is the most mechanically complex system FGU support, and probably genuinely does benefit from all those extensions. I found a few 5E ones to be invaluable (SOMETHING to handle druid wildshape and polymorph is a clear standout for what is core PHB functionality) and a wide range of smaller ones that were useful. Thankfully for most of the other games I favour (SWADE, Vaesen, Alien, DCC etc.) they do not need more than the occasional helper extension.

So I can see the Foundry approach might be more useful for these patchwork systems relying on lots of extensions? TBH though given how hard it proved to get stable builds of Forbidden Lands and 5E to support few-month mini-campaigns on Foundry I suspect it would actually make matters worse for end users, if possibly easier for extension devs.

Cheers, Hywel

[jackal713]

"Ooohh.. SHINEY!"

Yeah I must be missing something, because I thought that was the point... LoL

Signed
Trap Tripper the 3rd

[Vass_Dts]

As an owner of both Foundry and FG (though I almost exclusively use FG), I second what @HywelPhillips said. Updating Foundry is a pain in the ***. I would also like to point out that in order for Foundry to reach the functionality of vanilla FG, you need about 40 extensions at last count. Also, the fact that both functionality-altering plug-ins (what we call extensions in FG-land) and content material (what we call modules), are ALL called modules in Foundry and are all loaded from the same menu, which is also an annoying mess. Quite frankly, I have no idea why people say that Foundry is more intuitive. [My theory is that both FG and Foundry get a portion of new users that have left Roll20, so when they compare the two, they feel Foundry is more intuitive because foundry's interface is an iteration of R20's interface--thus reaching a false conclusion]

But, to be fair, when it comes to maps, Foundry completely blows FG out of the water. I cannot believe that it's been what? Four-ish years of FGU, and we still don't have directional lights for instance. But that's discussion for another topic.

On our topic, I'm a heavy extensions user. I run home-brew adventures on a home-brew setting. Many of my extensions are QoL improvements for my players. Some are QoL for me. Some help implement a couple of house-rules I use for my setting. Stuff BCEG because it allows me to do more automation and can thus do more elaborate cool stuff that I wouldn't to do at a table because they would require tedious book-keeping. MOST of the stuff I use are things useful to me, but not necessarily stuff FG needs. But on the other hand, some are stuff that since the days of FGC I could not understand why FG has not implemented them since day 0.

And I have not updated my LIVE channel.

Could SW handle updates in a way that helps devs more with breakages? Yeah. Many, many conversations have been made on the matter--particularly the last few months--and I know that SW is looking into it.

For users, the easiest, minimum effort stuff SW could do, is add an extra dialogue box before important ruleset of software update saying something like: "This is a major update affecting the functionality of the FG software (or the functionality of X Ruleset if it's a big ruleset update like we got with 5e). If you use extensions, they may stop working properly. Are you sure you want to continue?"

I believe that message would go a long way in reducing user outrage. Not eliminate, but at least reduce.

[LordEntrails]

For users, the easiest, minimum effort stuff SW could do, is add an extra dialogue box before important ruleset of software update saying something like: "This is a major update affecting the functionality of the FG software (or the functionality of X Ruleset if it's a big ruleset update like we got with 5e). If you use extensions, they may stop working properly. Are you sure you want to continue?"
I 100% agree with this. In fact I added a request for it on the Feature Request list back in March.

For everyone, please take a look and consider voting for it. You can find it by searching the Feature Request (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/featurerequests/featurerequests.php) list for "Warning Msg for Non-Content Updates"

[AlterZwerg]

With Foundry, I was forced to lock the version when I got everything working for a campaign. I could absolutely guarantee and afternoon's SysAdmin work for myself if I ever wanted to update.

With FGU, I update weekly and if anything breaks, it'll be one of the small number of extensions which I just turn off for the week. And I rarely need to do that.


But at least in Foundry you have the option to keep stuff from updating by locking it or you can roll back to a previous (working) version.
This option is simply not a thing with FG but would be very helpful for issues like this.

I don´t run 5E and stopped shelling money out to WotC long ago. I want FG to improve so personally i can live very well with these growing pains.

[eporrini]

Extensions are a necessity for me and my players for 5e. I am not a developer, but it feels like we change core variables too often, which cause the syntax of extensions to require significant rework at times. My frustration lies in the FGU development team taking no accountability for the breaking of extensions that are critical to the overall use of FGU. Developers need to work in a less invasive way where possible to avoid levelling extensions during updates. The amount of impact recently has IMO far exceeded what I have seen in the past in terms of breaking/significant rework required.

I agree with some posters who said "don't update". That's sad, truly. I am going to be in a mode where I get stable and tell all of my players we will not be updating, missing out on new features and capabilities being introduced. I can only imagine that when I add new purchased content, at some point that will error out due to not updating...

My biggest issue presently is that certain key developers of extensions (BMOS, MeAndUnique to name a couple) don't have time or have stepped away from their extensions. I do not blame them, they have no obligation to provide updates to free extensions and it's a lot of work. When this happens, other developer "heroes" step in sometimes to help, but then you get into a Gitlab repo situation of hunting through threads for updates and knowing auto updates are out of the picture. There is no good way for a developer to take over abandoned extensions. I think there should be something in a EULA that says if an extension is abandoned another dev is allowed to lift it out and start updating it, even if under a new name or revision. I believe that certain abandoned (foundational) extensions could be taken by the FGU developers and incorporated. You likely have the stats on what's being pulled down from the Forge to gauge overall customer usage.

Bottom line, we need the FGU devs and leadership to get with extension devs to work through a better plan than exists today that makes sense for everyone. Extensions are too important (some are critical) to go through this suffrage each time we update.

[bwatford]

While I personally use and enjoy several extensions, none are essential for playing 5e or any other ruleset. The base functionality is sufficient for each ruleset. Extensions do make life easier by adding automation and other features, but they are not a necessity. We often become accustomed to the convenience they offer and forget that the game functions well without them, albeit with a bit more effort. It is still significantly better than pen and paper.

The developers provide a test channel for extension writers to work within before a release. The main issues are the lack of documentation from the developers and the limited time available to the authors. Every update tends to break something, and I do not foresee this changing. However, we can strive to minimize the impact.

I believe the development cycles are too rapid, almost weekly, which poses a significant challenge for developers who lack the documentation needed to comply in a timely manner. Since no one is making a living off extensions, free time is limited. These cycles should occur once a month at most, with weeks of lead time, rather than an active development cycle where changes are added to the test channel daily, impacting extensions.

Development cycles need better management, with documentation of changes provided as soon as they enter the test channel. Subsequent updates should only address fixes, not add new features. Changes should only enter the test channel once they are finalized on the development side.

While there is a rush to release new features, the current approach appears quite amateurish and ultimately drives users and extension writers away from the software. We have lost many talented contributors in the past 6-8 months due to the lack of time to continue development, leaving us with several “good” but unsupported extensions that are being patched together by volunteers.

We need to improve.

Phase 1: Developers work behind the scenes to develop the next version.

Phase 2: Documentation of upcoming changes is sent to third-party developers.

Phase 3: The version enters the testing phase. Extension authors work on updated versions during this period, which lasts for at least 30 days. No additional features are added during this time, except for bug fixes. The software developers collaborate with third-party developers to ensure everything is ready for the official release.

Phase 4: Official release.

[Zacchaeus]

There have only been three ruleset updates this year, in March, August and September.

Anything else has been bug fixes or updates to modules.

[Vass_Dts]

The amount of impact recently has IMO far exceeded what I have seen in the past in terms of breaking/significant rework required.

Fantasy Grounds is a 20-years-old program. It has been iteratively been build upon brick by brick. When the jump to Unity occurred, FG wasn't exactly re-written from the ground up. A colossal portion of its original code was just transplanted into Unity. During the first stage of this transition into Unity, the aim was to have the thing work in much the same way as it used to, but with some additional features whenever possible.

Now we are in the stage where the Dev team want to get rid of all bloated portions of the code, to streamline and optimize the software going forward. This endeavor is the primary reason you've seen more breaks than usual over the past year and a half or so. While some breaks in 5e did happen due to the 2024 implementation of the rules, many actually happened because of the streamlining of the base code. And while it is frustrating for us users (hey, I still haven't updated for instance), you can't have the software remain static. That's not good for any of us.

But yes, SW, from now on should be take steps to address possible breakages. Documentation is the key, as @bwatford said (among other things). Breaks will never stop happening as Ruin said earlier. The goal is to make them less frequent and less painful (particularly for extension devs).

EDIT/ADDENDUM: All of the above is my personal understanding of the situation, and I may have some details wrong, but the general gist applies.

[Laerun]

Fantasy Grounds Community Extensions:

Fantasy Grounds extensions are powerful tools developed by the community to enhance gameplay, customize rulesets, and automate tasks within the platform. However, these extensions come with their own set of challenges, particularly related to maintenance, compatibility, and ongoing support.

Key Insights on Fantasy Grounds Extensions:

Community-Driven Development: Extensions are typically created by individual developers who initially build them to improve their own gameplay. Over time, these tools are shared on platforms like the Fantasy Grounds Forge, where they can be distributed for free or at a low cost, giving them more visibility and allowing other players to benefit from these enhancements.

Technical Debt and Maintenance Challenges: Many extension developers face the reality of technical debt. As their portfolio of extensions grows, so does the difficulty of keeping them updated and compatible with the latest Fantasy Grounds updates. Frequent updates to Fantasy Grounds' core and specific rulesets can lead to breakages that developers must address. However, testing all possible scenarios is often beyond the capacity of individual developers, especially as they juggle multiple extensions.

Updating and Compatibility Issues: Extensions can conflict with each other or with updated rulesets, causing unexpected behavior during gameplay. Since SmiteWorks (the company behind Fantasy Grounds) provides indirect support but does not maintain these third-party extensions, the responsibility for updates and fixes lies primarily with the original developer. This can lead to delays in updates or, in some cases, developers abandoning their extensions due to the workload involved.

No Universal Testing Framework: There is no comprehensive testing system that ensures all extensions work flawlessly across various use cases and ruleset updates. Developers rely on feedback from users to identify and fix issues that arise, often only after an extension has already been impacted by an update.

Best Practices for Extension Developers: Developers are encouraged to keep an eye on beta announcements for Fantasy Grounds and to test their extensions on these versions in advance of major updates. By carefully managing changes and minimizing overrides of core elements, developers can reduce the frequency and impact of breakages. Creating backup copies of ruleset files they modify can also help streamline the update process when core changes occur.

User Awareness and Acceptance: For users, understanding the nature of extensions is crucial. While they add great value and convenience, they are not essential and come with inherent risks due to the evolving nature of Fantasy Grounds. It’s important for users to stay informed about the extensions they use and be prepared for potential disruptions during updates.

Extensions are a testament to the creativity and dedication of the Fantasy Grounds community, offering enhanced gameplay experiences. However, they also require ongoing commitment from both developers and users to manage and mitigate the challenges that come with integrating these custom tools into the evolving Fantasy Grounds ecosystem. For more information and guidance on using and developing extensions, you can visit the Fantasy Grounds Forge author's page where you subscribed to any given extension, and the Developer Guide Atlassian and/or these official FG forums.

https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996644285/Developer+Guide
https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/

[Mike Serfass]

As for testing, that can't be done by just the devs. Developers actually aren't the best people to QA their own code, much like a writer shouldn't be the editor of their own stories. There are reasons those jobs are separate.
We need volunteers from the community to switch to the test channel and test the CoreRPG changes, the ruleset changes, and the extensions.
As both a ruleset and extension dev, I've missed bugs because I just didn't have time to test everything, and nobody else tested that functionality, and it wasn't caught until after release.
Having test options doesn't help if nobody tests.
Volunteers willing to jump into the test channel are rare.
People willing to report and explain a bug are uncommon.
Those who criticize and complain about bugs without useful input are too common.

[ghen]

I think jharp's message about automatically unloading extensions means well, but a lot of extensions don't need constant updates so they'd just be waiting around for a version number increase before they could get used.

The best solution is better documentation when ruleset code is changed. Like, real nitty-gritty stuff. Effortless extensions support has GOT to be worth more to SW's bottom line then the extra time it takes to document changes as they are implemented.

Less time for extension devs chasing bugs means less burnout (deprecated extensions=dead platform), less fear making extensions work on more rulesets, and more time to make more extensions.

[BushViper]

I understand the complexities and nuances of both sides of the debate, but I'd like to point out two things:

1. The customer is always right. I don't mean that in the literal sense, but rather more broadly. If a company is not providing the products/services that the majority of the customers are asking for it doesn't matter what the company thinks because they're not going to remain in business for long. Right now, we're seeing failure after failure in the gaming industry as companies continue to tell its customers what they should want/like. We know what we want and we tell you. Often.

Ignore your customers at your peril.

2. Smiteworks created, promotes, and profits from the Forge. There's zero debate about SW having some responsibility in reducing the pain points of using extensions. When they work, extensions objectively improve the user experience. For some, that improvement is so massive that a stock client is a deal breaker. However, when maintaining an extension becomes a repeated source of irritation and inconvenience it can (and does) undermine customer loyalty and drive people away.

I'm not suggesting that the issue of extensions is a harbinger of doom, but it's definitely a very important element. And I don't think the community is asking for too much in their desire for extensions to be broken less often and more resources be spent absorbing the incredible ideas that already exist rather than be wasted on producing gimmicks.

Even the people that are more inclined to side with Smiteworks on this topic clearly understand the importance and value of extensions so their responses are half-hearted and more-or-less -- "You're right, but you don't have to be a douche about it." The latter is probably true, but the reality is that we live in a world where the customer has the expectation that the product they buy works and when it doesn't, it pisses people off. Even more so when the product is literally broken by the company that sold it to you to begin with.

[MartianXi]

You likely have the stats on what's being pulled down from the Forge to gauge overall customer usage.

This is a great point... I'm sure SW could pull data from the Forge correlated against a list of active users and get an idea of which extensions are used the most. If they aren't too robust they should be seen as valuable and maybe retooled and added to a ruleset.

I didn't even know about the suggestions voting page until last week and forums and voting systems only show a portion of reality. Those who are proactive will post and vote but they only represent a portion of users. Follow the trail of where the forge money is focused and you'll learn the truth.

[rhagelstrom]

I'm sure all the standardization is great in the long term. I can see how it makes building new stuff or rulesets faster, however, that is the last compliment this post is going to give.

We seem to be going backwards as far as standardization across rulesets with regards to the latest 5E update. It used to be that we could, for the most part, write a xml definition for something and it would work with 5E, PF1E, SF, perhaps PF2. Case in point lets take items for example, a fairly universal thing that shouldn't deviate much if any across rulesets. In the past one could write a single xml definition and it would work and you could support multiple rulesets. Now with the latest 5E update, and a bit before this https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?67126-PFRPG-Extraplanar-Containers&p=723007&viewfull=1#post723007 there needs to be an exception that 5E is different for some reason. That is not standardized. Furthermore, what was broken in the Aug update, see previous post, was once again broken a few weeks later with the 5E update https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?67126-PFRPG-Extraplanar-Containers&p=726339&viewfull=1#post726339 These sorts of changes should be made all at once and save everyone the pain of all this churn. Additionally, with the new 5E changes, the underlying scripts don't function correctly, such as bag collapsing of the items for 5E, but they do for all the other rulesets, PF, SF, PF2. Again, we are talking items and bags, there isn't any significant difference across the rulests for things like this warrant them being special cased. I suspect some/all of this is due to the giant Legacy/2024 box at the bottom of all these record sheets, which is completely unnecessary because it could have just been a toggle at the top like itemID. This would have also saved valuable screen real estate which I think for most people would have been preferable and potentially some of the breakage of extensions, in the case of ExtraPlaner Containers ext it for sure would have made it immune to the update.

Then we have the changes just to be changes with this latest 5E update. As SR pointed out, why change the anchor name, as you have to know this is going to break stuff, and for what benefit? Its a name, and changing it still is a name. Let's move on to renaming RaceManager and the associated lua file to SpeciesManager. Yes, the string for Race changed to Species, that is fine that is a string definition. Call it whatever you want, spagettimonster for all I care or whatever is in vogue, but there is no reason to change RaceManager to SpeciesManger as none of that is user facing. If you want to scrub Race to Species for whatever internal discussion that is fine too, but then we still have SubRace and not SubSpecies so there is no benefit in renaming this stuff and the only thing it accomplishes is breaking things.

Do I want any of the above to be addressed? No because that would again break things. This is the bed we lie in now it seems.

The way things are going we won't have to worry about breaking extensions because there won't be any devs left to build extensions as it isn't worth the effort. We have bmos who is tired of the updates https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?60308-bmos-extensions&p=724693&viewfull=1#post724693, Celestian, who threw in the towel on Advance Effects https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?40833-5E-Advanced-Effects-(items-npcs-characters)&p=710452&viewfull=1#post710452 , Silent Ruin who is upset but he is always upset and I don't think I have to link that, Mad Nomad who is on the cups of hanging it up https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?79344-Mad-Nomad-Extensions&p=726366&viewfull=1#post726366 , and Me&Unique who has apparently left and before he left, I had a private discussion with him being unhappy about the direction of things after building Kingdoms and Warfare and then being put in the situation of having to change things. I'm sure there are a number more but haven't said anything.

It probably is true that most people don't run extensions, but a lot of the core user base does. The ext devs are providing thousands of people hours of free labor and passive income, if they are sold on the forge, to improve the product but they are getting scared off. It wouldn't be long before the core users start re-evaluating their options as the VTT market is much more competitive than it was 4 yrs ago. The core users are your champions of the platform and do a lot to help other users.

A number of these extensions wouldn't even need to be built/supported if they were in FG in the first place. Collapsing bags down (ExtraPlaner Containers) isn't an exotic concept. Players having pets (Friend Zone), isn't an exotic concept. Letting people know how their scores are adjusted because of effects (Character Sheet Effects Display) isnt an exotic concept, Defining an area of effect (Aura Effects) isn't an exotic concept. Attaching effects to items (Advanced Effects) is not an exotic concept.

We also have the issue of people doing an update and a number of these errors are from exts that are not updated. The problem being is some of these extensions on the forge are abandoned and as far as I can tell will never be updated. The only way to get some of the updates is out of band via the forums or hunting down githubs. Some of these extensions have been known abandoned for months (Me & Unique), Kit n Kaboodle. Why are these still up on the forge? They either should be taken down, per the crafter agreement, or found a different maintainer. A lot of these can be forked and reposted to the forge if need be. There is no leadership from SW on what is going on with these abandoned exts, how to move them to someone else, or what the path forward is. People are going to continue to post errors for these things as long as they are up, because I got it off the forge I expect it to actually run.

Don't update also works for the short term and I do recommend that after each quarterly update and any significant ruleset update. However, don't update doesn't work long term like some other platforms because the software update is tied to the store update so the only way you can get stuff that you buy on the store is to update. So one can't tell someone to just not update in perpetuity to stay in a known good state.

[MrDDT]

As a user mostly only here reading this makes me worried about using extensions. I see how much they improve my games and it’s a huge question if SW is not really supporting extension makers and making it harder for them then it’s greatly going to cut into them staying around.

[LordEntrails]

FYI, Abandoned extensions can not just be given to some other developer to take over. SmiteWorks has to follow Intellectual Property laws. And most community devs do not specify a license for their extensions. Therefore, the law says they retain all rights to the code. Therefore it would be illegal for someone to take over the code.

I've tried before to get the community devs to just post their licenses. With the hope that many could/would use something like one of the MIT or CC licenses that would allow collaboration. But I got zero takers. And to my knowledge, Rob2E is the only one who planned the handoff of his work. Simple put, most community devs don't care enough about what happens when/if they leave the community to spend any time or effort accommodating it.

[SilentRuin]

FYI, Abandoned extensions can not just be given to some other developer to take over. SmiteWorks has to follow Intellectual Property laws. And most community devs do not specify a license for their extensions. Therefore, the law says they retain all rights to the code. Therefore it would be illegal for someone to take over the code.

I've tried before to get the community devs to just post their licenses. With the hope that many could/would use something like one of the MIT or CC licenses that would allow collaboration. But I got zero takers. And to my knowledge, Rob2E is the only one who planned the handoff of his work. Simple put, most community devs don't care enough about what happens when/if they leave the community to spend any time or effort accommodating it.

Expand your knowledge.

All my extension code has license at top.
Multiple places I’ve told people they could look at my code to figure out how to do stuff or solve it like that.
Grim press controls forge delivery of my stuff and has written permission to take over fully if I vaporize.


Probably other devs who do this I suspect.

Be wary of lumping us all into the same pot!

[LordEntrails]

Expand your knowledge.

All my extension code has license at top.
Multiple places I’ve told people they could look at my code to figure out how to do stuff or solve it like that.
Grim press controls forge delivery of my stuff and has written permission to take over fully if I vaporize.


Probably other devs who do this I suspect.

Be wary of lumping us all into the same pot!
Excellent! I'm very glad to hear that. And I hope you are right, that other devs too have made such plans. But based on what rhagelstrom said above, it does not sound like many of the devs they are stating have or might left/leave the community have done so.

Besides, adding a little cummin and salt and pepper, you all taste pretty good when in the same pot ;)
edit: But yes, I should be more careful to not imply everyone is in the same group, regardless of the topic.

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

One simple thing I learned is, just be polite and communicate with the creators and they will pay attention to you and will fix it when possible or even make the code of their extensions available so you can try, if you can't wait... in short, communication and politeness are the key!

[ddavison]

I reached out to MeAndUnique regarding reports that some of his extensions were reportedly broken and abandoned. We wanted to give him time to respond before deciding what to do with these. SmiteWorks has no rights to pass his work or any other developers work to another developer without explicit rights granted directly from the creator of those extensions. We can de-list items on the Forge and even remove a build so it simply drops off the extension list for people unless it gets re-activated with a new build. His extensions are currently free and he has a very high rating on each of his items.

The best thing you can do if you find an extension that is broken (paid or free) is the following:
1. Contact the developer by sending them a message through the Forge
2. Make the message clear and explain steps to reproduce the bug. Include the ruleset you are using and if you are using any other extensions with it.
3. Click on the Forum thread link from the Forge Item and join a discussion there to see if other users are experiencing the same issue.
4. Patiently wait for the creator to respond or post a new build. In the meantime, you can disable the extension on your campaigns
5. If it is a paid extension and within 30 days of purchase on the Forge, you can request a refund through support.fantasygrounds.com
6. Change the rating to warn others that the extension is broken. If it is later fixed, you can increase the rating again
7. If an extension is completely broken and it isn't due to an interaction with another extension, you can report this to support.fantasygrounds.com

There are currently 1,624 extensions on the Forge. We have no way of knowing which extensions are working or not working and which have been abandoned. Even MeAndUnique, I couldn't tell you which of his extensions are having any issues without researching each one.

The broader discussion about changes to the core software that require changes to extensions is an internal discussion here at SmiteWorks. We will be discussing how we can continue moving the platform forward and if we can take steps to minimize the impact on extension developers. I suspect we can improve this area somewhat. We will probably never be able to fully avoid breaking compatibility with extensions, but there are some refactoring steps that we can do differently to aid us in this goal. This latest development cycle was compressed for us for a number of reasons. In general, we try to have stuff sit in a TEST branch for a while longer to allow community devs the chance to test and modify code for upcoming releases. Engaging with our dev team at this point in the laboratory threads will help smooth the process for all involved and the community devs will also be able to help one another.

[MrDDT]

FYI, Abandoned extensions can not just be given to some other developer to take over. SmiteWorks has to follow Intellectual Property laws. And most community devs do not specify a license for their extensions. Therefore, the law says they retain all rights to the code. Therefore it would be illegal for someone to take over the code.

I've tried before to get the community devs to just post their licenses. With the hope that many could/would use something like one of the MIT or CC licenses that would allow collaboration. But I got zero takers. And to my knowledge, Rob2E is the only one who planned the handoff of his work. Simple put, most community devs don't care enough about what happens when/if they leave the community to spend any time or effort accommodating it.

The case with M&U is they are open so you can just take it over.

Of course you would have to relist it. Which is where part of the problem is.
It would be nice to have a system in place to transfer or have multi owner of a product.

[ddavison]

Does he have this written in his code or description some where? Being free doesn’t typically grant anyone else rights to distribute or make derivative copies.

If we receive permission, we can move them to another dev. We did this for Rob Twohy at his request.

[Trenloe]

Does he have this written in his code or description some where?
Some of their products, if stored on GitHub, have an MIT license. For example, the Temporal Fixation extension: https://github.com/MeAndUnique/TemporalFixation?tab=MIT-1-ov-

The extensions covered by the MIT license in GitHub appear to be Constitutional Amendments, Kit N Kaboodle, Friend Zone, Blissful Ignorance and Temporal Fixation: https://github.com/MeAndUnique This doesn't appear to cover all of their products released in the Forge (it covers 50% of them).

[Nylanfs]

edit: But yes, I should be more careful to not imply everyone is in the same group, regardless of the topic.

Except those people who like pineapple on pizza, we are always awesome. :)

I've always found that the average person doesn't have a firm grasp on copyright, IP law, and licensing. Granted I am a bit biased having handled PCGen's PR and licensing for about 16ish years. :)

[Mike Serfass]

FYI, Abandoned extensions can not just be given to some other developer to take over. SmiteWorks has to follow Intellectual Property laws. And most community devs do not specify a license for their extensions. Therefore, the law says they retain all rights to the code. Therefore it would be illegal for someone to take over the code.

I've tried before to get the community devs to just post their licenses. With the hope that many could/would use something like one of the MIT or CC licenses that would allow collaboration. But I got zero takers. And to my knowledge, Rob2E is the only one who planned the handoff of his work. Simple put, most community devs don't care enough about what happens when/if they leave the community to spend any time or effort accommodating it.

Like SilentRuin, I add licenses to my extensions, and I distribute them unencrypted and invite others to look at my code.
I added licenses after I read your referenced post about licenses. I hadn't thought about that previously, as I'm sure most devs don't, and probably people who aren't devs by trade have no idea how IP works. So thanks for that post.
I use the GNU GPL, which will let someone take over if I vaporize.
If I ever plan on leaving FG, I will look for someone to take over. And I'd contact SmiteWorks to tell them they're free to transition my extensions to someone else.
Not everyone does that, unfortunately. I've looked at various extension code bases, and I rarely see a license.

Maybe we could have a forum where extension devs could post their desire for the fate of their extensions if they become orphaned.
Maybe SmiteWorks could have an extension developer agreement that covers this. And require some kind of license be attached to extensions to cover orphans.
We could come up with something to help prevent extension limbo.

[SilentRuin]

You know all this negative feeling I have and others have probably needs a reminder that extensions while no easy feat to maintain, still give power that FGU will likely never provide for us. I was testing the latest FGU drop with BCEG and AURA extension (and all the other ones I use) to insure they work with the more complex things I do with my players. They are currently working.

Which can give you some pretty cool results IMHO. I tell nothing about how to do what I'm doing in this video but show a complex but simple test case (copy of live game moment) I use to test out that a number of interwoven extensions are still playing nice together doing what I want them to do. This, unfortunately, is a necessary step any extension provider should probably do after an FGU drop and the extensions they play with are "fixed", "neutered", or "spayed" (whatever term you feel best suits the situation) after FGU drops from TEST to LIVE. I actually wish FGU would take fixed campaigns with extensions loaded up to run set piece tests so that they could see if they are about to kill our stuff and come up with some idea for us what to expect and what has changed (documentation).

Do I expect this to ever happen? Not really. But it would be cool if it did. Here is my test I run to try to kick BCEG and AURA and the other extensions I use right in the you know wheres. If they are still standing afterwards - success...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbB2D_e9t7Y

[Laerun]

You know all this negative feeling I have and others have probably needs a reminder that extensions while no easy feat to maintain, still give power that FGU will likely never provide for us. I was testing the latest FGU drop with BCEG and AURA extension (and all the other ones I use) to insure they work with the more complex things I do with my players. They are currently working.

Which can give you some pretty cool results IMHO. I tell nothing about how to do what I'm doing in this video but show a complex but simple test case (copy of live game moment) I use to test out that a number of interwoven extensions are still playing nice together doing what I want them to do. This, unfortunately, is a necessary step any extension provider should probably do after an FGU drop and the extensions they play with are "fixed", "neutered", or "spayed" (whatever term you feel best suits the situation) after FGU drops from TEST to LIVE. I actually wish FGU would take fixed campaigns with extensions loaded up to run set piece tests so that they could see if they are about to kill our stuff and come up with some idea for us what to expect and what has changed (documentation).

Do I expect this to ever happen? Not really. But it would be cool if it did. Here is my test I run to try to kick BCEG and AURA and the other extensions I use right in the you know wheres. If they are still standing afterwards - success...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbB2D_e9t7Y

That's nice that you provide use cases at least.

[eporrini]

I now have almost all of my extensions fixed or at least not causing errors. THANK YOU to all developers that support these extensions, it's a huge effort that is greatly appreciated. In this round I've lost Local Dice Tower (no longer supported), which I consider another of the foundational capabilities that should just be part of the game. I guess I am going into a hibernation mode. I've asked all of my players to no longer run updates, and I've also decided to freeze future updates until further notice. I am disappointed. I hate the thought of not having new features or even fixes available to me as part of the update process. I also think foundationally the model is broken for Forge. As developers add new features to their extensions (or new extensions) with Forge being the distribution center and update point, I have no idea how I would add anything without clicking the FGU update button to pull it down. If I buy a new module, either campaign or book, how do I load it without the update button? As many of the devs have pointed out, some new system will have to be put in place, our extension devs are burning out of moving off. PLEASE consider a process review and rework of code updates and a better system for how to minimize impact to both extension developers and the customers downstream. It may feel like I am not supportive of SW or their development team. I am. I've been using and investing in this platform for years. As part of any business, it's critical to listen to the customer base and adapt/change to continue the growth of the product. Looking forward to my next campaign session on Monday.

[Tooting Dog]

I am with you on the local dice tower. I play on a laptop, and I enjoy being able to play in the evening in bed which I cannot do with a PC. The dice tower is cute and all, however, every bit of screen real estate is precious and if any function can be clickable instead of taking up screen space, I am all for that. Thanks for the work on your extensions!

[Vass_Dts]

If your DM is using Requested Rolls extension, they can send you Tower request rolls, so you don’t have to fiddle around for the tower. It’s not a perfect solution to your problem, but it can get the job done if the DM wishes to have that in their workflow.

Speaking strictly personally here, one reason I don’t even have the tower icon visible is because all checks are made by me sending them to players, rather than have them fiddle around their character sheet tabs. And I can toggle a tower lock from there.

But, quite frankly, I also rarely use tower rolls.

[Tooting Dog]

In a thread about how often extensions break, you suggest an extension? ;-) :)

[Vass_Dts]

Of course I do. The point of this whole discussion is not to stop using extensions, but to explain why it is imperative that conditions improve so that extensions don’t break like every two weeks.

[MartianXi]

So, what extensions has this week's update broken? Dare I update?

[MrDDT]

So, what extensions has this week's update broken? Dare I update?

Likely none, they didn't mess with the coding naming or anything.

[Vass_Dts]

It did actually break Mad Nomad’s Character Sheet Tweaks and Tweaks Upgrade, but Moon Wizard did email MNM with some fixes on the matter, though there are still a few kinks to iron out before a fix is released.

[DeathMagnet]

Fantasy grounds is pretty much self contained. Copy your fantasy grounds folder (minus ext and modules folders) to another location before doing update. If things go wrong restore backup.

[MrDDT]

Fantasy grounds is pretty much self contained. Copy your fantasy grounds folder (minus ext and modules folders) to another location before doing update. If things go wrong restore backup.

You clearly don't get the problem.

If I'm on Version 4.4.4, and my players have 4.4.5, we can't play.

[damned]

Generally that is not an issue.
Its if the players are 4.5 and you are on 4.4 that you have an issue

[MrDDT]

Generally that is not an issue.
Its if the players are 4.5 and you are on 4.4 that you have an issue

Umm it happens if you follow the directions of the post above where you locked your updates.

Some people play on many tables too thus they updated already.

Follow the post logic of the GM is not updating. Which means all the players can’t update either.

[damned]

Umm it happens if you follow the directions of the post above where you locked your updates.

Some people play on many tables too thus they updated already.

Follow the post logic of the GM is not updating. Which means all the players can’t update either.

It doesnt matter on "minor" updates.
It only matters on updates that change the engine.

[eporrini]

With the new feature added of Elven Accuracy (I think this is great, I love these features being incorporated into core, even the update xp automatically is much appreciated) I had an extension called 5e Advantage Display. It's an old one, not on Forge I do not believe. It's now broken. What it did was show what the roll order was for advantage/disadvantage. So as an example, for disadvantage roll (rolls 20 2) it would indicate "dropped first 20". For elven accuracy it would do the same (2, 2, 20) dropped first 2, dropped 2nd 2, so you would know it was the decider. I think it's really great to know that detail. Any chance we could get that added as a general feature? I would be happy to share the extension if someone wants to see it, I have no claim over it though. Original author was Kentmccullough I believe.

[bwatford]

With the new feature added of Elven Accuracy (I think this is great, I love these features being incorporated into core, even the update xp automatically is much appreciated) I had an extension called 5e Advantage Display. It's an old one, not on Forge I do not believe. It's now broken. What it did was show what the roll order was for advantage/disadvantage. So as an example, for disadvantage roll (rolls 20 2) it would indicate "dropped first 20". For elven accuracy it would do the same (2, 2, 20) dropped first 2, dropped 2nd 2, so you would know it was the decider. I think it's really great to know that detail. Any chance we could get that added as a general feature? I would be happy to share the extension if someone wants to see it, I have no claim over it though. Original author was Kentmccullough I believe.

It was working for me in last nights game. May be a conflict with another extension you have installed.

[LordEntrails]

With the new feature added of Elven Accuracy (I think this is great, I love these features being incorporated into core, even the update xp automatically is much appreciated) I had an extension called 5e Advantage Display. It's an old one, not on Forge I do not believe. It's now broken. What it did was show what the roll order was for advantage/disadvantage. So as an example, for disadvantage roll (rolls 20 2) it would indicate "dropped first 20". For elven accuracy it would do the same (2, 2, 20) dropped first 2, dropped 2nd 2, so you would know it was the decider. I think it's really great to know that detail. Any chance we could get that added as a general feature? I would be happy to share the extension if someone wants to see it, I have no claim over it though. Original author was Kentmccullough I believe.
The devs ask that we add feature requests to the Feature Request list found under the Help pull-down.

[Moon Wizard]

The detail for dropped dice in the default Elven Accuracy support is right there in the chat window. It shows the specific dropped dice out of the three dice rolled.

Regards,
JPG

[Gawain the Great]

I have adopted another option.

I go with the "/console skip" option. In essence, we just ignore the problems.

I love my extensions, AND I have purchased a bunch of them--love my new shiny toys. I probably run 20-30 exts most of the time. We are well past not updating FGU for many of the extensions. I run our game in parallel, using Dungeon Alchemist for a 3D world and FGU for the 2D map version and game-play engine. I turn "Shared Screen" on and off in Zoom to move the 3D world around, and I also run Syrinscape both triggered and manually. SO, there is a ton of stuff going on for me during game play: I have five monitors going. So, we just play the game and assume everything is working the way it should. It's worked pretty well for us, and FGU allows for more customization and home-brew creativity than anything else.

During prep time, I have to deal with some issues, like the issues with Kit'N'Kaboodle, which is as essential to any home-brew DM as any extension there is.

Every now and then the game play gets a bit clunky, and we all shut down and reboot, but even that is very rare (once every couple of 4-hour games, or so).

Just another perspective from someone who is both a fan of FGU AND almost every extension.

[Vass_Dts]

Kit'N'Kaboodle is mostly fixed, but you have to download the fixed version from a link in its thread. It's no longer updated via the Forge.

[rhagelstrom]

I have adopted another option.

I go with the "/console skip" option. In essence, we just ignore the problems.

I love my extensions, AND I have purchased a bunch of them--love my new shiny toys. I probably run 20-30 exts most of the time. We are well past not updating FGU for many of the extensions. I run our game in parallel, using Dungeon Alchemist for a 3D world and FGU for the 2D map version and game-play engine. I turn "Shared Screen" on and off in Zoom to move the 3D world around, and I also run Syrinscape both triggered and manually. SO, there is a ton of stuff going on for me during game play: I have five monitors going. So, we just play the game and assume everything is working the way it should. It's worked pretty well for us, and FGU allows for more customization and home-brew creativity than anything else.

During prep time, I have to deal with some issues, like the issues with Kit'N'Kaboodle, which is as essential to any home-brew DM as any extension there is.

Every now and then the game play gets a bit clunky, and we all shut down and reboot, but even that is very rare (once every couple of 4-hour games, or so).

Just another perspective from someone who is both a fan of FGU AND almost every extension.

/console skip is a great band aid for getting through a session but it should be used with caution. If you know you need to use /console skip it hides underlying issues and can and also has know to cause database corruption depending on the error and what the extension is trying to do. You really need to not use extensions that are throwing errors.

[jharp]

I have a new extension (windows only atm) that might help with some of the pain felt with updates. It allows you to control updates to Fantasy Grounds. You can now select if you want FG updated, or just a forge product updated. Installation details and usage instructions are at https://github.com/jharp/UpDEnhanced

You can install it without a license to make certain it launches for you. Afterwards you can obtain a license at https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/944/view

Jason

[MartianXi]

I have a new extension (windows only atm) that might help with some of the pain felt with updates. It allows you to control updates to Fantasy Grounds. You can now select if you want FG updated, or just a forge product updated. Installation details and usage instructions are at https://github.com/jharp/UpDEnhanced

You can install it without a license to make certain it launches for you. Afterwards you can obtain a license at https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/944/view

Jason

Has anyone tried this yet?

[jharp]

My support thread has the first review. They seem happy.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?82995

[houseofdexter]

I think what would help a bit, is more insight in what is causing the issue. When an error is thrown, it's next to impossible to tell where it's coming from. If it's coming from the forge, it's most likely encrypted and we can't search the scripts. I can say my headaches with FGU got worse once we got encrypted scripts. I understand why, but I don't have to like it. It makes it next to impossible to tell where errors are coming from.

[Moon Wizard]

It's up to each publisher (or forge crafter) whether their code/content is vaulted or not. It's not a decision that is up to us.

Regards,
JPG

[houseofdexter]

It's up to each publisher (or forge crafter) whether their code/content is vaulted or not. It's not a decision that is up to us.

Regards,
JPG

Actually it is as you offered the service with the forge. What would help is knowing what extension is throwing the error sense we can't search the extensions anymore.

[Vass_Dts]

When an error is thrown, it's next to impossible to tell where it's coming from.

I dunno if I agree with your thesis. I'm no coder, but 9 times out of 10, I can figure out which extension is throwing the error from the error-message in the console. For instance, if I have an error that says something's wrong with the CT, and I have an extension that alters the CT, chances are, that is the extension that's causing it.

[Trenloe]

Error messages include a reference to the base code that raises the error - this will include the ruleset or extension name. My only gripe with the message is that if the path to the ruleset/extension file is long it gets truncated - it would be nice if the whole path (ruleset/extension: path to file) was included in the message and not truncated.

[Moon Wizard]

Yeah, I would love that too. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the Lua script engine limits code block identifiers to 40 characters.

Regards,
JPG