Big fan, but this one complaint.

[Blackwolfe]

I'm a big fan of Fantasy Grounds.
I'm very loyal to the system, and I post references to it everywhere I can.
I have only one complaint, and it's more an "over time it builds up" thing.
I know FGU will not be able to fix this for us, nor is it a priority and I understand why.
But after about 3 years of gaming using FGU every week, Man, are we tired of updates conflicting with mods (feels like every week) and popping huge error messages during our game session.
I feel like there should be a more effective system to be sure affected Forge purchased mods are upto date when a patch or system update goes live.
Thanks for listening.
-Blackwolfe.

[superteddy57]

Forge products and extensions provided by the community are not maintained or monitored by us. They are the sole responsibility of the developer that made them available. We do provide long test periods with the new code to allow developers to check those changes and adjust their extensions accordingly. We also provide assistance through discord and the developer portal for answering questions as well. We appreciate the feedback, and will keep it in mind to discuss anything further we can help in easing those issues.

[SilentRuin]

EXTENSIONS = RISK - if not prepared for the risk you should for sure not use them. FGU can break an extension - other extensions can break extensions - they are maintained on whim by their authors and FGU has no control over what they do, when they are updated, or how they are written. What you ask is not possible or even reasonable for them to attempt to do in Forge. Maybe a cat herder could do it - but probably not even them.

[bmos]

I'm a big fan of Fantasy Grounds.
I'm very loyal to the system, and I post references to it everywhere I can.
I have only one complaint, and it's more an "over time it builds up" thing.
I know FGU will not be able to fix this for us, nor is it a priority and I understand why.
But after about 3 years of gaming using FGU every week, Man, are we tired of updates conflicting with mods (feels like every week) and popping huge error messages during our game session.
I feel like there should be a more effective system to be sure affected Forge purchased mods are upto date when a patch or system update goes live.
Thanks for listening.
-Blackwolfe.I see a couple issues that combine to make that a lot worse:
1. Some of the changes that get released don't come with much warning. Most of the changes do, but also some drop the day before release!
2. A lot of extension developers don't update their extensions until someone tells them there is a problem. They don't follow FG development and just cross their fingers.

[LordEntrails]

I limit the number of extensions I use. Basically I picked one developer (Mad Nomad) and use his extensions and pretty much only his. I know he's good about keeping things up to date and not conflicting with his own stuff. I can't imagine the nightmare it would be if I was using a couple dozen extensions from half a dozen or more Authors. And I never update right before a game.

But I know several of the extension devs have talked about this in depth before, and so far, no one has come up with a good solution except to slow down development. And I don't think anyone wants slower development.

I think it's just one of those things, if we are going to use extensions, we (the GMs) have to be more careful about when we update and what extensions we use. And doing our own testing before game time. I used to not use extensions because of this, but I found sticking with one developer works pretty well.

[Zacchaeus]

I think it would be very difficult for any kind of system to be put in place that would negate errors due to extensions completely. As noted above new code will usually be found in the test channel for a number of weeks before it goes live so that extension developers do have the chance to change their code if needed. However Apart from that there are several other issues over which Smiteworks (and extension developers) don't have any control.

I see problem reports all the time here and on Discord and most often it's because the user hasn't updated an extension from the DMsGuild or some source other than the forge. Then there's extension conflicts, where extensions do something with the same section of code and one wins but causes the other to break. There's an awful lot of very large extensions out there nowadays which do so much that it touches many parts of the code and those extension are fragile and are apt to interfere with other extensions. Then there are the people who just get every extension going - I know of people using ridiculous numbers of extension (like over 50) and they must have errors pretty much every session. And there are also users who don't even understand what the extensions they have enabled actually do (or even in some cases how they got them in the first place).

I agree with LE above; using a small number of extensions that solve your top pain points is fine. Stay away from the massive extensions which do too many things and change too much of the code. Use a handful of small compact extensions which do one or two things and it is likely your experience will be much smoother.

But I doubt that there can ever be a system where it is guaranteed that an extension won't break your game at any point. It's the nature of modding games that when there's an update mods break. I see this in many games that I play; the code changes and then the modders catch up and alter their code. But there'll always be a period when you need to disable mods in order to get things to work.

[damned]

excluding that there are way more than 1 ruleset

If you ran 5 extensions and only from the Forge, where there are 307 extensions listed, that is potentially 2 trillion combinations that might need to be tested to ensure that they did not conflict and you would have to test a lot of stuff....

[Laerun]

The proliferation and overreliance on third-party extensions in Fantasy Grounds has led to a situation where some users prioritize automation over gameplay and fun. The constant concern about potential extension conflicts and platform instability has made many users hesitant to rely too heavily on these add-ons. However, there is a growing expectation among some users that they should have access to a plethora of extensions, even if they are not necessary for their gameplay experience.

This expectation has led to an excess of extensions, which can have negative consequences for platform performance and memory resource management. Additionally, some users blame the platform when their large number of extensions cause problems, rather than taking responsibility for their own over-reliance on them.

There has also been a shift towards monetization over necessity, with some creators prioritizing quantity over quality. This has resulted in an emphasis on small and often unnecessary features, rather than improving overall gameplay.

It is crucial to strike a balance between automation and manual gameplay to ensure an enjoyable experience for all users. However, some players have lost sight of the fact that the platform's primary purpose is to facilitate tabletop roleplaying, not to automate every aspect of gameplay. New features and code optimization are necessary for the platform's overall health, and it is up to extension creators to adapt to changes, rather than expecting the platform to accommodate them.

This issue is not unique to Fantasy Grounds, and it can be observed on other virtual tabletop platforms as well. The evolution of gameplay from a ttrpg emulator to a heavily automated tabletop simulator session has contributed to the problem, but ultimately, the responsibility lies with the users and their expectations.

[SilentRuin]

...the responsibility lies with the users and their expectations.

Those pesky users are a menace. Plus as I often remind them in Grim Press discord...

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57021&d=1681224411

[Laerun]

Those pesky users are a menace. Plus as I often remind them in Grim Press discord...

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57021&d=1681224411

I am just as guilty or a part of this issue too. I just happened to learn my own lesson sooner. My greater worry is the potential for extensions to be removed as a marketable asset on the Forge if this becomes a greater issue.

[SilentRuin]

I am just as guilty or a part of this issue too. I just happened to learn my own lesson sooner. My greater worry is the potential for extensions to be removed as a marketable asset on the Forge if this becomes a greater issue.

I think there be drama is all. Because literally - since I arrived into FGU 3 years ago - I've never seen a time that extensions were not breaking things. Ever. And for sure the FGU side of things has gotten much less likely to break extensions as they give you time to adjust to breaking changes in TEST.

So all seems much better in that respect.

Now are there more people tossing extensions out there where they put zero time into tracking FGU changes or that they just "do their thing" with no attempt at all to play nice with others and do the minimal imprint in commonly shared code and insure they call the old code where possible?

Don't know. As I tend to use only about 4 extensions I don't write myself and I know they react quick to any breaking of their code. Plus I'm not that picky outside of outright breakage - "good enough" (no console errors or visible interruption of my desired session playstyle) is all I expect.

Also there is an influx of users that simply don't understand the core concept of all extensions no matter who they got them from...

EXTENSIONS = RISK

[Lo Zeno]

I too don't think there's a definitive solution to the issue - but there are things that could be done to mitigate the problem, partially.
One thing would be to let user decide what to update and what not to: say for example that I use two extensions, AwesomeDiceCombobulator and ChatDefustigator. ChatDefustigator has a minor bug that fustigates the chat instead of defustigating it when someone rolls a 6 on a d6. ADC works perfectly.
Then one day I see on the forum that the developer of ChatDefustigator has fixed the bug: nice! But at the same time, I see that some users are reporting that the new version of AwesomeDiceCombobulator has a bug that does not combobulate the dice anymore when there's more than 3 players in the game, and my game has 4 players.
So what do I do? If I update, I update everything, swapping a bug for another; if I don't update, I keep having the previous bug. And if there's an update to FGU, or an update to a module, I am basically forced to update to the "new bug" (because when I update, everything updates).
Competitor FoundryVTT has an example of how to deal with updates separately, where in the initial screens I see all the Game Systems (rulesets) and I can update each one independently, all the Add-on modules (extensions) and each one can be updated independently, and the Software Update screen allows me to update the application itself. A similar structure for the FantasyGroundsUpdater would allow us to hold back from updating an extension when we know that a new bug has been introduced, keeping the working version. It does not solve all the issues of extensions that break, but it sure mitigates the problem a bit.

[Blackwolfe]

I too don't think there's a definitive solution to the issue - but there are things that could be done to mitigate the problem, partially.

Thank You Zeno, I too think there must be things that can be done to mitigate the problem, and yours is a good idea.

As to using mods, the mods -- I use mods to help the players and make the game run smoother and quicker (when everything is working),

and that's a better experience for MY PLAYERS, and bottom line, after 40 years of DM'ing that's My goal - To give the BEST experience to My Players I can.