Handling per PC and per NPC detection

[webdove]

Hi,

The Core Rulebook p465 says "Typically, the GM tracks how well creatures detect each other".

PF2 makes a big deal about how the time varying state of detection (Undetected, Hidden, Observed) between each PC/NPC pair affects play.

It appears that I need to maintain a table of how detected all the NPCs are to each PC and how detected all the PCs are to each NPC. I need to adjust the table and the implied effects on actors each time an action is taken (e.g. Rat #1 is flat-footed relative to Merisiel).
This looks difficult since effects are not generally actor specific. For example if I put flat-footed on Rat #1 for Merisiel's first action I seem to have to then remove it for her second action.

Have you given any thought to in game tools to help me with this activity (like the future Save DC window will help with saving throws) or automation that might be beneficial?

(I am cringing thinking about having to do this all manually and wondering how others have been handling it in Release 18.

Thanks

Web

[Zacchaeus]

This kind of thing is worked out when it becomes the player or NPCs turn on the Combat Tracker.

So it comes around to Bob's turn; what can he see at this point. What enemies can he target; which ones are in cover or hidden. All of that would be a simple matter of looking at the map (assuming the map has line of sight switched on and you have lighting also switched on). If Bob can see a token then they can attack it. If the target has cover then there's effects that can be applied and if Bob has any special abilities that would make the target flat-footed for example then he can apply that effect to the target before making his attack. Similarly when it comes to an NPCs turn do they see Bob; or do they have any senses that would allow them to see Bob. If they have or they don't rely on special senses and Bob is in their line of sight then they can target him.

And really all of this is only going to apply to the situation before combat really begins. Most of the perception stuff will be done by any characters using the Seek action. It will be they who need to roll perception and you'll need to decide whether the NPCs detect them. Once combat starts pretty much everyone on both sides will be aware of everyone else unless they are deliberately trying to hide; are invisible or have some special abilities that make them difficult to detect.

I don't think you need to have a running commentary of how detection changes after every action.

[Trenloe]

There's really no need to go into great detail here. Definitely don't think along the lines of maintaining a table of detection, let FG handle the main things and then apply effects/conditions when needed.

This is what I do:

Show/hide NPCs via the "eye" icon in the CT to make NPC tokens seen or not seen - both on the map on in the CT. If you're using LoS/Lighting you can also let FG handle the display of tokens on the map, but that will still have them visible in the CT.
If there's a specific activity that is being carried out and a condition/effect applies, then apply it as needed. You should be able to eyeball things to know if a NPC is concealed, has cover, etc..
If a creature does something to specifically add a condition - e.g. hides behind some barrels, then you can add the relevant condition/effect to them in the CT so that you don't forget and any activities against that creature will be taken into account.
If a PC has a specific ability then work with the player to get that set up and ask them to apply the relevant confitions/effects. For example, a rogue's surprise attack - "On the first round of combat, if you roll Deception or Stealth for initiative, creatures that haven’t acted are flat-footed to you." Don't bother setting all creatures that have an initiative lower than the rogue to flat-footed to the rogue; if the ability applies then ask the player to add the flat-footed effect to their target before they do any attack/damage actions and ask them to remove it after.


If you're running a long term game with the same players, I'll work with the players to set up their PCs to allow them to apply the effects/conditions they need for the PCs from their FG character sheet. I'll also work with them to make sure they know how to use the character sheet - this makes the game a little slow at first, but the time investment is worth it as all the players get to know more about how to use FG and will quickly be handling most of the activities related to their PCs themselves.

Anything else is handled on a case-by-case basis. If a player says their PC is attacking a target that is concealed to them, then ask the player to wait a moment and either you or they can quickly apply the "concealed" condition before rolling the attack. You could also ask the player to use the modifiers window to set various conditions before they roll their attack and/or damage - things like cover, flat-footed, concealed/hidden and MAP.


Have you given any thought to in game tools to help me with this activity (like the future Save DC window will help with saving throws) or automation that might be beneficial?
Yes, a lot of thought has gone into how the ruleset has been designed so far. And Release 19 expands on this dramatically, but Release 18 still allows for a lot of automation.


(I am cringing thinking about having to do this all manually and wondering how others have been handling it in Release 18.
As mentioned above - work with your players to make the experience easier on everyone, and you don't need to track everything - apply things when they matter; it's straight forward to make a decision when an activity occurs and apply the relevant conditions/effects. If something needs to be tracked (especially something that has a duration) then apply the effect/condition in the CT with a duration so that it doesn't get forgotten about.

[Trenloe]

This looks difficult since effects are not generally actor specific. For example if I put flat-footed on Rat #1 for Merisiel's first action I seem to have to then remove it for her second action.
Effects can be actor specific if you use effect targeting. See Combat Tracker -> Targets here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996643388/PFRPG2+Effects#Combat-Tracker


For example if I put flat-footed on Rat #1 for Merisiel's first action I seem to have to then remove it for her second action.
Ask the player to control what effects they are applying, and removing. They can also use set the "Expenditure" to only apply to the next action/roll - see Campaign Effects -> Expenditure here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996643388/PFRPG2+Effects#Campaign-Effects

[Gwaihir Scout]

There's also the Desktop modifier buttons extension that gives you one-use effects for hidden, concealed, flat-footed, and the various cover states.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63359-Modifier-buttons-on-the-desktop-(extension)&p=633961&viewfull=1#post633961

[Trenloe]

There's also the Desktop modifier buttons extension that gives you one-use effects for hidden, concealed, flat-footed, and the various cover states.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63359-Modifier-buttons-on-the-desktop-(extension)&p=633961&viewfull=1#post633961

That's a good one if you use the modifiers a lot. If you use only a couple of specific modifiers frequently, you can drag it from the modifier window to a hotkey slot - this is in the base ruleset, no extension required.

[Atreides Ghola]

There's also the Desktop modifier buttons extension that gives you one-use effects for hidden, concealed, flat-footed, and the various cover states.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63359-Modifier-buttons-on-the-desktop-(extension)&p=633961&viewfull=1#post633961


I don't think that actually applies the flat-footed effect, though. Just the -2 AC, so it won't trigger things like sneak attack damage.

[Gwaihir Scout]

I think you're right, so its usefulness depends on how you code Sneak Attack. I haven't seen the Rogue in use in PF2 yet, so I don't know if Trenloe automated it, but in PF1 we always used a one-use DMG effect instead of a constant IFT(flat-footed).

[Trenloe]

I don't think that actually applies the flat-footed effect, though. Just the -2 AC, so it won't trigger things like sneak attack damage.
You're correct. The Flat-footed modifier button is only used for Attacks. "IFT: Flat-footed" code looks for the "Flat-footed" condition.

[webdove]

This kind of thing is worked out when it becomes the player or NPCs turn on the Combat Tracker.

So it comes around to Bob's turn; what can he see at this point. What enemies can he target; which ones are in cover or hidden. All of that would be a simple matter of looking at the map (assuming the map has line of sight switched on and you have lighting also switched on). If Bob can see a token then they can attack it. If the target has cover then there's effects that can be applied and if Bob has any special abilities that would make the target flat-footed for example then he can apply that effect to the target before making his attack. Similarly when it comes to an NPCs turn do they see Bob; or do they have any senses that would allow them to see Bob. If they have or they don't rely on special senses and Bob is in their line of sight then they can target him.

And really all of this is only going to apply to the situation before combat really begins. Most of the perception stuff will be done by any characters using the Seek action. It will be they who need to roll perception and you'll need to decide whether the NPCs detect them. Once combat starts pretty much everyone on both sides will be aware of everyone else unless they are deliberately trying to hide; are invisible or have some special abilities that make them difficult to detect.

I don't think you need to have a running commentary of how detection changes after every action.

My reading of PF2 rules is that the state of awareness between an observer and a target changes when they roll a stealth initiative coming out of an Avoid Notice activity, when they take the seek action to become more aware, or when the targets take an actions like Hide, Step, Sneak or Stride or make an attacks. So when an observer starts it's turn there is no automatic new assessment of what they detect and how well. The prior state of awareness to all potential targets is their starting point, not a new awareness assessment. This necessitates keeping track of the state of awareness for each actor to any potential targets. If during the round a target successfully sneaks to a new covered or concealed location and becomes unnoticed to a given observer then when that observer's turn comes around, that is the observers starting awareness for that potential target.

I do appreciate Trenloe's point below that I can enlist the players to keep track of their PC's awareness state to all potential targets rather then me having to do it for them. That will simplify my job.

Similarly I can see that having the player put conditions like flat-footed or hidden on targets before they take actions would save me work and time as well.

Unfortunately they cannot do that ahead of their turn since FGU does not have the equivalent of targeted effects for effects that only apply when a particular source actor is acting under the influence of that effect (e.g. flat-footed, but only if attacked by PC Merisel). Such an FGU capability would allow the state of awareness related effect for a given source actor to be left on the target between turns. That said, it might well be more complicated for me to remove and edit source specific condition effects on all the NPCs than to do as Trenloe suggests below and just re-add the necessary effects based on the records that the player or I keep of the evolving state of awareness for each PC and NPC as various actions are taken.

[webdove]

There's really no need to go into great detail here. Definitely don't think along the lines of maintaining a table of detection, let FG handle the main things and then apply effects/conditions when needed.

This is what I do:

1. Show/hide NPCs via the "eye" icon in the CT to make NPC tokens seen or not seen - both on the map on in the CT. If you're using LoS/Lighting you can also let FG handle the display of tokens on the map, but that will still have them visible in the CT.

Agreed.


2. If there's a specific activity that is being carried out and a condition/effect applies, then apply it as needed. You should be able to eyeball things to know if a NPC is concealed, has cover, etc.

I agree about "apply as needed", but if I want to follow the rules as written I and the players need to keep track of the evolving state of awareness for PCs and NPCs and put those effects on the PC and target(s) when the new player wants to act then remove them after. Rather than establish them from current NPC's concealment/cover without regard to whether they are hidden, unnoticed, undetected or observer from earlier events.


3. If a creature does something to specifically add a condition - e.g. hides behind some barrels, then you can add the relevant condition/effect to them in the CT so that you don't forget and any activities against that creature will be taken into account.

Here is the rub. If NPC A does something to become hidden from PC X, I cannot add hidden to the the NPC A CT entry right then. If the next round is for PC Y then hidden on NPC A might not apply to them.

Instead I have to tell player X to remember that NPC A is now hidden from PC X. When we come back to PC X's turn (assuming nothing has changed) player X can put hidden onto NPC A in the CT for PC X's actions that turn.

I very much like the concept of the PF2 rules for awareness and effects, but this is where something like having an FGU effect record on the CT entry for PC X which says "NPC A is hidden from me" or "NPC A is flat-footed to me". Would allow Player X to use those records on PC X to keep track of any changes in PC X's awareness of NPC A or the side effects of that awareness. Then when we come back to PC X's turn everything would be ready to go without having to be transcribed into the CT entry of NPC A at the start of PC X's turn and then deleted at the end of PC X's turn.


4. If a PC has a specific ability then work with the player to get that set up and ask them to apply the relevant conditions/effects. For example, a rogue's surprise attack - "On the first round of combat, if you roll Deception or Stealth for initiative, creatures that haven’t acted are flat-footed to you." Don't bother setting all creatures that have an initiative lower than the rogue to flat-footed to the rogue; if the ability applies then ask the player to add the flat-footed effect to their target before they do any attack/damage actions and ask them to remove it after.

If you're running a long term game with the same players, I'll work with the players to set up their PCs to allow them to apply the effects/conditions they need for the PCs from their FG character sheet. I'll also work with them to make sure they know how to use the character sheet - this makes the game a little slow at first, but the time investment is worth it as all the players get to know more about how to use FG and will quickly be handling most of the activities related to their PCs themselves.

Agreed. Having them help would be good for me, but a bit of a chore for them if I am correct about the mechanics above.


Anything else is handled on a case-by-case basis. If a player says their PC is attacking a target that is concealed to them, then ask the player to wait a moment and either you or they can quickly apply the "concealed" condition before rolling the attack. You could also ask the player to use the modifiers window to set various conditions before they roll their attack and/or damage - things like cover, flat-footed, concealed/hidden and MAP.

Yes given my current state of understanding. (What is MAP?)


Yes, a lot of thought has gone into how the ruleset has been designed so far. And Release 19 expands on this dramatically, but Release 18 still allows for a lot of automation.

As mentioned above - work with your players to make the experience easier on everyone, and you don't need to track everything - apply things when they matter; it's straight forward to make a decision when an activity occurs and apply the relevant conditions/effects. If something needs to be tracked (especially something that has a duration) then apply the effect/condition in the CT with a duration so that it doesn't get forgotten about.

Thanks very much for those ideas!

[webdove]

There's also the Desktop modifier buttons extension that gives you one-use effects for hidden, concealed, flat-footed, and the various cover states.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63359-Modifier-buttons-on-the-desktop-(extension)&p=633961&viewfull=1#post633961

Yes I grabbed those earlier.
I also found these to be helpful custom effects for the ones missing in the effects panel
Cover +2 AC Reflex Stealth; COVER
GCover +4 AC Reflex Stealth; GCOVER
LCover +1 AC; LCOVER

So I don't have to keep looking them up.

[Trenloe]

I agree about "apply as needed", but if I want to follow the rules as written I and the players need to keep track of the evolving state of awareness for PCs and NPCs and put those effects on the PC and target(s) when the new player wants to act then remove them after. Rather than establish them from current NPC's concealment/cover without regard to whether they are hidden, unnoticed, undetected or observer from earlier events.
You'll find in practice that you'll just know for 95% of the NPCs/PCs and can apply the conditions when you need to. This is completely rules as written as you knowing is the tracking and if you apply the conditions/effects only when they're needed (i.e. when they impact something in the game) then you are playing rules as written.

I think you've taken a single sentence in the rulebook in isolation and not really considered how that would work in practice. The whole paragraph you mention is as follows:


Typically, the GM tracks how well creatures detect each other, since neither party has perfect information. For example, you might think a creature is in the last place you sensed it, but it was able to Sneak away. Or you might think a creature can’t see you in the dark, but it has darkvision.
The whole of this paragraph is mentioning when people don't know where other creatures are - and you can use the FG visibility functionality to hide/show creatures (undetected or observed) - or LoS/lighting if it's based on purely whether they are within view. For the in-between "hidden" condition (where you know what square the creature is in but have a flat DC 11 check to be able to target) you can apply the Hidden condition - if this applies only to specific creatures then use effect targeting (see post #4 above).

Everything else, as mentioned, you'll pretty much just know and can apply effects/conditions when needed (when they actually impact activities in the game) by looking at the map and actor positions - for the few exceptions, apply the conditions and use effect targeting to track things.

You don't need to keep applying/removing effects for things you'll just know from positions on the combat map. This is another aspect of "Typically, the GM tracks..." - the GM informs a player before they make an attack/roll damage that a creature is flat-footed to them (e.g. they're a rogue, have used stealth for initiative and their target hasn't acted yet - although, I'd expect the player of the rogue to know this after they've played a bit), has lesser cover (because they're shooting through another creature), is concealed (because they're in some mist), is flanking their target, etc., etc.. You'll know the majority of this from just looking at the map.


Here is the rub. If NPC A does something to become hidden from PC X, I cannot add hidden to the the NPC A CT entry right then. If the next round is for PC Y then hidden on NPC A might not apply to them.
Yes you can. This is known as effect targeting. See my response in post #4.


es given my current state of understanding. (What is MAP?)
MAP = Multi Attack Penalty.

[webdove]

Ask the player to control what effects they are applying, and removing. They can also use set the "Expenditure" to only apply to the next action/roll - see Campaign Effects -> Expenditure here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996643388/PFRPG2+Effects#Campaign-Effects
Hiho,
I was just playing with expenditure per your suggestion. Merisiel the rogue is hiding from Valeros the fighter. I am using ShadeRaven's DnD Actions and Skills for Stealth: . His "(Skill) Stealth: Hide (Strike); Flat footed" effect says expend=On next roll. I apply that to Valeros. When Merisiel attacks the effect disappears from Valeros and when I roll damage there is no sneak attack damage unless I reapply flat-footed. Will there be an expenditure choice that would keep the flat-footed there until the sneak attack damage is done?

[Trenloe]

Will there be an expenditure choice that would keep the flat-footed there until the sneak attack damage is done?
The issue with keeping the flat-footed condition after the attack is that if the attack misses, then there's a flat-footed condition left on the target.

You have two options:
1) Apply the flat-footed condition without an Expire setting, and remove it when it's no longer relevant.
2) Apply a flat-footed condition with expire = roll and then re-apply it as needed (i.e. if the attack hits).

I'd recommend #1.

In the future I may look into an additional effect expire option to keep the effect for multiple actions - but that could get very complex as multiple actions aren't just limited to attack/damage.

[webdove]

It is perplexing that when you set expenditure to next action that it is removed before the action is complete (I assume hit and damage is considered to be one action)

[Trenloe]

It is perplexing that when you set expenditure to next action that it is removed before the action is complete (I assume hit and damage is considered to be one action)
In FG terminology "action" is a single double-click or button press that rolls dice in FG (attack, save, damage, heal). This is documented in the Wiki effects page: "If set to Action, the effect will be applied to the next relevant action (set of rolls)(i.e. area of effect attack rolls as a set)."

So, with this context in mind, expire on "action" is working correctly.

[Trenloe]

You can also set the Flat-footed condition to expire at the end of the PC's turn - then you'll just have to remove it if the PC does further activities in their turn that the flat-footed condition would impact; otherwise it will be removed when the PC advances the CT turn.

Here's some guidance from the rogue's Twin Feint feat in the upcoming Release 19. ETTS (Effect Target to Self), effects in feats and the "How to Use" sections are new in Release 19, the rest totally applies to the current version in live.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57254

[webdove]

That is very nice. I cannot wait for 19 :)

[webdove]

We played our first session last Friday with the Beginner Box adventure and 7 players (I had to boost the number of NPCs to match them). All the automation seemed to be working well.
Because it is hard to detarget individual opponents when you drag a HIDDEN effect target to multiple opponents, I ended up applying HIDDEN to the appropriate actor then enabling and disabling it for the DC 11 flat check depending on which observer was acting. That seemed to work pretty well for me and having the players help was very beneficial.
Thank you for the tips.

I saw none of the inter extension bugs that plagued 5E when many extensions were loaded.
I was using these extensions.
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