Size attributes and scale in "3D Space" (aka: 2.5D view)

[rigerco]

I've been updating a lot of my custom images to the new 2.5D mode because a couple of my players enjoy the "tabletop minis" immersion it gives them. I've run into some issues with creatures that are larger than "normal."

Process:
I create the image, strip the background, and save as webp. The images are never more than 1000 pixels along the longest side. I then add the image to the FGU metadata tool and set the edges. I put in a height in feet and an expected grid height.
I am using Savage Worlds as the ruleset.
SWADE NPC sheets have an attribute on the Combat tab called "Space". A creature that is set to Space 2 will occupy a 2x2 grid. 3 will get 3x3, and so on. When added to the map from the CT the token will automatically scale to occupy the number of squares defined by Space.

Space 1 images that I have made between 2' tall and 14' tall each appear 'correct.'

Now let's say I'm making a cave bear that is 8' tall on all 4's and is overall big enough to be a 4x4 creature.
I import the image into the XML tool and set the edges and put height of 8 and grid height of 1.
The SWADE NPC sheet gives the creature a Space of 2.
When I add the bear to the map it is now about 16' tall.
If I remove it and set the SWADE space to 1 it is then about 8' tall when added back to the map.

I have fiddled with changing the size of the image down, changing the XML height to 4', changing the grid height to 2, even deleted the XML file... none of these seem to have an impact on the size because the image seems to be getting scaled up to fill the 4 squares.

I then tried using the Smiteworks Black Bear webp image, which seems to be very similar to the one I have, with the same results.

However, when I add the SWADE Pathfinder Bestiary version of a Dire Bear to my map (another bear that has Space 2 on the NPC sheet) I am seeing an image about the size that I would expect based on how I was processing stuff and a token icon showing it filling 4 squares. I asked the developer what he had in his XML and he said he just dropped the images extracted from the source book into the NPC record as a webp. So that kind of shot my theory that the SWADE Space trait was automatically upsizing the image.

Any idea on what is going on here? Am I missing a step somewhere?

[Zacchaeus]

I don't have much experience in SWADE. Any creature that is medium or smaller takes up 1 square so set the expected grid height to 1; if it's large set it to 2 (that is 2x2 squares) and anything bigger set it to 3 (that is 3x3 squares). So sounds like your bear should be set to 2 with a height of 8'. Alternatively it may be better to give it a width rather than a height.

Also have you tried just letting FG work it out - without creating an xml file that is.

[rigerco]

I tried using width a few times to no avail, same with doing no XML file.
It act like the Space setting in SWADE is overriding or conflicting with the expected height XML value and upscaling... except for what happens when I load the SWPF dire bear... which works correctly.

Do you know if the image XML is writing something to the db.xml (or other location) that might not be getting updated as I'm making changes? I'm doing all this image stuff in my personal "bestiary" campaign that is only used for NPCs across all my active campaigns.

[ddavison]

I forwarded this to John and Carl to look at. I suspect it might be something in Savage Worlds that is overriding it. Can you test the same image in a D&D 5E campaign and see if the sizes match your expectations there?

[rigerco]

I haven't played D&D in 20 years, but I can try to fumble my way through it

[rigerco]

60958
Attached is an experiment in the 5e test campaign module.
The left black bear is the default bear as is.
The right bear is a copy of the 1st with the size field changed to Large.
Any XML y'all have with your images is left as is.

The smallest brown bear is my bear image attached to another copy of the 5e bear, size at Medium. XML set to 8 & 1. Looks about right for a burly 1 square critter.

Then going across the back row are more copies where I set the Size on the NPC sheet to Large, then changed XML to 8 & 2, then stripped XML.

To me it appears that even in 5e the system is upscaling the image to fill the space base on the data in the Size field. It's functioning the same as the Space field in SWADE and overriding the relative size established in the XML.

[pindercarl]

60958
Attached is an experiment in the 5e test campaign module.
The left black bear is the default bear as is.
The right bear is a copy of the 1st with the size field changed to Large.
Any XML y'all have with your images is left as is.

The smallest brown bear is my bear image attached to another copy of the 5e bear, size at Medium. XML set to 8 & 1. Looks about right for a burly 1 square critter.

Then going across the back row are more copies where I set the Size on the NPC sheet to Large, then changed XML to 8 & 2, then stripped XML.

To me it appears that even in 5e the system is upscaling the image to fill the space base on the data in the Size field. It's functioning the same as the Space field in SWADE and overriding the relative size established in the XML.

Can you attach the XML for the token and provide the pixel dimensions of the image you are using? (Attaching the image too would be great, but not necessary). Thanks.

[rigerco]

Attached is the xml. This version of the image is 500 x 450. I have also tried it at 1000 x 900. I've also tried using width instead of height as the setting in XML.

[pindercarl]

Attached is the xml. This version of the image is 500 x 450. I have also tried it at 1000 x 900. I've also tried using width instead of height as the setting in XML.

I'm not seeing any issues with the metadata in SWADE. In the attached image, I've used your XML file with the expected grid size changed to 2. The bear on the left (with its size set to 2) draws as expected. The bear on the right (with its size set to 1) draws at half the size.

It may help if I explain what the values are doing. The XML file specifies a top measurement region of 2 and a bottom of 499. The result is a pixel height of 497. The height is set to 8. This means that 497 pixels maps to 8' on the map. The measurement assumes 5' per grid, so the token measured area of the token should draw 1.333 grids tall. The token image is 500 pixels tall, so it will draw slightly larger at around 1.3 grids tall. The expected grid size is used to derive a rendering multiplier. If the expected size is 2 and the size specified in the Combat Tracker is 1, then the token will draw half as large. Conversely, if the expected grid size is 1 and the size in Combat Tracker is 2, then the token will draw twice as large.

60967

[rigerco]

So let's say I have a token of a buffalo that is 1000px by 750px.
It is "large" and supposed to take up 4 spaces and is about 8' tall on all fours.
In 5e it would have Size "Large" on the CT and in SWADE it would be set to Space "2".
What would I put in the xml height and expected grid height fields so that when placed next to a human token it was appears to be a bit taller than the human (size medium/space 1) while still occupying four squares? Should I flip the dimensions of the source image and make it 750x1000 and use the width value instead? It seems like that will cause the same issue.

[Laerun]

So let's say I have a token of a buffalo that is 1000px by 750px.
It is "large" and supposed to take up 4 spaces and is about 8' tall on all fours.
In 5e it would have Size "Large" on the CT and in SWADE it would be set to Space "2".
What would I put in the xml height and expected grid height fields so that when placed next to a human token it was appears to be a bit taller than the human (size medium/space 1) while still occupying four squares? Should I flip the dimensions of the source image and make it 750x1000 and use the width value instead? It seems like that will cause the same issue.

Have you watched this video already?
https://youtu.be/7Y_BqXN1r6Q?si=5pr1SADpzzvCu1w_

[rigerco]

Yes, unfortunately it doesn't cover changing the size value in the CT to cover more than one square and appears to contradict information provided in this thread as it states height per square is 10' and the answer in this thread says 5'.

What I'd like is another video that shows full creation from image size, to the xml, through adding to the npc record and the interaction with the CT size so that we can understand how to create properly scaled creatures at the various CT sizes. I assume that they worked through these issues when updating the 5e MM, give us the deets! I love being able to make variations of scale between creatures, some 3', some 5', some 7, and so on, I'm frustrated trying to make em large.

[Moon Wizard]

The token scaling settings only apply to scaling the token to a fixed space and how much "flair" is on the sides/bottom/top; and has nothing to do with the Space property in the combat tracker or how many squares it takes on the map.

The Space property in the combat tracker specifies how many "squares" that a creature takes when added to the map; and the mapping of the creatures stats to a Space value is controlled by each ruleset's coding. I'm not an expert with the SW ruleset; but it appears that the sizes in Savage Worlds ruleset are controled by a NPC having an Ability that specifies it's size. (Large, Huge, Gargantuan) (See Mech in the Savage Worlds Adventure Edition - GM module)

Regards,
JPG

[ddavison]

Forget about expected grid size affecting the height and just set it to how many squares the token takes up in top down view. It will take the same # of spaces in 3D view. In the video where I say 10’, that was because in D&D, a large creature takes up a 2x2 grid space and the expected grid size would be 2. On the floor of the map, that would indicate 10’ x 10’. Our golem was a lot taller than this so we put 20 for the height.yes, this mean it extends beyond the grid spaces in the vertical direction.

Just set that and then set the measurement height from the head to the toes of your creature. If you want a bear standing in his back legs to look 8’ tall, enter 8 for the height. If you want a human to be 5’6”, then set it to 5.5.

The expected grid size now come into play so that if a creature normally fills a 1x1 space and has a grid size if 1, if you edit the NPC and make it large, FG will now draw the NPC twice as big. It’s like it was magically enlarged.

[rigerco]

I was honestly going to give up on this because I don't think what I was trying to do was coming across and since it isn't an issue right now-cept for one encounter, I figured screw it. However I couldn't let go of an idea that something was being retained about the image somewhere like db.xml that was influencing things (ie: not reflecting any changes). So I made a brand new image. New image file name. Cleared out the old image and it's xml file. New image is 1000x1000. Put it in the tool and set it at 4 and 2. Then added it to my Space 2 bear. (I was wanting to see if the 'scaling' would make it look 8.)

This gave me a four square bear that was just shorter than a 6' creature next to it.
I removed the bear from the CT/map and removed images from the npc record. I then put the image in the XML tool again and made it 8 and 2. Refreshed assets and added the image back to the npc record, put it in the CT and added it to the map. No change in size!
So I cleared the NPC out again, deleted the image XML and renamed the image itself to Bear2.webp and put it in the tool and set it at 8 and 2. Then refreshed assets and put it onto my bear npc record again. Whadya know... it worked! See attached.

I played around with a few other things and each time I made an adjustment to the XML nothing would happen unless I first renamed the image and then used the tool again. So I'm happy because I have a bear that is bigger than a human, but not insanely so, but still reflects as a four square token.

[ddavison]

So the ruleset is deciding that a bear is a 2x2 creature based on the NPC description. This isn't controlled by the XML metadata file. 8 for the height and 2 for the expected grid size is correct.

It does seem like FG is remembering the old values, though, so that makes it a little harder to try out different options. pindercarl is in the thread already, so he might be able to look into that to see if this can be cleared and reset somehow to make it easier to make dynamic changes without having to rename the image name completely.

[pindercarl]

So the ruleset is deciding that a bear is a 2x2 creature based on the NPC description. This isn't controlled by the XML metadata file. 8 for the height and 2 for the expected grid size is correct.

It does seem like FG is remembering the old values, though, so that makes it a little harder to try out different options. pindercarl is in the thread already, so he might be able to look into that to see if this can be cleared and reset somehow to make it easier to make dynamic changes without having to rename the image name completely.

The XML for the token metadata is parsed when the token is added to the image from the combat tracker. If a token is deleted, the XML modified, and the token is added again from the combat tracker, the updated XML is used. I have verified in SWADE.