The FGII Community.

[docplutonium]

OK, before I go any further, I want to make sure everyone has their heads on straight. I am not typing this to be mean, or vindictive, or cruel. I am just laying it out as I see it. If I say something and it does not apply to you, then it does not apply to you and just move on. Everything I am going to post here is ONLY my opinion. (And you know what they say about those…)

OK, I was thinking about the screenshot contest that was recently held and to which had to be cancelled because of lack of sufficient entries. Sure, the FGII people are going to make it right and award prizes anyways, and that’s cool, but it does not answer the underlying problem…How are we all contributing to the FGII community ?

You see, “If you build it, they will come” is not just a cliché, it’s a fact. People attach themselves to things that they believe gives them a sense of community. For example, people gathering around a web site all sharing a passion that they have, baseball, rally cars, dungeons and dragons, or ANYTHING, it’s all the same. People go where they are wanted; ultimately, they stay where they are well treated.

So this is not to say there is anything wrong with the FGII community. You cannot base any judgment against that which really does not appear to exist. There would have to be a community in the first place before you could describe it as “successful” or “failed”

What do I see when I visit the FGII Forums? Well, once I get my parka and mittens on to deflect the chill of the place, not a lot. I see some discussion of rule sets but everything frozen out as to how you would get a copy… I see some discussion about groups gathering to play, but nothing really long term… It’s dry and empty. There isn’t a lot of support for questions, often answers are more bothersome then the questions that get asked. I know I had to learn the hard way about FGII, and it was really a detriment to me trying to get answers on modules vs. campaigns vs. shared vs. client vs. host blah blah blah. Now, I did get my answers, but it was no easy thing, and it was only the need not to let down my group that drove me deeper and deeper into the forums to find the answers I was looking for.

So, number 1, as far as technical support and theological vision of how the software is to operate I don’t see any. A simple “This is FGII and this is how we like to run it…” post would be great. Start a campaign, create your dungeon, export to a module, and then open that in your group campaign and bingo! Bob’s your uncle. There should be more step by step guides for the newbie to follow in OBVIOUS places to find them.

Well, so because new comers to the software really can’t find some of the more obvious answers and because more people are afraid to look stupid asking, it really isn’t as inviting place to be where everyone can come and join and participate.

So Point #1. Participation fosters Community. Nothing will happen without everyone feeling good about joining in

So, next point. Copyright. YES! I get it! Stealing modules and posting them without publisher consent is BAD. I understand that and fully endorse it. But, with that out of the way, there is still a lot that can be done with FGII that does not violate these laws. And I am not talking about hanging out in the grey areas; I am talking about creation and posting of content.

For example, my group meets every Monday for the last 8 months, (Basically since after GenCon where I picked up FGII and then strong armed all my guild mates from around North America to follow suit) I am the GM and to date we have gone through the following adventures

Transmuters Last Touch (Goodman Games)
The Dragon Fiend Pact (Goodman Games)
The Quick and the Dead (Farland Adventure - Shared WIth FGII Community)
The Iron Giant (Wicked Adventures\Goodman Games)
The Temple of Mysteries (Digital Adventures)
The Legend of the Silver Skeleton (WOTC Download)
The Secret of Smuggler’s Cove (Goodman Games)

Still to come…
The Sunless Garden (Goodman Games)
The Old Rock Tower (Unicorn Rampant - Shared WIth FGII Community)

Of all of these where I could I released adventures to share with the community. AFTER I got permission from the creators of the content. I posted these, here on the forums, and I see that they had views and from my web site stats I know they were downloaded, and what feedback was there??? None. What support did I receive from the FGII people? None. In time the Quick and the Dead slipped off the front page of the forums and into oblivion and in time I am sure my latest adventure (The Old Rock Tower) will also.

So the question is WHY? Why did I not receive the support of the FGII Community? I am not expecting parades to be held in my honor, but some recognition from the FGII people would have been nice…say something that would of helped both of us…like maybe the make the adventures a sticky in the forums so NEW PEOPLE to the Software could see it and see content being generated for it. Put it in plain sight so that others will see content being generated AND post their own! OK, so you don’t have any non copyrighted adventures you can post…how about your campaign world that you have your adventures set in exported to a module for others to download and maybe adopt? What about a rogue’s gallery module of bad guys and interesting NPC’s you’ve developed? How about some maps you’ve created? Content is KING! Right now this community is Paupers. Why did nobody say ANYHTHING about my content? Well, mostly I feel that there was not enough of a community feel from the users to actually post a “thanks” or “nice”. And that is a real SHAME! Nothing is going to happen if we don’t support each other people! Don’t be just a consumer, give something back.

And this includes the FGII people too, if you want to create a community of people who both love your product and love to share with each other, then you are going to have to step up to and do more then just create a forum of empty threads and below room temperature atmosphere, you’re going to have to lead the charge and lead by example. Don’t have time for adventures? Then post mini encounters, post Story hooks and ideas just do something other then what you are doing now. Start sharing your ideas! Others will follow, I promise you they will.

So Point #2, Communities thrive where sharing is the accepted norm.

If you need an example of a successful community, check out the Dunjinni forums some time, it’s packed with posts and shares from users all giving away their art for anyone to use. Here! Look what I did! Use it please! Also, there are tons of Q&A posts written in plain English. Not “technojargon” leaving the person asking the question more confused then when he started. If FGII community could approach this level of performance, then I think this place would be a very different place to visit.

So. Please. Do not read this post and hate me, as I stated before this is only my opinion. But it’s one I felt I had to share with you all. If this product is going to succeed it will be because of the community that supports it and the developers that encourage it. I can see some tough times for FGII after D&D 4.0 is released, the cancellation of the OGL is going to take away one of it’s MAJOR selling points, so you had better have a strong and vibrant community here to make up for it.

To the Developers, I salute you. Your FGII software is awesome! But AWESOME! Is just not enough. You must continue to show your community that they matter by leading the way. Fostering creativity with them as well as have some fun with them. I am sure the dungeons you want to create is not called the “Forums”

To the Users of FGII. This product will succeed or fail on your and your actions alone. If you want to keep FGII alive and vibrant, then be prepared to share. Be prepared to foster inclusiveness as well as put yourself out there. The DEV’s created a contest. Did you enter? Why Not?? I am sure there’s more then 3 of you out there playing FGII. Let’s stop consuming and give something back. Let’s create a community of people who love to game, love to share and love to belong.

Well, that’s my pie-in-the-sky post. I am willing to put myself out there and contribute. I have been doing so for a while now. How about you everyone? Going to help me?

Let me know!

Thanks
Doc

[joshuha]

While the post is too long for me to quote I will give some quick thoughts and respond fully later.


I don't get the "cold" vibe from the forums here. In fact, most of the comments and PMs I receive are that this community is one of the nicest and most civil ones out there for virtual tabletops.
The screenshot contest was for iCon hosted by fouruglymonsters.com. The screenshot contest was for the official "weekend" dates announced by iCon but many users had run games before that weekend so did not capture screenshots. I think the next iCon will have better planning and support .
Documentation is a big push being worked on in the backend. Looking at compiling the Library User Guide section into a PDF to be included near the download link.
I think our guild house is pretty active but in the online arena where a product is global, matching times and gamers will always be difficult. Also, I am betting most users are like me who game a lot with friends/established online contacts. I have been running Fantasy Grounds campaigns for a couple years but its with mostly the same group of gamers with new ones only every now and then.
The calendar does need improvement and we are looking at other alternatives for game matching as well to help that aspect.
As far as sharing content and people creating adventures and what not we are also looking at ways to make that easier. However, I also think a lot of GMs may be like me and tend to do everything on the fly. I basically only put combat stats for the tracker in the system and just run everything else on the fly, much like I do in real life.


You do bring up some good points and some I haven't quite addressed yet and will see if I can do so later today.

[Andugus]

I know that I have made a commitment of my time and resources to partner with another to create a company that will be creating adventure content for FG2. Our first release should be within the month.

I see the value of this software. 4th edition will not have any impact on the plans I have for adventure crafting, as White Haired Man separate's game mechanics from the adventure. This allows for the adventure to be towards any given system. We provide a d20 OGL environment as an example that is ready to play. If that OGL changes we will adapt, end of story.

The things I want seem to depend on numbers that are active here at FG Forums.
1. I want instant game groups for when I want to play test something.
2. I would like to be able to form a group (FG forums work fine for this but this can take weeks/months to get a group up and running)
3. I would like more FG2 Coded adventures from major game companies (this is an area I feel only FG2 team can pull off. How can more sales of adventures hurt existing companies?)
4. I would like a ruleset for every game out there (DA is doing a great job of this so far)
5. I would like clear instructions on how to create content such as modules, images for portraits, tokens, maps (size/format that are known to work)

Most of this stuff can be found if you take the time to look for it or do it yourself. But clear pictorial way of showing how to do some of these things should be a top priority. Content is key for any product to grow. We need to find a way to make using this software easier for the common man; not just computer geeks.

[Moon Wizard]

Perhaps a wiki-style area of the Fantasy Grounds web site would be useful. It could either be community-driven, or managed by SmiteWorks. I'm thinking that the most useful would be a repository of links with a short description (i.e. companies making FG products, custom rulesets, image sites, etc.)

I know that the custom ruleset I have created for v3.5 D&D quickly gets run down the forum list, and people don't notice it's there unless others in the community reference it again in a different thread.

Just some thoughts...
JPG

[Foen]

For my two cents, I'm with Joshuha. Maybe it does appeal more to coders, but as I fall (self-confessed) into that category it's hard to know really.

I *am*, however, keen to publish some stuff, but don't see how to do that on the forums, other than hosting content in perpetuity on some remote server and putting a link (which becomes buried) on the forums. I don't really think that counts as publishing.

Finally, I think the folks here (devs, regulars and recent joiners) are all passionate about this product and its possibilities. Far from the icy picture painted.

But then, that's just my view.

Take cheer,

Stuart

[Griogre]

Referring to the OP - Some good points and some stuff I don't agree with. First on documentation and "How to" stuff. Absolutely, it could be done better. The made a pretty good stab at it with the online reference but that is hardly complete.

Next I am with Joshuha, when it comes to adventures. I've been using FG for two years now. When I first got it - I input a complete WotC adventure to learn how to do it. But now, unless for some reason I think I am going to reuse an adventure, I only put in maps and as much of the personalities for an adventure as I need. As I suspect I am going to switch to 4th ed - I put in the absolute minimum these days as I know I'm never going to reuse it.

I feel one of the great strengths of FG is you don't really need much data input aside from the maps and the parts of the personalities need for the combat tracker. This does mean though there is not much to pass around as the maps are usually copywrited as are the unique personalities - which means the things I could pass around are - the SRD creatures which everyone has anyway. Now your experience may be different if you don't use voice - that does put a premium on pre-input text unless you are a godlike typist.

You comment on NPCs is a good one. I agree so much I posted a few here (https://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/showthread.php?t=487&page=2) starting last May. However my experience is that if you really want a bunch of high level NPCs then just spend the 10 bucks and get NPCDesigner (https://www.rpgattitude.com/Default.asp)and export the XML.

My way of telling if a community is vibrant is just looking at the number of posts that happens each day and are they by different people. The fact that posts do roll off the front page is a *good* problem because it means people are actually posting.

On the game calendar here - it's a mess. However, I have to say even if they fixed it I'm not sure I would use it. Because the site and alias server are on the same machine - if the site is down the alias is server is also down. Thus if you were to use the game calendar as the exclusive way of contacting players - then you have no way of telling them what IP address to connect to at game time if the site was also down.

The guild hall is not perfect - but there are a lot of posts there - just look how fast the posts roll off the front page. From watching the guild hall for a few years I can tell you things appear to go in cycles where there are more GM’s looking for players than players and more players looking games than GM’s. However, there are *always* more players than GMs in the RGP community - its the nature of it being harder to GM than be a player. It does appear to me if you want to play a popular game and can play at a time where most people in the Americas or Western Europe can play you can usually find a game in a couple of weeks. That said, D&D is the most popular game people want to play and I believe the upcoming release of 4th Ed is a factor in the amount of new D&D games being started. I also think it has an effect on the number of other types of games being started too.

[Master]

I know what you mean about feedback. I created a generic token pack that got 15 replies (including my own). I included a link to the zip file on my private server and it was downloaded over 1000 unique times. I take that to mean it is popular or has been cross linked somewhere else. Minimal input on it though.

I think the main thing is that people are reluctant to respond for one reason or another. It doesnt mean they are not there or appreciate your work. It just means that they dont have much to say. If they didnt like it though I am sure they would tell you.

[Malovech]

I don't agree with you on the cold comment, but in regards to cataloguing user created content and building a more cohesive community your comments ring loud and clear.

[Valarian]

Personally, I've found the FGII community is both friendly and helpful. There again, I'm a coder and this may reflect my outlook on the community.

What we do seem to do is worry about the copyright issues a little more than the other VT communities do. However, I think that it's a responsible and mature attitude and think that, because of this, the FGII community is likely to stay in existence with players like WotC moving on to the scene.

I'd like to see more posting of original game material ... maps, stories etc. There doesn't seem to be a good place on the board to post them and be able to find them. Maybe there is a need for a files section of the board, that'd allow modules of original material to be loaded and searched.

Some more sticky threads in the boards would be good. For example: CyJack's Generic Modern graphics pack and Moon_Wizard's alternative D&D3e sheet. A Wiki would be good for things such as the script modifications. Alternatively, a sticky script index - updated by the moderators.

I'd also like to know for sure what the legal status of a character sheet only ruleset is. I'm not a lawyer and I'd hesitate to publish a ruleset on a website without the express permission of both SmiteWorks and the publisher of the game. Maybe I'm over-cautious. Most of my rulesets are derivatives of SmiteWorks own default d20. They're modifications, rather than from-scratch builds.

Personally, I think that's what a lot of people are afraid of. The publishers coming along with the lawyers and pursuing either SmiteWorks or the person doing the character sheet. Or, of being sued by SmiteWorks for using their code and then distributing it (on their own website).

For some resources (maps, tokens, etc.), perhaps a link page would be useful. Linking the best of breed websites that SmiteWorks recommend. These could include partners, or the websites of talented FGII community members. Profantasy do this for Campaign Cartographer, with their "Master Mappers" and "Community Websites" pages.

[scytale2]

This is certainly the most helpful and friendly community I have been privileged to be part of.

I don't understand most of your comments, so I guess they must not apply to me or they're not put clearly enough. I've not checked other posts, but often lack of response means lack of understanding.

I don't ever recall seeing a question post unanswered on these forums. Anyway, sorry to be contradictory. If you've had minimal response from these forums, then I suggest you try again.

[unerwünscht]

Be careful docplutonium, my boss was banned from these forums, because he voiced his opinion, and some people took offense to it. What will happen at this point is someone will start calling you names and sending you hate msgs.

You will defend yourself, and your posts will be edited. After this you will get a private msg asking that you not call people names on the boards. The person who called you a name will not have their post edited. Later the community rep will claim that your post was edited because of profanity, and he will then have your account banned from the forum.

After your account is banned the community rep will then go spreading hate and lies about you claiming that you did something you did not do. But since the forum is hosted in another country unless you can prove he is in America you can not sue him for Defamation, Libel or Slander.

[Master]

Wow, that wasnt even remotely close to what actually happened.

[Astinus]

I have to say that this is the most helpful community I've ever been involved with. Every question I've ever asked has been answered promptly and warmly.

But the OP raises some good points. Documentation is a sore point. A wiki would be awesome, and there's no shortage of people around here who would contribute to it.

[joshuha]

Wow, that wasnt even remotely close to what actually happened.

Agreed and will leave it at that.

[Malovech]

After your account is banned the community rep will then go spreading hate and lies about you claiming that you did something you did not do. But since the forum is hosted in another country unless you can prove he is in America you can not sue him for Defamation, Libel or Slander.

Whoa who was your boss?

[Sigurd]

Firstly I want to compliment you for elequently sharing your feelings. They're as valid as anyone elses and pay honest respect to the site. I think the site needs more honest feedback from people who respectfully put their feelings into words.


These are my two cents... Not official, just a site member.


I can understand your observations but I think you misrepresent the friendlyness of the community.

This website, in my experience, is almost run at arms length by smiteworks. It is also the official source for Fantasy Grounds. The two styles combine to make this less than the best place for player innovation.


Most of the talk here is about:

A) Endless, and unrelenting, new purchasers getting familiar with the program, its setup, and their networking problems.

- The community is very patient and I think it does this relatively well.

B) Official announcements as they apply to the program.

- This has to happen somewhere - this is a good spot.

C) Game connecting for the various time zones. This might seem to be a creative pursuit but its mostly not - schedules & terse rule outlines.

D) Patches and Help Files.

- It almost helps that there is no user created clutter\brilliance on this point.

I don't think you're wrong when you say this is not the most creative or generous place for new material but I think there is a reason for that. For one, this site is very aware of how it might reflect on the program.
I find a sort of tangible shopfront where the chief source of new ideas are on sale rather than widely given away.

I think, in the long term, this is necessary for the program because it preserves its business reputation and makes it clear that the company doesn't condone copyright shinnanigans.

An external site has much more freedom than the company site does. It would also have the freedom of starting with the creative material and moving into the program rather than the reverse.

Think of the Dunjinni forums they concern themselves mostly with art not whole adventures. People share and contribute to themes and bits and pieces without being too bogged down by the whole.

A creative website would have seperate sections for art, story, programing etc... I think the truth is that an adventure need a lot of different talents to write and present. This site is devoted to the whole package, mostly from Digital Adventures, that have gotten their ducks in a row to polish all the bits and pieces.


While I agree with you that the website could be more encouraging and responsive I don't think you can call it unfriendly. Its treated every reasonable person I've met with honour and patience. It has a focus that is necessary for the company site. Other sites, perhaps Palantere??, would make a great location for material development with an arms length distance from Smiteworks and an organization that recognises the parts of an adventure. More story, more art, and even more shared code would be wonderful but I think it requires a Fan Site.


Sigurd.

[docplutonium]

Hey All.

Looking back I could see my mistake in calling the forums "COLD". Obviously when I wrote it I meant it for something else other then to describe the users on this site.

What I mean to say is, The users who post are very helpful if you have a problem. Let there be no doubt as to my meaning here, every time I've had a question, the users have ALWAYS lent assistance.

When I used the term "cold" and "below room temperature" I had more in mind of a (more or less) under utilized space. Maybe even a spot that's an afterthought or some place maybe a little less then sparkling.

It's hard to put into words. And I am afraid that if I try harder to, I would offend someone else. Maybe unfulfilled potential ? Maybe that is the best descriptor of what I meant.

But with that being said, there have been some interesting views shared, and I think that's pretty cool. I will re-read them and see if I can comment on them tomorrow when I get some time.

Thanks to everyone who came and responded.
Doc

[Oberoten]

Most of the posts in this thread have been quite relevant. And I have to admitt that I have been thinking a bit lately about the forums and what they have and have not.

I would start with agreeing with Austinus that yes, indeed, questions asked usually do get helpful answers even when stupid and/or complex. (I know this from my own experience. ;) )

A wiki / code / user content repository would be a very good place to start no matter where it ended up. I have generally tried several starts to contribute to such sites but with little effect since they are now offline or... off-limits.

But what might be suggested is that perhaps SW could endorse or permalink a site where such knowledge/code/adventures/tokens whatever might be available and saved in a more permanent fashion while also making clear that this is fan-creations.

[Master]

I think what you are getting at is that while most questions are answered in a polite and timely fashion the answers are pretty robotic. Especially the code questions. Someone will answer a question but in the process they will bring forth exactly why you shouldnt do this or that and how this or that doesnt work properly yet. Then it gets into a conversation that is way over your head and you feel alienated in your own thread. You cant really help that though.

I wouldn't say the forum is cold but it defiantly is not real warm. When you get right down to it this is a community of geeks. Geeks are not knowns to be good at social situations. Coders especially are not great people persons! :)

[Foen]

Coders especially are not great people persons! :)

:D

Darn, you found me out!

[Valarian]

I wouldn't say the forum is cold but it defiantly is not real warm. When you get right down to it this is a community of geeks. Geeks are not knowns to be good at social situations. Coders especially are not great people persons! :)
There are a fair number of technical people on the board, and the answers may be technical, or short and to the point. Speaking personally, I try to answer the question in the best way possible and I do tend to assume a certain level of knowledge based on the text in the post. If it's obvious that someone is new and not technical, I'll try to phrase things to fit that. Not always successfully, but I'm now on the descent in to management so my communication may get better in time. :p

[Xorn]

This forum has a very, very different feel from say... EnWorld, where I spent hours a day trying to find the next 4E scoop. To me, these forums are about using the software, and to a lesser extent finding players to fill your games. But myself (and it sounds like a few others) came to this website for the first time with a full playgroup. So while I'm only posting the occasional one-shot adventures--I play every single weekend, sometimes twice.

I just have a steady game, with no openings. I have never once asked a question about using the software that wasn't answered quickly, and thoroughly, and even explained further if I was too obtuse to get my head around the answer. Everyone has always been thoughtful and considerate about the other posters feelings, and while there's not a lot of non-FG2 talk, what has taken place is good reading, to me at least.

I agree that there could be improvements made to the community's outlets, but as far as the community itself? That's where I disagree--almost everyone I've encountered on these forums was inviting, warm, and encouraging! :D

[Hamish]

Not much to contribute, just wanted to let you all know I'm very much enjoying reading this conversation, and to compliment Doc on his eloquent and elegant way of giving feedback.

Agree with:
1. More response to shared rulesets and content would encourage me to develop more
2. References, FAQ and a newbie guide on the site are not good enough
3. Calender needs a major overhaul (I know its being worked on, can't wait!)

Don't agree with:
1. Coders especially are not great people persons (I would like to consider myself a people person and a coder....:) )

Keep posting!

[unerwünscht]

After reading over my last post, I would like to add, that based on my interaction with the community, I personally have had no issues with anyone here. Tho I will admit I avoid speaking to some people here in order to obtain said goal.

[Xorn]

Don't agree with:
1. Coders especially are not great people persons (I would like to consider myself a people person and a coder....:) )

Keep posting!

"What the hell is wrong with you people!? I have people skills, dammit!" :D

[Markjan]

Hello all,

After reading your posts from France here, I would like to give you my thoughts.

First of all, let me tell you that I did not participate to the screen contest because I did not see in time there was one.
I discovered it by chance, having decided to see if there was anything new in the city hall topic... but it was too late, having been closed two days before.

I don't often go in that part of the board, as there is very few messages, most of the time concerning technical problemes with the servers.
So I think this annoucement should have been maybe more visible ?

In fact, I find that the main page of the community is not very handy.
It could be more attractive, more practical (like any other forum, presenting in index the last topics and the most recent subjects, having a flashy special annoucement Title, etc.)

Concerning the participation of the community it's difficult to give access to our DM or FG2 user work as it leads rapidly to licences problems, such as providing WOTC extension rules modifications or official modules preparation.

For instance, I have made nearly all the Monster manuals Tokens based on photos I took of my DD minis. This is quite a big work, and I would be pleased to offer it to the community but can I legally do it ?

Furthermore, I have prepared completely official modules such as "The shattered gates of Slaughtergarde" or "The red hand of doom";
I have made scans of all the maps, retouched to erase the DMs references and share them with player in FG2, made special tokens for NPCs, entered in FG2 all encounters stats, etc, etc...
Have I the right to share this huge amount of work, wich would be great for many users here ?
I don't think so...

I agree on the fact that the community could share more preparation work on home made modules, but these should be for DM eyes only. There could be a restricted area for DMs, who detain a full licence, wich would allow to share all this kind of stuff.

In fact I think that we have more DMs representing the people on this board than players, mmm ?

Anyway, this topic demonstrate that there is a clear need for some changes !