Portraits that have shown me who is logged in with what PC now no longer seem to work

[SilentRuin]

Basically real estate on the screen is always at a high premium and stuff that auto takes it up has to be really useful to warrant doing it.

I like the way portraits in upper left show who is logged in with what PC.

But in TEST I just had about 8 portaits with noone logged in taking up a ton of screen real estate - more than half of them are not even visible on my CT at the moment.

Was this intentional? If so, will we be able to set an option to NOT have this happen and to only show the way it used to do so that I can see who is logged in or drops out at a glance?

[Sulimo]

Are the characters in the Party Sheet?

https://i.imgur.com/JighFaW.png


CoreRPG.
Left; Characters not in the Party Sheet
Right; Characters in the Party Sheet
Seems like it's working as described to me.
https://i.imgur.com/uQpO2uE.jpg

[SilentRuin]

Yes they were all in the character sheet but none were logged in. As I said - real estate is at a premium and I would like the old way of only showing clients actually logged in, instead of a clutter of things that just confuse who is here - who has dropped out - and taking up valuable space. Trouble enough with windows not always clicking when overlapping edges of other windows in FGU without adding a slew of other ones automagically. If others want this (not sure why) that's fine - just make sure those of us who use the current system to track who is actually in - who has dropped out - and what they currently own in terms of PCs is not lost in the jumble. Make it optional.

[Egheal]

I, for one, love the fact that all the portraits who are in the party sheet are displayed. I think it is important for the players who can easily forget the NPCs in their team. You can still see who is connected in this space: the connection of the player who has a character sheet attributed is visualised by the presence of a colored point on the portrait (the color of is dices).
If the connected player has no attributed character his name appears with a blank portrait and, when he select his character sheet, this blank portrait disappear and the colored point appear on the selected portrait.
But, surely, making this new (for me awesome) behavior optional would probably be a good thing.

[SilentRuin]

If clients can see NPCs they own then I can see the use of that - but the HOST is what I'm primarily concerned with - seeing everything a player owns is not something I want splayed on my screen when they run 20 NPCs during a ship raid or something. That would be hell. Hence, do not WANT host showing everything a player owns - of if they do its one expandable dropdown or something for each player so those logged in show one portrait (active) with option to see what else they have.

Personally I have the CT showing me who owns what simply by hovering over the link to the CT entry. Blasting everything on the limited real estate can cover the entire thing. I get other people deal with a player managing one NPC or something - but that is not the way of my world. This would destroy the window space for me.

[Egheal]

Your players runs more than one character? (exceptionally it could be two in my games but 20!!!) I can't imagine the time it could take for only one round of combat :eek: Clearly in your case this new behavior has to be optional!

[SilentRuin]

Yes sometimes they run more than one PC but mostly they run owned NPCs (not PCs - NPCs). I thought you said this was going to show NPCs owned by them? Did I misread that?

Here is an example of one player controlling a boarding party (20-30 NPCs - no PC) and each player had one PC and 4-5 NPCs while another 40 or so neutral/static NPCs populated the ship. If as you say my host machine would suddenly sprout 55 portraits - then I would be mightly annoyed.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?76823-Sw5e&p=681754&viewfull=1#post681754

[Moon Wizard]

It's a union of logged in characters and characters in the party sheet. If you don't want them at the top of the screen, remove the characters from the party sheet.

Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

It's a union of logged in characters and characters in the party sheet. If you don't want them at the top of the screen, remove the characters from the party sheet.

Regards,
JPG

So your suggestion is to abandon all the usefulness of a party sheet in order to disable this new screen clutter?

Seriously, if you guys are making features that require disabling other features in order to get the behavior we used to have - without an option...

Really, I have no words.

[Moon Wizard]

Why wouldn't you want "party members" in the party sheet to be part of the party shown in the upper left of the tabletop?
There have been "many" users over the years that asked how to add party members to the desktop, so that they could handle showing PCs not owned by players. All the feedback that I've gotten to date has been positive for this change.

It sounds like perhaps you are using the party sheet in a way that is different than most people, or "enhanced" for something else you are doing. If you are "enhancing" the party sheet for other users using your extensions, then just turn off party members displaying when using your extension.
(CharacterListManager.getPartyIdentities = function () return {} end)

Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

What are you talking about? I use party sheet like everyone else - for extra data on my PCs and the shared inventory and tracking data.

I have said one thing - I use the portraits to track who has their PC ready to go and who does not...

That's it.

You said I should be able to prevent all the stuff popping up in TEST by simply removing them from party sheet.

Basically telling me - in order to retain a valuable feature - I need to remove another.

Where you are getting "I must be using it differently" is beyond me. Yes I do make the party sheet inventories better at sharing data - but that has 0 to do with this discussion. I could be using no extensions and still complain in the same manner.

If its easier for you fine, when using no extensions my real estate is cluttered to such an extent I can no longer easily tell at a glance who is ready with their PC, who is not, or who has lost connection.

I don't want to "fix it" by removing PCs from the party sheet as I use that for all sorts of info on the PCs, their group placement, etc.

Make an option.

[LordEntrails]

I'm a bit confused. So now all PCs in the party sheet show on the upper left. And their is widget (now) on them that shows which players are logged in and owning the player.

The only thing that really is different, is now all the portraits show all of the time, just like what will happen once everyone joins the game. The only use I case I see this changes is in a campaigns when you have lots of players but only a subset of them regularly attend, and you still want them all in the party sheet.

I understand the desire for an option, but I also know that the more options you add, the more confusion it causes new users and the harder it is to maintain the code.

[SilentRuin]

I'm a bit confused. So now all PCs in the party sheet show on the upper left. And their is widget (now) on them that shows which players are logged in and owning the player.

The only thing that really is different, is now all the portraits show all of the time, just like what will happen once everyone joins the game. The only use I case I see this changes is in a campaigns when you have lots of players but only a subset of them regularly attend, and you still want them all in the party sheet.

I understand the desire for an option, but I also know that the more options you add, the more confusion it causes new users and the harder it is to maintain the code.

I get everyone is way smarter and observant than me as a DM and that the idea of having easy to see at a glance portraits pop on or off when a player "is ready to go" is only for the unobservant who notice an icon change amongst all the windows and other things they are managing. Why accomadate them? I mean if you can't notice an icon shift while in the middle of running a game what good are you as a DM?

The inability for people to understand this is a valuable tool in game management - and offering the option to get it back simply by removing another valuable feature like party sheet...

Boggles my mind.

Though I'm sure the alert whizbangs who track tiny icons amongst the limited real estate by flooding portraits not in play, that I don't need for any reason, are all fired up for it.

I get it. I lose. Carry on.

[LordEntrails]

okay... So maybe I'm starting to understand. So you want to know when players come and go, and the portraits was how you were doing that and the mouse over widget doesn't do that easily. I can see that. I just never had an issue with players coming and going like that so it didn't make sense to me.

What about the extension idea Moon suggested? It looked like it is only a couple lines of code to revert that behavior. Is it really that simple?

[SilentRuin]

I would love to hear your suggestion to someone who knows nothing about extensions on how to get around this.

Disable the Party sheet.

Great solution.

Yes, I know I have written a ton of extension to make my life as a DM easier. And even some to disable stuff where FGU helpfully hardcoded defintions to unrequested with no option added into sheets that sabatoged homebrew stuff.

I have enough sandcastles (extensions) built on the shifting sands of FGU (5e/corerpg/engine) that get broken on every other update, thank you very much.

They will option it or not, I've made my case.

I'll just lose a valuable function in FGU along with the non extension writers.

[Moon Wizard]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I gave you a one-line piece of script code that would disable the automatic addition of party sheet members to the character list that are not logged in. I suggest making it a personal extension, since my feedback experience is that most people want to see the whole party even when not everyone logged in or have GM-controlled PCs at the top.

Here it is again.


function onInit()
CharacterListManager.getPartyIdentities = function () return {} end
end


Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

You repeating what I already knew... Good luck to people when they actually start using this stuff - left client - right host (use your imagination if its wider and your using wider map and other windows).

Where's waldo? (Test Mods)

Guess your out of luck.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59356&d=1700884601

And what's it look like if I pull it down so I can see him?

Oh its just so so obvious who is logged in, right?

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59357&d=1700884823

And yes client is on local machine and its not intelligent enough to realize that its a client so spams it like its host probably. I guess this as I've had to override other FGU code that doesn't bother to check for that.

[Roach]

I have to agree I consider this unnecessary screen clutter, too...
I use a game mechanic by which characters whose players aren't able to make it are 'stored' in some extradimensional space so we don't have to worry at the beginning/end of each seession how the 'missing' members of the group figure out where the rest went off to. I keep everyone in the combat tracker, so when I set up an encounter I drag the 'friendly' helmet to the map, then go through the list of present characters and weed out those that aren't there - and sometimes adjust the opposition accordingly, which I can easily determine by looking at the portrait bar - which, to save on space for the chat window, I have moed from the top to the bottom of the window (and also because that saves on dragging movement when whispering).
In addition, while waiting for ppl to log in before a session, I occasionally glance at the window preview to see whether people have logged in - which I cannot do ithg this new setup because the little dot is too small to even be noticeable in the preview. And at the end of a session, I use it to make sure the players have all logged out of the session so I can shut down the table without interrupting them finishing up notes, checking their characters, and Actions &c.
Al this ha suddenly become much harder to do... And "I want you to see at a glance what characters are in the party" to me is a very poor replacment for all that functionality. At least a setup option would be nice...

[HywelPhillips]

I see the point that it removes the ability for the GM to see who is logged in at a glance. I use it that way myself and the dot is not a vivid enough visual change to adequately replace that functionality to my aging eyes.

Suggestions:

1) Grey out unconnected portraits, which is a fairly standard UI convention from online gaming and chat I think. Makes it visually much more obvious. Preserves both sorts of functionality without adding a setup option.

2) Allow a setup option to toggle the behaviour, which if it is a one-liner bit of code to implement feels like it is a worthwhile one. I'd personally leave it at its current setting ie only show portraits for logged in players because I'm used to it working that way and I value the at-a-glance who is logged in functionality.

Cheers, Hywel

[SilentRuin]

Having the portrait spam where logged in users randomly appear in the list instead of at the front I would think is not even good for those who want the party sheet protrait spamming.

If I had one good thing to say about a tiny part of this new feature it would be the new ? mark for a user logged in, but not with a PC chosen yet. That is a good improvement. But as is currently, its completely negated tracking users online, having chosen a PC, or dropped out in any easily recognized manner.

[Egheal]

Just me tying to understand what would look like the ext suggested by Moon Wizard:
is it just like that? :
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
<root version="3.0">
<properties>
<name>No NPC Portraits</name>
<version>1.0</version>
<author>Test</author>
<description>No NPC Portraits on desk</description>
</properties>
<base>
function onInit()
CharacterListManager.getPartyIdentities = function () return {} end
end
</base>
</root>
Sorry I'm very new to this extension stuff, I want to understand and see what this code would do in this instance.

[Ludd_G]

Hi,

I'd just like to say that I also use the portraits to indicate who is logged on with a character and would really prefer not to have that changed without an simple option to retain. If a character isn't presently owned by a logged in player I don't want to see their portrait, thanks.

Cheers,

Simon

[Jiminimonka]

I better check what all this fuss is about.

[Jiminimonka]

I see the point that it removes the ability for the GM to see who is logged in at a glance. I use it that way myself and the dot is not a vivid enough visual change to adequately replace that functionality to my aging eyes.

Suggestions:

1) Grey out unconnected portraits, which is a fairly standard UI convention from online gaming and chat I think. Makes it visually much more obvious. Preserves both sorts of functionality without adding a setup option.

2) Allow a setup option to toggle the behaviour, which if it is a one-liner bit of code to implement feels like it is a worthwhile one. I'd personally leave it at its current setting ie only show portraits for logged in players because I'm used to it working that way and I value the at-a-glance who is logged in functionality.

Cheers, Hywel

Yeah a "Disonnected" image (broken link) over unconnected player icons would help methinks.

Other than that, unless you have a lot of characters, then its fine as far as I can see. Maybe have the icons scale down when more than 10 are connected so they take up the same amount of space (half sized icons stacked in the same location).

[Ludd_G]

Or have an option to retain present behaviour?

[rocketvaultgames]

I would also prefer an option to retain the current functionality without removing characters from the party sheet.

I like the portraits to show characters that are currently claimed and connected.

Not every PC plays in every session, but it is still nice to have access to their party sheet info when they aren't there without taking up screen space or confusing who is actually there.

What is the proposed benefit of the new way?

[Egheal]

I'm the Mother of an Alien RPG game. There is currently 9 colonial marines in the team but only 4 players. It is a great help for the players to visualise who is in the team
and who is playing what (no colored dot? ---> controlled by Mother, colored dot?---> controlled by a player and just point at the dot to know the name of the controlling player).
That's particularly nice in this game because if your character die you can take an NPC on the fly.
Perhaps the dots are to small? It is important to change the color of the dots, black ones are indeed not easy to spot.
I think that it is a great improvement but it is probably something that could be only optional has it seems it is very annoying for some of you.
The lines of code provided by Moon Wizard are meant to do that exact thing but I'm unable to make it work in an extension to test it.

[Moon Wizard]

I added the gold border to the color dots, just like in the color selection option; in order to make them a little more visible. I'm concerned about making them too big, because that either takes more desktop space or obscures the image more. Also, I try to avoid too many options, as they increase the complexity of learning to use as well as each campaign setup.

In this case, I think an option may be the way to go, since some of you appear to use the desktop character list differently than others. However, I still feel strongly that the new default behavior is a generally better experience for new FG users, so that will be the default option.

The new build in the Test channel will fade party PCs that are not owned when they are shown; and provide an option to only show Active PCs.

Regards,
JPG

[rocketvaultgames]

This sounds like the best of both worlds. Thanks much!!

[SilentRuin]

Huzzah!

[Egheal]

Perfect!

[Ludd_G]

Thank you!

[HywelPhillips]

Appreciate it, thanks!

[SilentRuin]

Tested new option and it works. I will for sure be setting these two new very handy options when TEST goes LIVE.

Per User

Desktop: Restore windows on start
On

Game

Desktop: Show PCs
Active Only