4.5 - Camera Mode Issues

[rocketvaultgames]

No extensions loaded:

WASD move very slowly on large maps, and mousewheel zooms too little per click. Moving around a high-res city map or a world map is impractical.

I see that Shift-WASDXC moves faster. Probably fast enough... can Shift-Mousewheel also scroll more per click?

Any chance of an "Invert" option for middle-mouse-click-and-drag for both horizontal and vertical (separately)?

Once "Camera" or "Token" mode are entered and then reverted to regular 2d mode, middle-click and drag is very slow and choppy... Back to 3d mode and it's smooth again. [Edit]: This lag seems to persist between sessions, driving RTX 4070 TI to 75% constantly in 2d, drops to 36% in 3d.

[Laerun]

No extensions loaded:

WASD move very slowly on large maps, and mousewheel zooms too little per click. Moving around a high-res city map or a world map is impractical.

I see that Shift-WASDXC moves faster. Probably fast enough... can Shift-Mousewheel also scroll more per click?

Any chance of an "Invert" option for middle-mouse-click-and-drag for both horizontal and vertical (separately)?

Once "Camera" or "Token" mode are entered and then reverted to regular 2d mode, middle-click and drag is very slow and choppy... Back to 3d mode and it's smooth again. [Edit]: This lag seems to persist between sessions, driving RTX 4070 TI to 75% constantly in 2d, drops to 36% in 3d.

Try a new campaign with a smaller map. See if it is a performance issue or a optimization type of thing? Did you ever figure out your previous issues from a month ago?
How big or complex is your map?

[ddavison]

Try it with grid snap turned off and see if the move is more like you expect.

JPG EDIT: This is only relevant to Token View mode.

[Moon Wizard]

For the show/choppy part, can you provide a link to the most recent zipped up version of your campaign folder that I can give to @pindercarl? (Plus, the name of the map affected.)

Thanks,
JPG

[rocketvaultgames]

Try a new campaign with a smaller map. See if it is a performance issue or a optimization type of thing? Did you ever figure out your previous issues from a month ago?
How big or complex is your map?

I can't reproduce the issue in a new campaign with a smaller map.

I have started using 75% quality WEBP for everything. There seems to be a small improvement, but large maps still take seconds to load on a fairly high-end machine.

[rocketvaultgames]

For the show/choppy part, can you provide a link to the most recent zipped up version of your campaign folder that I can give to @pindercarl? (Plus, the name of the map affected.)

Thanks,
JPG

Zipped Campaign: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qof9xrqmrx0g0bt/Forgotten%20Realms%202020.zip?dl=0

Image: "Map - Elturel in Avernus"

[rocketvaultgames]

Try it with grid snap turned off and see if the move is more like you expect.

JPG EDIT: This is only relevant to Token View mode.


No extensions loaded for any of this:

Zipped Campaign: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qof9xrqmrx...02020.zip?dl=0

Image: "Map - Faerun"

Token Mode:

Grid Snap On: WASD can't move through hexes
Grid Snap Off: Works OK

Camera Mode:

Grid Snap doesn't seem to make a difference either way.

WASDXC - Move pretty slowly (would prefer probably ~50% increase)
Shift-WASDXC - Move faster (would still prefer probably ~50% increase)
Mousewheel - zooms very slowly
Shift-Mousewheel - NO CHANGE... if Shift could affect this that would be a help to have 2 zoom speeds at the ready

Maybe there could be a movement multiplier value or slider somewhere on a global / per map basis.
Maybe it should be automatic but tied to some combination of map size (pixels) and/or grid scale

Middle-Mouse-Click-And-Drag:

I expect up/down and left/right to behave exactly opposite as they do (personal experience/taste). A toggle to flip these (individually) would be amazing. Most 3d games have an "invert y axis" or something similar.

Performance/Optimization:

On "Map - Faerun" in camera mode, there is a stutter every few seconds seen by these dips in GPU:

Camera Mode: 60023
back to 2d Mode (still there but less frequent): 60024

[Laerun]

Zipped Campaign: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qof9xrqmrx0g0bt/Forgotten%20Realms%202020.zip?dl=0

Image: "Map - Elturel in Avernus"

Look, I cannot tell you or fault you on how to run or manage your campaigns. I have done these very same things with too much and too large of assets and content.
I am the worst example of this. and can speak on this matter somewhat.

I have to say that this issue is likely still related to the issues you had before.
Your campaign folder is still rather large 5 GB+ and with tons of pictures, and more than half are still not optimized as .webp images, which mostly saves you disk space and slower transfer speeds to your players, however the sheer dimensions of some of your Elturel maps are huge in length and width terms. IF the map I am looking at now is the one you are using, it is rather large and some map images are/were originally made for printing I believe... see attached example.

60026

[Laerun]

No extensions loaded for any of this:

Zipped Campaign: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qof9xrqmrx...02020.zip?dl=0

Image: "Map - Faerun"

Token Mode:

Grid Snap On: WASD can't move through hexes
Grid Snap Off: Works OK

Camera Mode:

Grid Snap doesn't seem to make a difference either way.

WASDXC - Move pretty slowly (would prefer probably ~50% increase)
Shift-WASDXC - Move faster (would still prefer probably ~50% increase)
Mousewheel - zooms very slowly
Shift-Mousewheel - NO CHANGE... if Shift could affect this that would be a help to have 2 zoom speeds at the ready

Maybe there could be a movement multiplier value or slider somewhere on a global / per map basis.
Maybe it should be automatic but tied to some combination of map size (pixels) and/or grid scale

Middle-Mouse-Click-And-Drag:

I expect up/down and left/right to behave exactly opposite as they do (personal experience/taste). A toggle to flip these (individually) would be amazing. Most 3d games have an "invert y axis" or something similar.

Performance/Optimization:

On "Map - Faerun" in camera mode, there is a stutter every few seconds seen by these dips in GPU:

Camera Mode: 60023
back to 2d Mode (still there but less frequent): 60024

Note: The Faerun Map with Hexes is huge: 9800 x 6798 300 dpi Beyond 4K dimensions.

[pindercarl]

Zipped Campaign: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qof9xrqmrx0g0bt/Forgotten%20Realms%202020.zip?dl=0

Image: "Map - Elturel in Avernus"

You have two FX layers on top of a 100 megapixel map. Turn off the Cloud and Adjust Colors layers and you should see the performance at an acceptable level.

[rocketvaultgames]

You have two FX layers on top of a 100 megapixel map. Turn off the Cloud and Adjust Colors layers and you should see the performance at an acceptable level.

Thank you for looking at this.

Even with the FX layers, performance was at an acceptable level. It stopped when I tested out the Camera and Token Views (which were both still at an acceptable performance level), but going back to 2d, it became beyond unusable.

You are correct... turning off the FX instantly solved the performance issue... I guess the problem is: There wasn't a problem with these FX on in 4.4 or 4.5 until I went into the 3d modes and then went back to 2d.

[pindercarl]

Thank you for looking at this.

Even with the FX layers, performance was at an acceptable level. It stopped when I tested out the Camera and Token Views (which were both still at an acceptable performance level), but going back to 2d, it became beyond unusable.

You are correct... turning off the FX instantly solved the performance issue... I guess the problem is: There wasn't a problem with these FX on in 4.4 or 4.5 until I went into the 3d modes and then went back to 2d.

I'll take a look to make sure that all of the FX work for the 3D views turn off when switching back to the 2D.

[rocketvaultgames]

I'll take a look to make sure that all of the FX work for the 3D views turn off when switching back to the 2D.

Going through a few more maps... without ever going into 3D... it seems that FX (at least Clouds/Adjust Color (which I'm using a lot in Avernus)) seem to have a much larger resource hit than they did in 4.4. The smaller the map, the less it seems to matter... even with 0 Blur (which I believe is still the biggest resource hit).

[pindercarl]

Going through a few more maps... without ever going into 3D... it seems that FX (at least Clouds/Adjust Color (which I'm using a lot in Avernus)) seem to have a much larger resource hit than they did in 4.4. The smaller the map, the less it seems to matter... even with 0 Blur (which I believe is still the biggest resource hit).

The FX mask blur is now baked in so there should no longer be a run-time cost. I can take a closer look at the FX cost but a casual look at your campaign shows that most of the images are at, above, or far above the recommended dimensions.

[rocketvaultgames]

The FX mask blur is now baked in so there should no longer be a run-time cost. I can take a closer look at the FX cost but a casual look at your campaign shows that most of the images are at, above, or far above the recommended dimensions.

A fair assessment on image size. Is there any cost to large images sitting in the campaign if they are not opened?

Basically, I don't want to spend the time to resize maps that are unlikely to be used again soon, but there is always the chance that I'll need them on the fly.

If there is no cost while running FGU if they remain in the campaign but unopened, I'm inclined to leave them there, but if there is a processing cost somehow, I should devote the time to go through everything.

Thanks very much for all of your input on this.

[LordEntrails]

If you browse the assets folder that contains the campaign files, then the large images will impact how long it takes for those thumbnails to be created and loaded. I do not know when that memory gets released.

[pindercarl]

A fair assessment on image size. Is there any cost to large images sitting in the campaign if they are not opened?

Basically, I don't want to spend the time to resize maps that are unlikely to be used again soon, but there is always the chance that I'll need them on the fly.

If there is no cost while running FGU if they remain in the campaign but unopened, I'm inclined to leave them there, but if there is a processing cost somehow, I should devote the time to go through everything.

Thanks very much for all of your input on this.

If you open the folder containing the images in the Asset Window, it will need to generate a thumbnail. If you have shared the image, then it will need to be sent to new players. There shouldn't be any other ongoing costs that I can think of for unused images.

[Laerun]

The FX mask blur is now baked in so there should no longer be a run-time cost. I can take a closer look at the FX cost but a casual look at your campaign shows that most of the images are at, above, or far above the recommended dimensions.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?80082-FGU-Freezes-Briefly-Every-10-Seconds&p=706072&viewfull=1#post706072

[rocketvaultgames]

The FX mask blur is now baked in so there should no longer be a run-time cost. I can take a closer look at the FX cost but a casual look at your campaign shows that most of the images are at, above, or far above the recommended dimensions.

I've been going through more and more maps. Very large maps that used to perform flawlessly in 4.4 take a huge performance hit now for each FX added. 1 is bad, 2 is nigh-unusable depending on map size.

[pindercarl]

I've been going through more and more maps. Very large maps that used to perform flawlessly in 4.4 take a huge performance hit now for each FX added. 1 is bad, 2 is nigh-unusable depending on map size.

Thanks. I was able to find an issue with the FX layers and committed a fix. This should be addressed in the next updated.

[rocketvaultgames]

Thanks. I was able to find an issue with the FX layers and committed a fix. This should be addressed in the next updated.

Awesome. Thanks!

I really appreciate the responsiveness and help with everything.

[rocketvaultgames]

Thanks. I was able to find an issue with the FX layers and committed a fix. This should be addressed in the next updated.

FX performance on large maps seems to be the same as 4.4 after the last update. Thanks for the fix!

[rocketvaultgames]

I know this was fixed at some point but it appears to be broken again. Even 1 FX visible causes substantial video lag when resizing the window. Each additional FX visible makes it substantially worse. Hiding them solves the problem completely.

This was not an issue in 4.4 even on very large maps.

[pindercarl]

I know this was fixed at some point but it appears to be broken again. Even 1 FX visible causes substantial video lag when resizing the window. Each additional FX visible makes it substantially worse. Hiding them solves the problem completely.

This was not an issue in 4.4 even on very large maps.

I can take a look at this. Are there masks on the FX layers? How big is the image window?

[rocketvaultgames]

"Map - Vilkstead"

The layer with the mask (Water) has the largest impact on performance when resizing the window. The layers without masks (Clouds/Snow/Snow) have a lesser impact, but it is still noticeable.

The image window is taking up roughly half of a 4k display in this instance.

i7-13700KF 3.40 GHz
64 GB DDR5
Samsung 990 Pro NVMe
RTX 4070 TI (12 GB dedicated / 43.9 GB total)

Zipped Campaign: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qof9xrqmrx0g0bt/Forgotten%20Realms%202020.zip?dl=0

[Zacchaeus]

You may want to consider testing in a new campaign without extensions; and uploading that campaign with just the problematic image (if there is still an issue). The campaign is a tad big as it stands and there's some very large images in there. It may not have much effect but you might want to clear out the images a bit since I don't imagine that you are using all of them at the same time (especially those that are over 4Mb). I didn't see any particular lag when resizing the image but I don't have a 4k monitor; nor do I have any of the extensions being used - so those may be factors.

[rocketvaultgames]

I did check it without extensions. My understanding is that the large images should have 0 effect if they are not shared with players nor accessed during a session (no thumbnail generation, etc.)...

This issue seems specifically tied to the current image while being resized with either Control-Left-Click-Drag, or just Left-Click-Drag from a Right/Down/Lower Right Corner handle while FX are visible. Masks make it worse, and number of FX make it worse (with even a single mask causing the greatest issue). It is worse with larger maps but can start to be seen in a new campaign with no extensions with a single water layer with a mask.

Even very large images are fine to scroll around. It's specifically during resizing and this did not happen in 4.4. Was fixed at some point after 4.5 (see above), then reverted.

I definitely don't know how this works behind the scenes, but maybe a possibility would be to lock the FX to their current visible state when resizing starts and then turn them back on after resizing action ends?

[pindercarl]

I did check it without extensions. My understanding is that the large images should have 0 effect if they are not shared with players nor accessed during a session (no thumbnail generation, etc.)...

This issue seems specifically tied to the current image while being resized with either Control-Left-Click-Drag, or just Left-Click-Drag from a Right/Down/Lower Right Corner handle while FX are visible. Masks make it worse, and number of FX make it worse (with even a single mask causing the greatest issue). It is worse with larger maps but can start to be seen in a new campaign with no extensions with a single water layer with a mask.

Even very large images are fine to scroll around. It's specifically during resizing and this did not happen in 4.4. Was fixed at some point after 4.5 (see above), then reverted.

I definitely don't know how this works behind the scenes, but maybe a possibility would be to lock the FX to their current visible state when resizing starts and then turn them back on after resizing action ends?

Thanks for the extra information. It is in line with what I expected. There is some re-allocation of resources that happens when the image window is resized. I'm going to see if I can stall the reallocation until the window is resized. I'm not sure if the right hooks are in place, or if I have to insert them.

[pindercarl]

I did check it without extensions. My understanding is that the large images should have 0 effect if they are not shared with players nor accessed during a session (no thumbnail generation, etc.)...

This issue seems specifically tied to the current image while being resized with either Control-Left-Click-Drag, or just Left-Click-Drag from a Right/Down/Lower Right Corner handle while FX are visible. Masks make it worse, and number of FX make it worse (with even a single mask causing the greatest issue). It is worse with larger maps but can start to be seen in a new campaign with no extensions with a single water layer with a mask.

Even very large images are fine to scroll around. It's specifically during resizing and this did not happen in 4.4. Was fixed at some point after 4.5 (see above), then reverted.

I definitely don't know how this works behind the scenes, but maybe a possibility would be to lock the FX to their current visible state when resizing starts and then turn them back on after resizing action ends?

I've committed a fix for the resize issue. It should be available in the next release update.

[rocketvaultgames]

Fantastic! Thanks so much for your continued support. It is truly appreciated.