Vehicle NPC driver

[MikeRPG]

Hi,

When I assign an NPC record to 'pilot' to an NPC vehicle, and put that vehicle in the combat tracker, the vehicle's combat 'to hit' roll always applies an 'unskilled' roll (d4-2), it does not the NPC 'shooting' skill (but it *does* link the NPC shooting skill to the vehicle weapon, so if the attack hits, it correctly applies the vehicle's weapon damage).

If i click instead into the NPC record sheet, and use the 'Shooting' skill from there, it uses the NPC shooting skill correctly, but does not link it to any vehicle or weapon. (So the attack roll is correctly made now, but does not link to any target or vehicle weapon).

This issue does not happen when a PC/ party record is linked to a vehicle - that all links up and works fine. The issue is only when NPC records are put in charge of the vehicle.

Can this be fixed please?

thanks!

[Arsilon]

I just tried it and it seems to work fine. What setting and/or mods do you have enabled?

[Mike Serfass]

In addition to Arsilon's question, and to clarify:
When you drop the NPC into the pilot position, do the weapon attack dice change to match the NPC's shooting die?
When you double click the attack die on the vehicle, does it roll unskilled instead of the displayed die?
Did you verify that the NPC has Shooting?
If you're using the SFC extension with missiles or torpedoes, it uses Electronics.
Are there any other characters assigned to the weapons?
Have you tried dropping a character (even the pilot) into a weapon slot?

Rolling the Shooting (or Fighting or Athletics) skill doesn't apply to any weapon, ever. There's no way to know what weapon it should apply to, or if it's a raw skill roll. No matter what the PC / NPC is assigned to.

Screenshots help, as do videos.

[MikeRPG]

So,

all mods/extensions disabled, it is just the raw SWADE module loaded.
I have taken screenshots of all settings, attached

616916169261693

I have just set up a new 'test' combat; straight from the basic module;


I will answer Mike Serfass' questions as soon as I can - thanks guys!

[MikeRPG]

Haha.... I had no idea I was supposed to assign an NPC/ PC to each weapon :-D I think it is probably as simple as that.

I am only having problems with NPC setups, PC assignments seem to work fine. I'm away at the moment but I will give everything a really good test just as soon as I can, it seems to work from a really quick try.


Thanks guys!

[Arsilon]

You don't have to assign an NPC to each weapon. But if you don't the weapons will use whatever the Pilot's relevant combat skill is for that weapon, eg Shooting.

If you drag the pilot to the pilot 'seat' you should see the piloting die change to whatever the Pilot's skill is (depending on the vehicle type and what type it requires).

You should also see the die next to each of the mounted weapons also change to whatever the pilot's combat (shooting?) skill is.

And Yes, you could also then drag other NPC's to the specific weapon.

In my games, when I don't necessarily care that "Sam" is mounting Gun 1, "Bob" is mounting Gun 2 and "Harry" is driving, I just make a generic "Crew" NPC that has all the right skills and just have them act however many times as there are crew members -- to keep the CT simple, I usually just name the NPC whatever the name of the Vehicle is.

(In space combat in my games, you only shoot the ship...some crew may get injured in the process, but you're not aiming to shoot the driver off the front of the stagecoach for instance so it doesn't matter as much)

[Mike Serfass]

I figured out how to reproduce this bug.
I will fix it over this weekend.
As a workaround, add crew to the vehicle before adding the vehicle to the combat tracker.

[MikeRPG]

Thanks Mike. Sorry I haven't had a chance to give further info yet, am still away on hols.

To clarify: I am always using the correct NPC skill (shooting/ driving/ etc) - that should not be an issue so can be discounted. Yes, the combat die are changing correctly to the NPC skill die,

For interest, I have been trying to just add vehicles only to the combat tracker, and prefer not to add the NPC crew as well, to try to avoid cluttering the CT. Is this right, or am I supposed to add the NPC crews too?

A 5-tank battle would become 10 items on the CT (and that's just assuming 1 crew per tank)

Look forward to the update - thanks so much!

[MikeRPG]

OK, so let me see if I can illustrate where I am now;

I want to make two NPC vehicles in combat against each other; a SU-28 (flown by Pilot **), and a T- 72 (driven by Tank Driver ##). To do this, I do the following;

1. I create a copy of both 'vanilla' vehicles from the SWADE core module,
2. I make a new NPC crew for each vehicle (both have Shooting 12 skill)
3. I assign each crew to each vehicle
4. I assign each vehicle weapon to each crew
5. I add both vehicles to the combat tracker (but not the NPC crew)

This is all in the attached screenshot. All skills show correctly on the CT (Shooting d12 for both, and Driving/ Piloting at d10/ d8 respectively. All good.)

Now, to start the combat;
First (red boxes), the T-37 shoots its medium MG. Fantasy Grounds rolls 1d4-2, although shooting skill d12 is (correctly) shown.
61714

From earlier testing, if it had hit, the damage would be correctly applied and everything works as it should. The only issue is the 'unskilled' stat being applied.

If I switch instead to using the crew NPC block (blue boxes), it uses the correct skill (d12), but does not target the SU-27. (I presume this is cos the NPC is not on the combat tracker, and has not targeted the SU, so the system does not know who the NPC is targeting).

I'm particularly interested if my setup in steps 1-5 is correct, or if there is a more correct way? If there is any advice online on how to set up for NPCs, I haven't been able to find it, so am pretty much stumbling in the dark here.

Thanks!

[Jiminimonka]

This is fixed in Tuesdays update.

[Mike Serfass]

Thanks for all that info!
You're doing it correctly. There are a few ways of doing this, and your approach is sound.
That approach will work as expected after the update.

[MikeRPG]

Hi Mike and Jiminimonk (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/member.php?26538-Jiminimonka)a

The patch has come through - thanks. So what seems to happen now is;

1. I add 2 new NPC vehicles to the combat tracker, each is pre-loaded with a 'generic NPC crew' NPC pilot.
2. All skills / stats are correct, and show correctly on the tracker.
3. I do not add crew to the combat tracker.
4. When I click the vehicle's weapon attack, the chat dialogue now shows the *NPC* making the attack. The attack dice is now correct.
5. However, because the NPC is not on the tracker, as has nothing targeted, nothing else happens

Now, if I add the NPC crew member to the tracker, and get the NPC crew to target the enemy vehicle, everything works correctly.

So, I will have to add any NPC who is on a weapon onto the CTracker, and get each one to target an enemy vehicle.

I was hoping to be able to have the vehicles only in the combat tracker, and not each crew member, as this could get out of hand with massive vehicles/skirmishes. Would that be possible?

Also, it looks like some size adjustments are being made to the 'to hit', which I don't remember seeing before. If I have two size 15 vehicles fighting each other, they both seem to get a '+6 vs Gargantuan' bonus. (I don't remember seeing those before, and I'm not really familiar with how these should work in the first place, so not sure if that is right or not?)

Thank you!
61763

[Mike Serfass]

A vehicle can target another vehicle, which is what you should be doing.
If you use the NPC to target a vehicle, it will calculate size medium vs huge (target vehicle's size).
If a vehicle targets the pilot NPC, it will apply a large penalty for huge vs medium.

[MikeRPG]

Last question for now!

If there are various ways to achieve this, and others are managing fine without getting these issues, can anyone tell me how they are doing it correctly? That might be a better answer!

Thanks all

[MikeRPG]

Hi Mike,

I can get an NPC vehicle to target another NPC vehicle.
The 'to hit' roll now uses the correct dice, based on the NPC crew skill

but that is where it stops working... the system shows the 'to hit' roll result only. Lets say I roll a 16 'to hit', there is no follow-through to then roll damage/raise damage for the successful hit.

[Mike Serfass]

Last question for now!

If there are various ways to achieve this, and others are managing fine without getting these issues, can anyone tell me how they are doing it correctly? That might be a better answer!

Thanks all

It's because your name is Mike.
I regularly run into issues others don't, and my name is Mike.
And if there's a bug, I'll run into it. Just like you seem to.
See the correlation?
I fixed a handful of bugs I found in the ruleset that I found during game or while in the code that nobody else reported.
The only time I have trouble finding a bug is when someone else finds it and it's in code I'm working on. Then bugs are elusive.
The bugs have it out for Mikes.

Aki is focused on combat tracker. He'll get this sorted in no time.
Keep reporting bugs, and we'll squish them.
And thanks for taking the time to report and explain.

[Mike Serfass]

Hi Mike,

I can get an NPC vehicle to target another NPC vehicle.
The 'to hit' roll now uses the correct dice, based on the NPC crew skill

but that is where it stops working... the system shows the 'to hit' roll result only. Lets say I roll a 16 'to hit', there is no follow-through to then roll damage/raise damage for the successful hit.

There's no automatic roll of damage after a hit, if that's what you're asking. For a number of reasons. The best one being because players keep clicking the wrong things.
If that's not what you're asking, please give more detail and we'll figure it out.

[MikeRPG]

It's because your name is Mike.
I regularly run into issues others don't, and my name is Mike.
And if there's a bug, I'll run into it. Just like you seem to.
See the correlation?
I fixed a handful of bugs I found in the ruleset that I found during game or while in the code that nobody else reported.
The only time I have trouble finding a bug is when someone else finds it and it's in code I'm working on. Then bugs are elusive.
The bugs have it out for Mikes.

Aki is focused on combat tracker. He'll get this sorted in no time.
Keep reporting bugs, and we'll squish them.
And thanks for taking the time to report and explain.


Now you've explained it, it makes total sense. :-) I will raise this with my parents.

Massively appreciate all you folks great work on bug squishing - thank you.

[MikeRPG]

https://vimeo.com/1003580869

Hopefully I have connected video to illustrate.

There are two combatants; a Zero, and an F-15. (Clearly a fair fight). Both have identical NPC crew assigned. I have only shown the Zero crew on the screen, He is also added to the CT.

0:00 - First, the Zero fires its MG. a few misses, so i add +10 to help it hit. An attack result of 11, but there is no 'successful hit' message, etc in the combat tracker or chat, only the roll result shows in the chat.

0:20 - Try again with the F-15, exactly the same.

0:28 - Now, trying with the NPC crew instead; he gets a hit first time (note there is a size modifier when the crew member shoots, but no size mod when either vehicle shoots).
0:31 - Now the chat log and CT both recognise a 'hit with raise', and the CT adds a 'hit dialogue' under the F-15 entry.
0:34 - I click on the 'raise damage dice', it rolls and applies.
0:46 - Sadly the hit wasnt fatal, so we try again, get a hit, add +20 damage (those Zeros were badass), and the F-15 is toast.

The damage application works great when using the NPC crew (apart from the size modifier, which just feels odd...), but does not work at all when the attack is made by the vehicle.

NOTE: I am using Chillhelms 4C vehicle thing, which I think might be adding the functionality for the crew - but am not totally sure!
Fantasy Grounds Forge (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/439/view)

Hope this explains better - let me know if not

thanks as always!

[MikeRPG]

It's because your name is Mike.
I regularly run into issues others don't, and my name is Mike.
And if there's a bug, I'll run into it. Just like you seem to.
See the correlation?
I fixed a handful of bugs I found in the ruleset that I found during game or while in the code that nobody else reported.
The only time I have trouble finding a bug is when someone else finds it and it's in code I'm working on. Then bugs are elusive.
The bugs have it out for Mikes.

Aki is focused on combat tracker. He'll get this sorted in no time.
Keep reporting bugs, and we'll squish them.
And thanks for taking the time to report and explain.


Now you've explained it, it makes total sense. :-) I will raise this with my parents.

Massively appreciate all you folks great work on bug squishing - thank you.

[Mike Serfass]

I'm working on vehicle weapon fixes this weekend. I got to see some of this behavior in my game tonight. I recorded and logged it which will help me track it down. I'll get it figured out before next release.
One workaround we figured out is to drop the attack die from the vehicle rather than targeting in CT then double clicking the attack die. The targeting works doing it that way.
Unfortunately, Chillhelm's 4C extension does not work with the latest round of CT updates. Nor does Fast Tests.

[MikeRPG]

I'm working on vehicle weapon fixes this weekend. I got to see some of this behavior in my game tonight. I recorded and logged it which will help me track it down. I'll get it figured out before next release.
One workaround we figured out is to drop the attack die from the vehicle rather than targeting in CT then double clicking the attack die. The targeting works doing it that way.
Unfortunately, Chillhelm's 4C extension does not work with the latest round of CT updates. Nor does Fast Tests.


Thx Mike, I'll give that a try and see how it goes. Really appreciate you working on this - thanks. I'm pretty new to SW (in case it doesn't show), one of the really big pulls to SWADE and FG was the ability to put walkers and vehicles on the table and slug it all out. This will be amazing.

[Ikael]

Vehicle CT handling significantly improved in the upcoming version which is already available in TEST channel. Vehicle combat was never meant to rocket science like this :D -- it should be as smooth as any other without gimmicks. Check out the new version in TEST

[Mike Serfass]

Currently, vehicle weapons are targeted from the vehicle, not the gunners. Player can't set targets for a vehicle, so the GM must do that.
A player [i]can[/] get around this by dragging and dropping the weapon attack die from the vehicle weapon onto a target. It will set the target for the vehicle then roll the attack.

Simply taking the target(s) from the gunner isn't as easy at it sounds. We're pondering how to do this.
I'm going to look at Chillhelm's 4C extension, which has great features. Chillhelm has already said he's happy to have any of his extension's functionality moved to the ruleset.

[amanwing]

How would you handle an open-topped vehicle in this situation? For example, the riverboat chase from Eye of Kilquato: there’s a boat with a pilot, a mounted machine gun, and 10 river pirates. I added all of them to the boat as passengers and assigned one of the pirates to the machine gun, so only the boat itself appears in the combat tracker.

Is this the best way to do it? If yes, how can the PCs target the individual NPCs on board? If not, how would you set up and run an encounter like this?

[Arsilon]

Personally I would add all the combatants (pirates/players) to the same action card as the boat. Thus the combatant could target the boat or specific passengers as appropriate. Per core rules any combatant or vehicle that can operate independently should be assigned an action card (and thus be added to the Combat Tracker). Passengers on a given vehicle should be grouped with the vehicle. Any swimmers(?) would be on their own card.

[amanwing]

Personally I would add all the combatants (pirates/players) to the same action card as the boat. Thus the combatant could target the boat or specific passengers as appropriate. Per core rules any combatant or vehicle that can operate independently should be assigned an action card (and thus be added to the Combat Tracker). Passengers on a given vehicle should be grouped with the vehicle. Any swimmers(?) would be on their own card.

Thank you! Is there a way to bulk-assign them to the boat’s card, or do I have to assign them one by one?

[Mike Serfass]

One by one.

[Arsilon]

If your pirates are all defined as an encounter and you add them to the CT that way, they should all come in on a single card and the vehicle will be a separate card. Then you can just add the vehicle card to their card instead of the other way around. If the pirates are all unique, then they will come in on separate cards, though, unfortunately.

As for players (or any NPCs you add manually) you'll need to do them one by one.

If this is a pre-set encounter, you might could play with Saved Battles? I've not played with this too much so can't confirm from my own experience for this however.

[amanwing]

If your pirates are all defined as an encounter and you add them to the CT that way, they should all come in on a single card and the vehicle will be a separate card. Then you can just add the vehicle card to their card instead of the other way around. If the pirates are all unique, then they will come in on separate cards, though, unfortunately.

As for players (or any NPCs you add manually) you'll need to do them one by one.

If this is a pre-set encounter, you might could play with Saved Battles? I've not played with this too much so can't confirm from my own experience for this however.

This works, thanks! One more thing I noticed: it correctly calculates the range between the two boats during a chase, but not for the passengers on board. Is there any way to make that work as well?

[Mike Serfass]

This is an adjustment to vehicle combat which is on my short todo list. It will be a few weeks before I can get to it because I'm in the midst of a large extension.

Currently, tokens must be on the map for range to calculate.
Since passenger tokens aren't usually on a map during vehicle combat and chases, you'll have to add them next to their vehicles as a work-around.