Map size affecting software performance

[MartianXi]

Using the 5e Ruleset, I've just finished the line of sight layout and lighting for a couple of large maps from Dungeon of the Mad Mage. It's taken a fair amount of time and I'm in the fine tuning stages but I've noticed a significant performance dip in the software. I'll be able to grab an occluder point and move it, but if I attempt to grab another right away the program doesn't respond and the CPU fans on my PC ramp up. If I pause between releasing an occulder and picking up another one for at least 3 seconds then I get grab and move the second one.

This issue is also affecting how long it takes for a door to open or how long to add a token to the map as well.

I've checked my PC's performance monitors and I don't see anything there that shows a hardware limitation causing the issue.
Cpu usage 8%, GPU 35%, Mem 35%

If I toggle line of sight off on the map then doors and such activate right away. I'm assuming it's just that there's so many occluders that it's bogging things down. I still have the delay though when trying to move occluders regardless of whether or not they are enabled.

Any suggestions or ideas?

[Moon Wizard]

What are the pixel dimensions of the maps in question?

You can find our recommendations for image sizes here:
https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/2037547009/Developer+Guide+-+Product+Guidelines#Development---Product-Image-Guidelines

Regards,
JPG

[MartianXi]

The image is JPG at 4350x5910.

[LordEntrails]

Well, make sure Lighting and LOS is turned off when you are adjusting the line elements. But that is only going to help a little. There are just too many calculations going on not to be a problem. And use as few points as possible.

I wish it were different, but this is why I don't add LOS to huge maps. For example, here's my level 1 of Undermountain (green polygon is DoMM area) and I don't think I'll ever be able to add LOS to this map and use a global mask instead and then LOS on breakout higher resolution combat maps.
60643

[MartianXi]

Well, make sure Lighting and LOS is turned off when you are adjusting the line elements. There are just too many calculations going on not to be a problem. And use as few points as possible.

I wish it were different, but this is why I don't add LOS to huge maps. For example, here's my level 1 of Undermountain (green polygon is DoMM area) and I don't think I'll ever be able to add LOS to this map and use a global mask instead and then LOS on breakout higher resolution combat maps.
60642

I actually tried that after my first post and it didn't seem to make a difference. The masks are a good idea but I don't think I've been able to reveal sections in any way other than rectangular sections..

[MartianXi]

What are the pixel dimensions of the maps in question?

You can find our recommendations for image sizes here:
https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/2037547009/Developer+Guide+-+Product+Guidelines#Development---Product-Image-Guidelines

Regards,
JPG

Do WebP images perform any better than JPG's?

[LordEntrails]

I actually tried that after my first post and it didn't seem to make a difference. The masks are a good idea but I don't think I've been able to reveal sections in any way other than rectangular sections..
Wiki says hold ALT for a freeform reveal.
https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996640166/Working+with+Images+as+the+GM#Reveal-Area

[Moon Wizard]

It's not about the storage format (i.e. WEBP vs. JPG vs. PNG); but about the actual dimensions of the image. Once images are loaded into memory, storage format is no longer relevant.

Regards,
JPG

[MartianXi]

Wiki says hold ALT for a freeform reveal.
https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996640166/Working+with+Images+as+the+GM#Reveal-Area

Amazing... thanks

[MrDDT]

Using the 5e Ruleset, I've just finished the line of sight layout and lighting for a couple of large maps from Dungeon of the Mad Mage. It's taken a fair amount of time and I'm in the fine tuning stages but I've noticed a significant performance dip in the software. I'll be able to grab an occluder point and move it, but if I attempt to grab another right away the program doesn't respond and the CPU fans on my PC ramp up. If I pause between releasing an occulder and picking up another one for at least 3 seconds then I get grab and move the second one.

This issue is also affecting how long it takes for a door to open or how long to add a token to the map as well.

I've checked my PC's performance monitors and I don't see anything there that shows a hardware limitation causing the issue.
Cpu usage 8%, GPU 35%, Mem 35%

If I toggle line of sight off on the map then doors and such activate right away. I'm assuming it's just that there's so many occluders that it's bogging things down. I still have the delay though when trying to move occluders regardless of whether or not they are enabled.

Any suggestions or ideas?




Kinda sucks because you already have it done, but what you can do is break it up into areas with LOS. Put the LOS on diff layers and break the map up into like 7 areas, so you always only have max 3 areas on at one time.


So you would break the map up into 7 pieces, with the left being 1 and the far right being 7.
When the players are in area 1, you would put 1 and 2 layer on, when they are in 2, you put 1 2 and 3 on, when they are in 3 you put layer 2, 3 and 4 on, etc.

The other option is to "encounters maps" and not just a huge dungeon crawl, so you would have the big map, which you the GM can use without LOS but not give it out to the players. Then have Encounters that you've cut out of the big map with LOS that you put the players on.

There are limits to any VTT on LOS and map sizes for smooth play, just got to work within it.

More tokens = more lag, more LOS points = more lag, and more lighting effects = more lag.

Tokens is going to be the biggest lag factor then LOS, then way down the road lighting/FX effects.


Also with LOS, remember its each point of the LOS and not the # of walls. if your straight wall has 6 LOS points in it, that's like have 3 (2 LOS) walls. Which is a lot more to figure out than just having a straight point from A to B of LOS on a wall.
This goes for rounding corners too, a circle is infinite amount of points in reality, however, you likely don't need it to be that smooth circle looking so try to use less LOS points when rounding things off like a pillar, I would use 6 points of LOS instead, making it a hexagon. If it's a super small map and you want to add a few more LOS points to make something look more circular, you will be ok. But when you get big maps LOS points really matter.

[LordEntrails]

Kinda sucks because you already have it done, but what you can do is break it up into areas with LOS. Put the LOS on diff layers and break the map up into like 7 areas, so you always only have max 3 areas on at one time.

So you would break the map up into 7 pieces, with the left being 1 and the far right being 7.
When the players are in area 1, you would put 1 and 2 layer on, when they are in 2, you put 1 2 and 3 on, when they are in 3 you put layer 2, 3 and 4 on, etc.
You've done this and it works? What happens to FoW when you turn off the LOS with the explored area? i.e. when they move into area 3 and you turn off area 1. Also, do you put things like a terrain occluder on the edges so they don't see past the edge if there is a long hallway or such?


The other option is to "encounters maps" and not just a huge dungeon crawl, so you would have the big map, which you the GM can use without LOS but not give it out to the players. Then have Encounters that you've cut out of the big map with LOS that you put the players on.
This is the approach I've taken so far. But if the other one works this might be obsolete (if it weren't for resolution).

[MrDDT]

You've done this and it works? What happens to FoW when you turn off the LOS with the explored area? i.e. when they move into area 3 and you turn off area 1. Also, do you put things like a terrain occluder on the edges so they don't see past the edge if there is a long hallway or such?


Yes, I've done this and it works. I'm not sure about FOW once they get to a certain point normally they don't care to much about FOW, but I can double check.

You have to use it within reason, if you have a long hall way going left to right thru all the "zones" then you wont want to break it up like that.

You can also go an extra step and make a DM layer with colors to know which "zone" is which, just remember you going to want 2 to 3 zones active at all times because you need the touching zones active.
You can also make an extra LOS layer that has basic cut offs so they can't see past it while the zones are active.

When I get more time I can give you my examples.

[LordEntrails]

Thanks! You can see on my Undermountain map how that could be invaluable. Right now my assumed approach was building the player map from the encounter maps one at a time. Which still might be the suggestion, because with that they will each be a layer on a big player map. Gotta think about this. Thanks again :)

[MrDDT]

Thanks! You can see on my Undermountain map how that could be invaluable. Right now my assumed approach was building the player map from the encounter maps one at a time. Which still might be the suggestion, because with that they will each be a layer on a big player map. Gotta think about this. Thanks again :)

Yep, so I double checked and FOW works fine, they can still see it (as long as you don't move them to another map of course)

Here is the example.

You can see here it's split up into a zone of LOS with just that zone on. You have to do it smartly and know about cross over areas, so you would turn any over lapping area on plus the 2 touching it.

[LordEntrails]

Thank you!

[MartianXi]

This is amazing... I shifted my players to Slitherswamp last night and had a lot of performance issues for sure. It's unfortunate that I've already done the LOS work on 5 other maps beyond so far. The winding caverns add a lot of points, which I'm sure is the cause of my issues.

I'll maybe import a new copy of the image and start over as once I reached a certain number of occluder points, the lag made editing them too tedious.

At least there's a possible work around here as I prefer the gameplay mechanics of LOS over masks.

[Zacchaeus]

This is amazing... I shifted my players to Slitherswamp last night and had a lot of performance issues for sure. It's unfortunate that I've already done the LOS work on 5 other maps beyond so far. The winding caverns add a lot of points, which I'm sure is the cause of my issues.

I'll maybe import a new copy of the image and start over as once I reached a certain number of occluder points, the lag made editing them too tedious.

At least there's a possible work around here as I prefer the gameplay mechanics of LOS over masks.

What we've learned since Line of Sight became a thing is not to put too many points on; and also the LoS does not need to be right on the edge of the walls. This is especially true with caves and similar maps. You can reduce the number of points on a particular area by double clicking on one point to select them all and then clicking on the Simplify Selected Occluders button. In the first image below we can see a wall occluder on the left with quite a few points on it; but in the second image after using the simplify occluders tool it has reduce the number of points significantly. In the third image I've deleted the occluders on the right wall and redrawn the line further back from the edge with a lot fewer points.

[MartianXi]

Any chance this issue can be solved on the software end?

Been trying to run games with these maps and it's just too much work to redo them all, divide them up into smaller sections etc... I could go without the lighting and LOS but after spending so much time setting it all up I'd like to be able to use it. The LOS and lighting effects are the main reasons we chose FGU over other VTT's.

It seems odd that a 2D top down map uses so much memory and GPU to adjust for lighting and LOS.

I was hoping as the software was updated that it could handle larger images being that there are animated tokens and such now. I'm not even using those and my players can't move themselves around the maps, they report often that they can't see anything (darkvision/lighting stops working) and I have to close and re-open the map on my end to fix it.

Over time the lag and performance seems to get worse so maybe there is something fixable with that?

[Laerun]

Any chance this issue can be solved on the software end?

Been trying to run games with these maps and it's just too much work to redo them all, divide them up into smaller sections etc... I could go without the lighting and LOS but after spending so much time setting it all up I'd like to be able to use it. The LOS and lighting effects are the main reasons we chose FGU over other VTT's.

It seems odd that a 2D top down map uses so much memory and GPU to adjust for lighting and LOS.

I was hoping as the software was updated that it could handle larger images being that there are animated tokens and such now. I'm not even using those and my players can't move themselves around the maps, they report often that they can't see anything (darkvision/lighting stops working) and I have to close and re-open the map on my end to fix it.

Over time the lag and performance seems to get worse so maybe there is something fixable with that?

The overall dimensions, amount of effects, and how complex a given map impacts performance, even with other VTTs. Also, to help a little with performance.

1.) Try not to add too many combatants, NPCs, and PCs in the combat tracker at once.

2.) Un share unused maps and images if not using or completed.

3.) Unload any uneccesary content or books if applicable.

4.) There might be one or two users with performance or networking issues that can drag performance a bit, depending.

5.) In the past, some users had hundreds of images, maps, tokens, and such in one campaign folder, which might impact performance with indexing, like beyond 4 GBs of image data. The newer modules and optimized content use webp to help with storage and data transmission speeds, yet older content might still be using older images and such. (I am one of these users...)


6.) As the platform matures, optimization has been attempted but also, personally, I believe that the minimum requirements to use VTTs has slowly crept upward.

7.) As our campaigns progress and such, so do the memory and campaign sizes. It's almost inevitable in most cases.

8.) Compute limits and available memory have limits, regardless of the system and platform. The Unity platform uses memory like other apps. Sometimes video card settings, frame rates and other computing related things add up.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?79908-High-GPU-usage-issues-with-Unity-Games-(includes-Fantasy-Grounds)#post704521

[MrDDT]

You can also use masking.