New Low Prices on Licenses

[ddavison]

With the success of the license sale for the 20th Anniversary, we have decided to experiment a bit and go with a permanent price drop on licenses. They are now $20 for Standard and $50 for Ultimate. Upgrades from Standard to Ultimate are $30.


We believe Fantasy Grounds has always worked to bring great value for the price; however, we can't deny that we were often referred to as the "powerful but expensive option" when comparing VTTs. We hope that this will directly combat that narrative and allow us to reach more users. We think that the power of the automation and campaign tracking features of Fantasy Grounds pairs well with no monthly or annual fees with our 1-time licenses to make Fantasy Grounds the best option in the market for many gamers. In the meantime, we will continue to work on enhancing the capabilities and experience for our existing users.

Thanks for all your support up to this point and we hope you will stick with us for another 20 years of evolution.

-Doug

[Zacchaeus]

Excellent stuff.

[Jiminimonka]

Good call.

[Ludd_G]

This is an excellent idea! Two thumbs up!

[Egheal]

Awesome move!

[Saramund]

I'm personally trying to get onboard some friends as GM for one of the many ruleset available, and your move I'm sure is going to help.

[jasonthelamb]

Love this! My biggest pain point with tabletop RPGs is the burden of cost on the DM, glad to see it's being reduced, hope to see some new faces around!

[Bonkon]

Good Day DDavison :)
Great call, here is looking forward to many more people joining the ranks! :)

[HywelPhillips]

A brave and bold choice, but I think the right one. Especially given the pricing of competitor base products.

I'm guessing the bulk of the income comes from the DLC in any case, and you can't sell people rulesets and adventures and tokens and maps here if they're put off by the high initial cost of the software.

Look forward to 20 more years and more!

Cheers, Hywel

[Nick Frost]

I think this was an excellent call!

[LordEntrails]

Agreed. Good idea. I've already have a few online conversations with folks that were going to buy Foundry because of the price difference. Now that their is no price difference, FG is back in consideration for them.

[Trenloe]

Nice one!

[Valyar]

Fantastic news, I will now have better options to convince people to try FG, something that gets harder and harder as people want to use their browsers on tablets or potato tablets/computers.

[The Hermit King]

made me get off the fense post and buy on the spot

[graziano.girelli]

While the decision to lower the price of the (ultimate) licence is undoubtedly very good news, I cannot be happy at all, since when I bought the ultimate licence a few years ago I paid 145 euros (3 times as much as today!).
In my group there are 3 masters, we bought 3 ultimate licences and now we are biting our fingers thinking about the amount we spent, which could have been invested in buying modules and adventures instead of just the licence.
Great news for the newcomers, but a poor choice for those who invested much more money in FG at the time. It would be fair to allow a free choice purchase as a ‘bonus’ for those who paid much more money years ago.

[Jiminimonka]

While the decision to lower the price of the (ultimate) licence is undoubtedly very good news, I cannot be happy at all, since when I bought the ultimate licence a few years ago I paid 145 euros (3 times as much as today!).
In my group there are 3 masters, we bought 3 ultimate licences and now we are biting our fingers thinking about the amount we spent, which could have been invested in buying modules and adventures instead of just the licence.
Great news for the newcomers, but a poor choice for those who invested much more money in FG at the time. It would be fair to allow a free choice purchase as a ‘bonus’ for those who paid much more money years ago.

I have bought about 8 FG licences at the higher price (some Ultimate and some standard) and given them to friends and other people, and I didn't for 1 second think that the lower price is a poor choice.

The more people that own FG the better for everyone.

[graziano.girelli]

I have bought about 8 FG licences at the higher price (some Ultimate and some standard) and given them to friends and other people, and I didn't for 1 second think that the lower price is a poor choice.

The more people that own FG the better for everyone.

If you think so, that's fine. Everyone is free to do what they like with their own money.
Personally, I regret not having been able to take more modules for AD&D (I only use this system and MoreCore) because of the cost, not inconsiderable at the time, of the ultimate licence. That's all.

[Jiminimonka]

If you think so, that's fine. Everyone is free to do what they like with their own money.
Personally, I regret not having been able to take more modules for AD&D (I only use this system and MoreCore) because of the cost, not inconsiderable at the time, of the ultimate licence. That's all.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. Unless you can time travel.

Would you have been happier if the price went up?

I am not going to respond further to this, so feel free not to respond to my rhetorical question.

[LordEntrails]

This is not an uncommon feeling when product prices change significantly. It's what happens when competition drives prices down. Folks who bought Tesla's a year ago feel the same way about the new lower car prices.

I think of it this way, I have gotten years of use out of FG, that's worth the price difference for the price change since then. What would I have been doing for all these years if I had not invested in FG?

Most everything we purchase decreases in value and cost over time. And either through inflation or price decreases, the real cost of most luxury items decrease over time (except real estate). The car I bought 3 years ago is cheaper to buy now. The couch I bought 2 years ago are cheaper now. The tools in my garage are cheaper to replace with more powerful ones today.

But I don't feel I should be given a free chair today. Or DeWalt should compensate me for my less powerful impact that I paid more for than today's model. There is a price we pay for any product when either it is new or the market continues to mature and various good become closer to commodities. I'm thankful I have had years of great enjoyment from FG and that I see this price drop as a sign of the market being more competitive and FG adapting to maintain or even increase it's role in the market. It's a good indicator that my investment will still be useful in the years to come.

[1ePFRPGDM]

As someone who recently bought FG for my group, I think this is a great idea. The cost initially made us hesitant, but after trying it for a few months, it is clear that it is much better than Roll20. Look forward to buying more modules!

[graziano.girelli]

Sorry, but that makes no sense. Unless you can time travel.

Would you have been happier if the price went up?

I am not going to respond further to this, so feel free not to respond to my rhetorical question.

If there is something that really bothers me, it is when someone makes stupid assumptions and does not read what I have written.
Please READ how I started the sentence, and THEN re-read your statements.
The text is easy and immediately understandable, as LordEntrails demonstrated in the post immediately following yours.
I only pointed out how drastically the price of the ultimate licence has fallen: it's a 66% drop in value over a few years. Allow me to say that I find this a bit annoying ALWAYS Bearing in mind that the money saved on the licence I would have ALWAYS spent on expansions and modules for AD&D.
As far as I am concerned, the topic is closed. It was just an observation.
I apologise in advance if my tone comes across as harsh, but I really can't stand it when people make blatantly silly assumptions like ‘being happy about a price increase’.

[Trenloe]

I cannot be happy at all, since when I bought the ultimate licence a few years ago I paid 145 euros (3 times as much as today!).
I would understand being unhappy if you paid 145 Euros only a few months ago, not a few years ago. Your account was created 6 years ago, so I'm guessing (but could be wrong) that you've had maybe 4-6 years use out of your FG license before the recent price drop?

The price drop is due to the current VTT landscape - to keep FG competitive in the marketplace so that it can operate for many years to come, which will allow you to continue to use your ultimate license years into the future.

You're unhappy, fair enough you're entitled to your own feelings. I just struggle to understand being unhappy, and publicly posting that unhappiness, about the cost difference when you purchased over a few years ago.

[deer_buster]

I would understand being unhappy if you paid 145 Euros only a few months ago, not a few years ago. Your account was created 6 years ago, so I'm guessing (but could be wrong) that you've had maybe 4-6 years use out of your FG license before the recent price drop?

The price drop is due to the current VTT landscape - to keep FG competitive in the marketplace so that it can operate for many years to come, which will allow you to continue to use your ultimate license years into the future.

You're unhappy, fair enough you're entitled to your own feelings. I just struggle to understand being unhappy, and publicly posting that unhappiness, about the cost difference when you purchased over a few years ago.

Their point is valid, whether you agree with it or not. 4-6 years from now the people that buy today will have the same amount of usage that those of us that bought 4-6 years ago do today, but will have paid significantly less than us. The cost to produce FGU didn't go down, but yet those that bought into it before this SIGNIFICANT price drop bore the brunt of it.

Me personally, I feel it was money well spent, but I understand that it can be felt like being "screwed in the drive-thru".

Empathy is a wonderful thing

[Jiminimonka]

Their point is valid, whether you agree with it or not. 4-6 years from now the people that buy today will have the same amount of usage that those of us that bought 4-6 years ago do today, but will have paid significantly less than us. The cost to produce FGU didn't go down, but yet those that bought into it before this SIGNIFICANT price drop bore the brunt of it.

Me personally, I feel it was money well spent, but I understand that it can be felt like being "screwed in the drive-thru".

Empathy is a wonderful thing

I am not sure its got anything to do with empathy.

Lord Entrails summed it up well. Competition drives prices down and us that bought it at the higher price contributed to FG getting to its 20th anniversary.

We invested in the best VTT. I got a lot of mileage for my money so far as have my many players

[ddavison]

We absolutely understand feeling a bit disappointed if you paid a lot more for the licenses and see that they are on sale for cheaper now. We worked with some of our long term partners to provide everyone who already had a license with some freebies to help soften the blow, and we added a few smaller items from our end as well. Everyone with a license before the price drop should have these on their account for free:


Hearts and Skulls Dice Pack
Stars and Clovers Dice Pack
Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (SWADE) Ruleset
Black Scrolls - Sewer Map Pack
Pathfinder RPG - Pathfinder Flip-Mat: Docks

[deer_buster]

I am not sure its got anything to do with empathy.

Lord Entrails summed it up well. Competition drives prices down and us that bought it at the higher price contributed to FG getting to its 20th anniversary.

We invested in the best VTT. I got a lot of mileage for my money so far as have my many players

Nobody is disputing value for money proposition. Indeed, I confirmed my feeling that it was money well spent.

We're just acknowledging that some people might feel slightly bitter about having paid so much more than it now costs, without trying to make them feel bad about how they feel. That's where the empathy comes in. Acknowledge, empathize, move on.

[graziano.girelli]

We absolutely understand feeling a bit disappointed if you paid a lot more for the licenses and see that they are on sale for cheaper now. We worked with some of our long term partners to provide everyone who already had a license with some freebies to help soften the blow, and we added a few smaller items from our end as well. Everyone with a license before the price drop should have these on their account for free:


Hearts and Skulls Dice Pack
Stars and Clovers Dice Pack
Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (SWADE) Ruleset
Black Scrolls - Sewer Map Pack
Pathfinder RPG - Pathfinder Flip-Mat: Docks


I hope to clarify my thoughts definitively, since being Italian I may have written differently from what I have instead in my head.
My regret is due not to the price of the license itself paid years ago, but to the fact that with the current price I could have bought more modules to add to the ones I have and have a more complete collection, since the difference between the two prices is very wide.
That is all. I have never said or even thought that I have spent my money badly, or that I am complaining because the price has gone down instead of up, as someone wrote.
The next purchases (again for AD&D) are already planned for when I return from various business trips from the Far East (since I don't like to use my credit card outside my home network!). I have invested a fair amount, and will continue to spend on FG to get all the published material for AD&D.
I hope this is all made clear.

[snupy]

I think lowering the price was a good move, and a needed one to keep FG competitive. Hopefully that will result in more users, so more development an implemented feature.

I am not bothered by what happened despite being a fairly recent (<1 year) user who got the license at a sale - still I probably paid more than the current price.

If I really had to nitpick: announcing a sale and then keeping the sale price after the sale ends could be perceived as slightly disingenuous. In a sense the sale lowered price is the reward for deciding to buy at the right time. If the price stays low you don't get to feel smart about your purchase, and in fact you could feel slightly played. More offensive versions of this include shops which seem to always be liquidating/closing/etc, or pretend discount prices. While I do not know, I like to think that when the FG sale was announced it had not already been decided to keep the lower price at the end of it.

Nitpick #2 is that I believe all users who bought during the sale period got the freebies, so not just preexisting/long time users?

Anyway, just wanted to join in the discussion, I am not bothered nor I think I am owned something because of the lowered price.

[ddavison]

Correct. They also got the freebies, so the best possible time was to buy during the sale.

Dropping the price this much is a big gamble for us, but the pricing that we settled in is the most competitive option. We have to make it up in volume of 2X sale on Standard and 3X on sales of Ultimate. The sale let us test the water at that price point and have enough confidence to make the permanent move. A sale almost always creates more volume than a regular price and now that we are discounted, it didn’t leave us much room for further sales. There is not really a good way to satisfy everyone, but it seemed like a worse decision to bump back up to $150 for a while once we decided that $50 was going to be our new price.

[snupy]

Correct. They also got the freebies, so the best possible time was to buy during the sale.

Dropping the price this much is a big gamble for us, but the pricing that we settled in is the most competitive option. We have to make it up in volume of 2X sale on Standard and 3X on sales of Ultimate. The sale let us test the water at that price point and have enough confidence to make the permanent move. A sale almost always creates more volume than a regular price and now that we are discounted, it didn’t leave us much room for further sales. There is not really a good way to satisfy everyone, but it seemed like a worse decision to bump back up to $150 for a while once we decided that $50 was going to be our new price.

Thanks for the reply, I think it was the right decision then. Perhaps you could offer people who purchased within 30 days before the sale started a coupon for the price difference to be spent on the FG shop. It would be a nice touch which could increase product loyalty, certainly not something due or required. Within that time scale they could have refunded and repurchased anyway, but may have not noticed or thought about it (I would not be among the ones affected by this so I am not proposing the idea in the hope of getting something out of it).

[Saramund]

What I would most long for is supporting FG in the transition to a web-based solution. If this discount is they way to support this, I'm more than happy to have paid more in the past.

that's my two cents.

[Morenu]

I believe this was a wise move, as long as you have enough revenue streams from modules, forge items and other add ons.

As someone that has dipped a toe into several VTT options, I know my home is here. with several options hitting the market since covid, this was most likely a very smart move. I have dipped a toe, lurked and blatantly tried several well known as well as up and coming VTTs. WotC eventual offering also could cause issues across the landscape. There are AI creation and VTTs coming. those that want a video game feel will have those options. but for my preference of more TTrpg but with the ease of letting the computer take some of the load, FGU is hands down the best.

The good/bad thing with FGU is I am literally invested in it being successful. Other than Paizo, Everything I have purchased here is FGC/FGU only. So once invested a certain amount, a user is essentially all in. (I mean this in no negative way) Smiteworks has to make money, they are a business and people need paid to do work. We want the upgrades, addons and bug fixes.

Doing this now will hopefully lock in many more DMs and Players. the price difference from standard to ultimate may also encourage some players to try their hand at DMing. T
The gifts are a reasonable way to acknowledge those that paid full price (I personally waited for sales for my second ultimate license and many of my books, but the first ultimate was needed at the time it was bought). I have no regrets or hard feelings. If had bought it right before the sale, yes I would feel annoyed at my piss poor timing, but there is nothing underhanded here.

good luck. and I can't wait for my DM to get us back up and running

[seycyrus]

We absolutely understand feeling a bit disappointed if you paid a lot more for the licenses and see that they are on sale for cheaper now. We worked with some of our long term partners to provide everyone who already had a license with some freebies to help soften the blow, and we added a few smaller items from our end as well. Everyone with a license before the price drop should have these on their account for free:


Hearts and Skulls Dice Pack
Stars and Clovers Dice Pack
Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (SWADE) Ruleset
Black Scrolls - Sewer Map Pack
Pathfinder RPG - Pathfinder Flip-Mat: Docks


Thanks! These are great!

Btw on a side note. Even if the price had NOT dropped the value of FG has only gotten greater and greater in the past 5 years.

[BaneTBC]

Thanks for the reply, I think it was the right decision then. Perhaps you could offer people who purchased within 30 days before the sale started a coupon for the price difference to be spent on the FG shop. It would be a nice touch which could increase product loyalty, certainly not something due or required. Within that time scale they could have refunded and repurchased anyway, but may have not noticed or thought about it (I would not be among the ones affected by this so I am not proposing the idea in the hope of getting something out of it).

If someone had purchased at the higher price in the last 30 days, they can reach out to Customer Service who would help them out. SmiteWorks has a long standing policy of refunding the difference (or the entire product cost and just have you repurchase it at the lower price).

[Myrdin Potter]

If I calculate the cost per hour I got out of my older and more expensive licenses, it is about the cheapest entertainment I ever paid for ...

Happy that lower prices will mean more get to enjoy the program.

[Jiminimonka]

If I calculate the cost per hour I got out of my older and more expensive licenses, it is about the cheapest entertainment I ever paid for ...

Happy that lower prices will mean more get to enjoy the program.

300%

[JohnD]

If I calculate the cost per hour I got out of my older and more expensive licenses, it is about the cheapest entertainment I ever paid for ...

Happy that lower prices will mean more get to enjoy the program.

Oh agreed very much. Last time I checked I was around $0.17/hour for cost and I have a significant DLC library... a great value for time spent.

[Griogre]

FG has a great cost value as long as you actually use it. I remember my long time group did some rough calculations of the value we had gotten from FG Classic when we were switching over to FGU - it was *tiny* fractions of a cent.

[Gilafron]

I'm glad to see the price drop. I seem to hear more about competitors than Fantasy Grounds. Kickstarters often seem to have competitor VTT options without FG, which is a bummer.

Out of curiosity, is Smiteworks advertising the new price? Roll20 got a lot of coverage with its Discord integration. Foundry got coverage with its WotC partnership. Demiplane is getting attention with Daggerhear. I haven't seen any FG news on the YouTube channels I view.

[Iain Little]

What I would most long for is supporting FG in the transition to a web-based solution. If this discount is they way to support this, I'm more than happy to have paid more in the past.

that's my two cents.

What I would most hate is FG transitioning to a web-based solution. I bought FGU UL specifically because it lives on my computer and was a one-time purchase. I am sick and tired of subscription-based VTTs, of being unable to work on my campaign because I'm not online, and of server-based lag hampering my game night, especially with large maps. If FG became online-only, I would stop using it.

[Zacchaeus]

What I would most hate is FG transitioning to a web-based solution. I bought FGU UL specifically because it lives on my computer and was a one-time purchase. I am sick and tired of subscription-based VTTs, of being unable to work on my campaign because I'm not online, and of server-based lag hampering my game night, especially with large maps. If FG became online-only, I would stop using it.

Agreed. Some limited browser availability to be able to read modules without having FG up and running would be nice; but leave the client as it is.

[Jiminimonka]

What I would most hate is FG transitioning to a web-based solution. I bought FGU UL sapecifically because it lives on my computer and was a one-time purchase. I am sick and tired of subscription-based VTTs, of being unable to work on my campaign because I'm not online, and of server-based lag hampering my game night, especially with large maps. If FG became online-only, I would stop using it.

Awesome! I like FGU as it is now too, for the same reasons

[Saramund]

I have a license of FG and playing as a player with Roll20 and Foundry. I appreciate FG for being the best solution for automating rules but it is clear to me how cumbersome is compared to the others e.g. when in need of sharing music or getting peer-to-peer with people connected on ipad. The IT Industry is all moved to the web browser UI and cloud computing and FG has to struggle against a market more an more attuned to that.
This is a matter of fact, whether we like it or not.
If you hope FG would be here in the next 20 years, they need to understand how to make new generation of TTrpg gamers more likely to use FG instead of others. Opening to mobile and ipad to some degree is mandatory imho.
But I dare say it's probably more important getting an AI support for devs nowadays. That could increase the base and getting more people more confident in making FG their own ground.

[Mike Serfass]

Web apps come with a whole set of problems and limitations.
FGU can do some of the things it does because it's a desktop app. It would lose functionality if moved to a web app.
FGU will be able to do more as it progresses and the devs take more advantage of the underlying game engine, things that web apps can't do.

[ddavison]

We have been developing a companion reader app for mobile. We think that GMs will want additional power of running it via a desktop app, but that players may want to connect with mobile devices for limited, specific functionality. Initially it will be for reading reference manuals without loading the full program. Later, we could see it being used to manage a character as a player.

[claedawg]

We have been developing a companion reader app for mobile. We think that GMs will want additional power of running it via a desktop app, but that players may want to connect with mobile devices for limited, specific functionality. Initially it will be for reading reference manuals without loading the full program. Later, we could see it being used to manage a character as a player.

This is all I would really need it for. I would love for my players to be able to open up FG and read a refman I made for campaign specific information and to leave out of game updates.

[RosenMcStern]

The IT Industry is all moved to the web browser UI and cloud computing and FG has to struggle against a market more an more attuned to that.
This is a matter of fact, whether we like it or not.


Be cautious when considering trends in the IT industry "matter of fact". Techologies rise and fall. Not long ago it was matter of fact that all interfaces had to be optimised for Internet Explorer, as it had no competitors in the browser market. We all know how it went.



We have been developing a companion reader app for mobile. We think that GMs will want additional power of running it via a desktop app, but that players may want to connect with mobile devices for limited, specific functionality. Initially it will be for reading reference manuals without loading the full program. Later, we could see it being used to manage a character as a player.

Way to go, Doug! This would definitely add value to the application.

Better control over Syrinscape would also help, but I think this is due to limitations in Syrinscape.

And of course Discord integration...

[Saramund]

[QUOTE=RosenMcStern;717649]Be cautious when considering trends in the IT industry "matter of fact". Techologies rise and fall. Not long ago it was matter of fact that all interfaces had to be optimised for Internet Explorer, as it had no competitors in the browser market. We all know how it went.

You are definitely right, and the direction is still the same since those days: getting the UX onto the web UI.
don't think I'm a super fan of that though, but I see the opportunity.

[ValerionWolf]

This is all I would really need it for. I would love for my players to be able to open up FG and read a refman I made for campaign specific information and to leave out of game updates.

Even as a GM I would love this. Sometimes I am lazy on a Saturday morning and would like to be able to sit in bed and read an adventure module I intend to run on Sunday, without having to get in front of my PC to launch FG. Or, if I purchased a new module or rule book, to read it while I am not in front of my PC.

Obviously I can't run a game this way, but just being able to access the library is already powerful.

[Morenu]

Not a fan of switching FGU to a web only UI. That's a complete rewrite of all things FGU I would imagine (Base App, extensions and all store items except maybe maps) or more of a clunky front end that takes the LUA and makes it web UI "readable" and back again.. the Lag would be insane most likely.

My thoughts:

1) Web based reading of materials I purchased or made available from the DM (assume the DM game would need to be up and player signed in).. definitely. kinda like having a book open during TT.
2) Discord integration for things like static shared images, talking and maybe sound? I feel like all of this is already a thing (Our DM shares things like maps and such via discord so people with a tablet have more room on FGU window)
3) an API that would allow a player to join a game via any device and see their character sheet and use discord for the above items would let them join a session but just have the DM or another player control the character in FGU. clunky but doable.

and as a mobile option, I use Splashtop to control my PC from my laptop or tablet and have played that way. a little laggy, yes but very doable in a pinch.

[krking]

I'll admit, there was part of me that was always a little bummed when FG had a periodic sale after I had purchased full price back in 2020. And when I saw that it was going to $50 bucks permanently I had the same twinge of regret. But here's the thing: I want more people to play on this platform, and I really like the vibe I get from the Fantasy Ground Youtube stuff and the support on the forum. And I've enjoyed myself tremendously playing over these past four years. So I'll take that return on investment and just keep telling people to check out this software.

[deer_buster]

Are the subscription prices supposed to still charge the old prices? I would think you would get longer subscriptions if you charged an annual fee closer to the full license price, rather than 2-3 times the full license price?

[StormBeach]

Lower prices are always a good idea, just a pity that my Ultimate subscription purchased on 20th April 2024 cost me $149. A little pre-warning that the prices were dropping would have been nice.

[Jiminimonka]

That'a not really how price drops work.

[damned]

Lower prices are always a good idea, just a pity that my Ultimate subscription purchased on 20th April 2024 cost me $149. A little pre-warning that the prices were dropping would have been nice.

Hi DAC had you contacted support at the time of the price drop they would have refunded you your money on their 30 day refund policy.
Unfortunately that time has passed now but hopefully you have been making good use of the platform anywways.

[DwightLee]

As someone that paid the full $149 ( long ago ) this was a great move. It is easier now for folks that play my games that want to DM to get started. I personally insist on the full license for myself so my new players ( I prefer new players to D&D ) do not have to purchase anything to play my campaigns. Several have expressed interest in DMing, this makes it a lot easier for me to help them get started.

[rocketvaultgames]

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but, I would love to pay a subscription on top having bought FG Ultimate for $100+ if it meant more/faster development, and more options.

Managing 100+ extensions to get FG (as close as possible) to doing what I want is obnoxious but necessary.

There are so many feature requests that have been out there forever that I would love to be able to throw money at to help actually bring them to fruition.


"Official" SmiteWorks paid extensions on the Forge could be an excellent way to offset the cost of developing features.

Even better might be a Kickstarter/Backerkit model to get the money upfront to develop/improve features.



I want to turn my cash into a better VTT experience and there doesn't seem to be a great way to do that.

[LordEntrails]

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but, I would love to pay a subscription on top having bought FG Ultimate for $100+ if it meant more/faster development, and more options.
You can get a subscription license if you want; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store/#


I want to turn my cash into a better VTT experience and there doesn't seem to be a great way to do that.
It takes a lot of cash. A developer is probably in the neighborhood of $100,000 USD/year (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=a13135ffed6f96d6b2b05780a9ad598c534f289d8d1302fc bf213ae3ad1fecbfJmltdHM9MTc1NTM4ODgwMA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=4&fclid=29313ed2-2517-6851-1c58-2c70247c694f&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuemlwcmVjcnVpdGVyLmNvbS9TYWxhcm llcy9HYW1lLURldmVsb3Blci1TYWxhcnk&ntb=1). Probably more when you look at taxes, expenses and the overhead to support one. SmiteWorks also seems to be employee conservative as they don't hire and fire folks so they would probably want a 2 or 3 year commitment. If you've got that much money, I'm sure Doug and John would love to talk with you.

[rocketvaultgames]

With the current subscription option there is really no way to see what you are getting in exchange for paying extra (e.g. How can I see how many extra subscriptions I have to buy to get lighting effects to care about elevation?)

I understand that developers cost a lot.

I'm not suggesting I want to shell out 100k... but I am suggesting I'd be interested in pooling my 1-2k/year with other like-minded individuals to get specific items worked on: Not a full time developer, but contracted projects (which official paid Forge extensions or crowdfunding might enable).

I'm not saying I have all the perfect answers, and I don't mean to sound negative.

I want Fantasy Grounds to be the best VTT. Currently I feel like it just the least bad.

[LordEntrails]

With the current subscription option there is really no way to see what you are getting in exchange for paying extra (e.g. How can I see how many extra subscriptions I have to buy to get lighting effects to care about elevation?)

I understand that developers cost a lot.

I'm not suggesting I want to shell out 100k... but I am suggesting I'd be interested in pooling my 1-2k/year with other like-minded individuals to get specific items worked on: Not a full time developer, but contracted projects (which official paid Forge extensions or crowdfunding might enable).

I'm not saying I have all the perfect answers, and I don't mean to sound negative.

I want Fantasy Grounds to be the best VTT. Currently I feel like it just the least bad.
Sounds like you should reach out to some community developers. Perhaps through Discord or a dedicated thread. I suspect some of them would be willing to do extensions they are interested in with that type of support :)

And I don't mean to sound dismissive or negative either!
:)

[rocketvaultgames]

Sounds like you should reach out to some community developers. Perhaps through Discord or a dedicated thread. I suspect some of them would be willing to do extensions they are interested in with that type of support :)

And I don't mean to sound dismissive or negative either!
:)

You don't sound dismissive or negative.

I have engaged developers and now I can lock the combat tracker position and have the MOTD pop up for the GM on load... I will continue to engage them.

I guess I'm just trying to think of another complimentary/supplementary way to push things forward... and in an official capacity that isn't at the whims of a 3rd party keeping up with changes (...as I watch Trigger Me Timbers and Capital Gains languish...).

Also... some changes legitimately can only be made by SmiteWorks. As I understand it, there is plenty of code that extensions can't touch.

Where is the best place to post a thread on these forums? ....Looking to coalesce interest around specific feature requests with monetary backing (whether it's for official or 3rd party implementation)


I think we are all on the same side here with the goal of Fantasy Grounds being the best it can be.

[LordEntrails]

The Tavern or the Workshop. The Tavern will get more general visibility, but may not be seen by community developers. My perception is that many of them don't frequent the forums as much as they are busy creating things and running their games. Discord seems to be pretty popular for them. The Workshop is specifically for discussion of such things and I think is paid attention by community devs a bit more than the Tavern, so that might be the best place.

[deer_buster]

My 2 coppers.

Paying people to build things might sound like a quick fix, but in a community the size of Fantasy Grounds it just does not hold up. A small bounty might get you a one-off script or feature, but it does not cover the real cost of development. More importantly, it does not cover the cost of maintenance. Fantasy Grounds changes often, and every update can break an extension. Keeping things working takes ongoing effort, not just an initial push. Once the money is gone, so is the incentive, and that is when projects get abandoned.

Most of the best content we already enjoy came from developers who were passionate about the platform. Passion tends to outlast token payments, because it is tied to interest in the game and the community, not a single transaction. What really keeps things alive is collaboration, documentation, testing help, and showing appreciation to the people who put in the work.

If the goal is to grow development, the answer is not to throw coins at it. The answer is to build an environment where developers feel supported, where feedback is easy to get, and where the work they put in actually matters to people. That is what sustains projects long after the first release.

[RosenMcStern]

[COLOR=#111111][FONT=Verdana]Paying people to build things might sound like a quick fix, but in a community the size of Fantasy Grounds it just does not hold up. A small bounty might get you a one-off script or feature, but it does not cover the real cost of development. More importantly, it does not cover the cost of maintenance. Fantasy Grounds changes often, and every update can break an extension. Keeping things working takes ongoing effort, not just an initial push. Once the money is gone, so is the incentive, and that is when projects get abandoned.


This.

The real problem with hired third party developers is that their work has a high chance of becoming unusable in some months, so the money that you throw at them may get wasted.

A subscription that gives you access to officially supported extensions could be a solution. But it should all go through SmiteWorks, as subscribers should be guaranteed that the extensions they fund will still be there in some years' time. No third parties can give you this level of reliability, simply because they do not know whether an official update will break their extension next month, and so they cannot commit to keeping their products stable.

A Patreon campaign could replace the subscription model. Foundry, which is the VTT talk of the moment, started as a Patreon project, so we know it might work. Kickstarter wouldn't, instead, as it cannot guarantee continued support. But since SmiteWorks should be inolved, and it already has a subscription service, i wonder whether it would make sense to use Patreon.

[Griogre]

Patreon might be a good fit for Smiteworks. It could be used to fund "extras" they wouldn't be able to fit into their normal schedule. Maybe fund some tools that don't make much sense normally, but would allow community development to be much easier and robust, ie a CoreRPG ruleset maker with a set of configurable stat fields and secondary stats, which could be linked to a configurable character sheet, a configurable NPC sheet and linked into a configurable combat tracker. You could do math and dice operations on the stats for skill/attack and on success do damage calculations and apply them to the character and npc sheets.

[LordEntrails]

Patreon doesn't solve the problem of long-term investment and continued support. A Patreon would need to bring in something like $15k/month, and since supporters can drop at any time, how is this more reliable than a community dev? Because say it goes for 6 months and then drops off and can no longer support a dev? Now the core SmiteWorks team is obligated to maintain what was released, so now they have more time refactoring and supporting rather than developing. Also, what happens for the first 2 or 10 months before it grows to be able to support a developer? Do the supporters get nothing in return? All in hopes of support becoming enough to actually support development?

I love that folks are thinking outside the box. And not that hurdles can't be overcome. But just point out that this type of stuff is hard to actually make work. And it's hard to make it keep working.

[The Decepticon]

Please, just leave it as is! The main reason I picked FGU is because there is no monthly fees. Can you imagine the chaos if the developers for SmiteWorks start putting out larger updates and more frequently?

All of our extension creators and updaters would just quit as there is so much pressure on them to get things updated so it doesn't ruin player's games.

[Griogre]

Yeah, the ruleset maker is a dream unless there is a lot of money there - but I view something like a smaller Patreon amount as generating support for part time work that can bring more extensions in house where that makes sense, improvements to the character wizard and other tools. The Reference/Book feature was a good development of story entries, but it's missing story templates. Bringing story templates to the book would be a good patron project. JimSox did some amazing things with tables - but much is not really accessible even to Smiteworks from what I can tell. A Patreon project to just make a tool to clean up those table functions and make them easily accessible to users would be a good user and developer experience.

I do agree that if they don't get like 8-12 hours per month of development it's not going to change much.

[MrDDT]

You don't sound dismissive or negative.

I have engaged developers and now I can lock the combat tracker position and have the MOTD pop up for the GM on load... I will continue to engage them.

I guess I'm just trying to think of another complimentary/supplementary way to push things forward... and in an official capacity that isn't at the whims of a 3rd party keeping up with changes (...as I watch Trigger Me Timbers and Capital Gains languish...).

Also... some changes legitimately can only be made by SmiteWorks. As I understand it, there is plenty of code that extensions can't touch.

Where is the best place to post a thread on these forums? ....Looking to coalesce interest around specific feature requests with monetary backing (whether it's for official or 3rd party implementation)


I think we are all on the same side here with the goal of Fantasy Grounds being the best it can be.


I would call this like DLCs. I would love to have some official EXTs that were managed by Smiteworks to know it's going to keep working.

I would pay extra for that (already do to freelance ext makers).

One of the major questions would be how do you get them to focus on an EXT that is worth selling.

[rocketvaultgames]

I would call this like DLCs. I would love to have some official EXTs that were managed by Smiteworks to know it's going to keep working.

I would pay extra for that (already do to freelance ext makers).

One of the major questions would be how do you get them to focus on an EXT that is worth selling.


Agree completely. I'm not sure what the best answer is, but that's why I was thinking something along the lines of crowdfunding or some way to guarantee selling a minimum number so SmiteWorks doesn't lose out if not enough people buy the DLC.

Maybe something like the Art Subscription could work.

$20/month gives you access to all Official Extension DLC or you can buy them a la carte?

I know none of this is easy... Just trying to make some constructive suggestions.

[ddavison]

We do look at the popular extensions for consideration into the core program/ruleset. It is a mix of popularity, resources available, whether or not we think we can do it in a way that is applicable to multiple systems, and if it opens up additional revenue sources.

We were growing our ruleset developers, but we had to let one of them go in January. The other developer we tried to bring on board was just too slow to get projects done. We have discussed adding a Patreon to provide more funding for developers. Currently we have Superteddy dedicated 100% to ruleset level work, Josh is split between ruleset and client work, and Moon Wizard manages the dev team and does a lot of the ruleset code. As it is now, we fund development alongside other staffing with general company revenue. When top sellers decline heavily, this impacts our ability to bring on new developers. We also need to pay bonuses and raises to our existing people so they don't look elsewhere. Subscriptions are definitely nice because it makes it easier to budget for stuff. Yes, everyone could drop their subscription whenever they want... but it tends to change slowly. We only have the Art Subscription (which is a great deal BTW) and the license subscription currently. A subscription for coding improvements/enhancements might be hard to price out and get funded because it doesn't have a basic standard deliverable we could easily tie back to it. Bigger projects can easily span multiple months of development.

[sirkerry]

We do look at the popular extensions for consideration into the core program/ruleset. It is a mix of popularity, resources available, whether or not we think we can do it in a way that is applicable to multiple systems, and if it opens up additional revenue sources.

We were growing our ruleset developers, but we had to let one of them go in January. The other developer we tried to bring on board was just too slow to get projects done. We have discussed adding a Patreon to provide more funding for developers. Currently we have Superteddy dedicated 100% to ruleset level work, Josh is split between ruleset and client work, and Moon Wizard manages the dev team and does a lot of the ruleset code. As it is now, we fund development alongside other staffing with general company revenue. When top sellers decline heavily, this impacts our ability to bring on new developers. We also need to pay bonuses and raises to our existing people so they don't look elsewhere. Subscriptions are definitely nice because it makes it easier to budget for stuff. Yes, everyone could drop their subscription whenever they want... but it tends to change slowly. We only have the Art Subscription (which is a great deal BTW) and the license subscription currently. A subscription for coding improvements/enhancements might be hard to price out and get funded because it doesn't have a basic standard deliverable we could easily tie back to it. Bigger projects can easily span multiple months of development.

I'd be happy to support a Patreon for SmiteWorks to have more funding for developers.

[deer_buster]

the problems you get with paid extensions is that if you price it too high, someone else is going to make a clone. Also, only the GM has to have the extension, so it makes a more limited potential base of purchasers.

Client side extensions/skins would be a nice addition. @ddavison (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/member.php?15332-ddavison), you might have a new business model if you allowed players to purchase client skins, like you do for dice skins. Slick new window dressing for character sheets, et.al. Things that don't affect how the game mechanics work, but perhaps built in macros for things that players do manually now, etc.

[HywelPhillips]

I'd also be happy to support FGU development via Patreon. It's clearly working well for Foundry.

An obvious way to incentivise this for customers is to let them vote on priorities for new developments. The Feature Request votes are a good guide, but having superfans who are willing to support development of the program tell you which features from your list they want you to prioritise is helpful in generating buzz, supporting extra one-off payments for specific features, getting buy-in and ownership from the supporters and also gives Smiteworks a way to resolve internal disputes as to what to do first.

Dice packs have been great - you've managed to generate sales from some of my players who previously hadn't paid a penny to use FG. Anything else you can do to tempt players rather than just GMs is obviously good for revenue :)

Updating bundles is another thing you could look at - for example there's enough products now for a Deadlands: Weird West bundle with the newer SWADE-specific products as well as the existing Deadlands: Reloaded bundle. You could do a Savage Pathfinder bundle, and it would be nice to have some more token and map bundles, too.

That would be my other suggestion for subscriptions. The art subscription is great, but it is mostly map making resources rather than finished maps. Consider partnering with some map makers and token providers for a maps or maps-and-tokens subscription. Start building that up into a library to complement the art pack. I'd certainly pay to have a bunch of ready-to-use maps and tokens organised by theme with more added each week.

It could be quite low effort in that you could get the creators to sell their back catalogue this way - there's a whole bunch of Patreon creators with hard drives full of great resources! Probably you'd have to add line of sight but honestly a rough and ready job would be good enough for me.

The creators also get to benefit from having stuff put onto the store, so you can do themed bundles for people to buy direct through FG rather than having to join multiple patreons or download from DriveThru and get the maps into FG (which is how I've assembled the majority of my assets).

Cheers, Hywel

[Griogre]

I agree with HywelPhillps, in general. Dice packs have got some of my player's to spend who have not do so before, too. In addition to his ideas, an area besides dice that player's often spent money was buying a miniature for their character. I have one player who usually uses the camera mode. I suspect there is a player market for good looking PC Portrait, Token- Flat, Token - Camera sets. I don't think there is a huge market, but all you need is the Token-Camera and you can crop the others. They would be good rewards for paterons as well.

Edit: I just wanted to mention those new Hero 2 dice have been *very* well received by my players and I expect you will sell some more soon to them.

[sirkerry]

Updated bundles would be wonderful, especially one or two for Savage Pathfinder and Old-School Essentials.

A subscription for maps with LoS and tokens would be an instant sub for me, especially if the quality is close to the Pazio Flip-Maps and File-Tiles (I like both tile maps to make my own maps from and ready to go encounter maps)

[Mike Serfass]

With custom dice skins coming to Savage Worlds, a bundle of Savage Pathfinder with the dice packs it uses may be welcomed.