Lighting/Visibility issues

[SilentRuin]

If a player logs in - and the hosts set their map token to invisible so they can sneak around - they can no longer even select their token to move. This was with a PC but I assume it is the same problem for NPC or other types of tokens that a player owns and should have control over (does when visible). This is a new bug as it used to work. The included campaign (or really any) can be used to duplicate this by logging in a player having host set his token with right mouse to always invisible - then they won't be able to select token - set it back to visible and they can. Again I assume this is a problem now for any owned token of a player.

Lighting can be turned on then off in the effects and any creature the effect showed when the light was on will remain visible when the light is off (most times). It gets even weirder when a light effect is set on host as it will not show as effect in client - nor will a LIGHT effect set by player client show in the host. Super weird stuff. Can also be done if you play with this simple campaign test.

Included for both of these is simple 5E campaign with one map and 2 characters in CT.

[Zacchaeus]

If the token was selected before you make it invisible then the player can still see the token, and can move it with the keyboard but not by dragging it. But if you remove focus on it then it disappears. I'm not sure if it's intended behaviour or not. I've always assumed that option was only for NPCs.

[SilentRuin]

If the token was selected before you make it invisible then the player can still see the token, and can move it with the keyboard but not by dragging it. But if you remove focus on it then it disappears. I'm not sure if it's intended behaviour or not. I've always assumed that option was only for NPCs.

Before if you owned the token - regardless of what type of token it was or the visibility state it was in - you had the ability to drag it (as that is standard way to move things and I've never actually tried movement with a keyboard only a mouse).

Plus losing functionality like that would really suck.

[pindercarl]

Before if you owned the token - regardless of what type of token it was or the visibility state it was in - you had the ability to drag it (as that is standard way to move things and I've never actually tried movement with a keyboard only a mouse).

Plus losing functionality like that would really suck.

Owned tokens should always be visible to the owner. I'll take a look at it.

[SilentRuin]

Owned tokens should always be visible to the owner. I'll take a look at it.

Thanks - I'm having tons of ownership issues right now with logged in PC CT entries not getting ownership - at least when logged in locally. However, this came about from a player (not local) in my game last night not being able to move so pretty sure either something has gone seriously wrong with PC CT entry logins not getting addholder assigned or - don't know what. But I'm being driven nuts by this in my own extension and so mentioning it in case that can you help you figure this. I have one campaign where my local PC CT login has a holder of SilentRuin and my client side of my extension works - and a lot of campaigns where the logged in PC CT client has no addholder (public) and of course is not considered DB.isOwner and when trying to set it DB data without checking that you get a failure - as you should.

[SilentRuin]

I had a player login and for sure the PC CT holder is not being assigned even when not the local login. But he did test this again and it turns out he can move the token (select it) if he clicks on the itty bitty effect icon on it or the thin health bar when invisible. And when visible he can click on anything in the token.

[SilentRuin]

Owned tokens should always be visible to the owner. I'll take a look at it.

Any chance I'll see this fix before Monday? I don't relish telling my invisible guys they have to pick the health bar to get their token selected in my game that evening. It's downright tiny - but not as tiny as the other thing they can select I guess - the widgets for effects on the token.

[pindercarl]

Any chance I'll see this fix before Monday? I don't relish telling my invisible guys they have to pick the health bar to get their token selected in my game that evening. It's downright tiny - but not as tiny as the other thing they can select I guess - the widgets for effects on the token.

New builds are usually pushed on Tuesdays.

[SilentRuin]

New builds are usually pushed on Tuesdays.

Only when they are not considered critical by SW :) Well I should be fine I suppose - the SW5E ship combat they are entering tomorrow has them all carried on the ship and invisible. But since end turn still selects the CT entry map token whose turn it is on in client (at least in my extension filled game - forget if that is FGU thing or mine) they should still be able to target. Only the pilot of the ship will need to move and he can select the health bar still to drag it around for now. I'll just be sure to inform them before the game.

[Moon Wizard]

Just curious, why are you setting tokens to always invisible at the lowest level? Why wouldn't tokens set to "invisible" be considered as non-visible, non-selectable by players? How can a GM hide player tokens completely without being able to set to invisible?

I'm thinking maybe the issue is that you are using the "always invisible" setting to mimic "invisibility"; which was not the intent of the "always invisible" flag for a token. It sounds more like the display is somewhat inconsistent at the moment (which should be tokens/widgets are all on/off and selectable or not, which is definitely an issue).

I would want to discuss with @pindercarl about the ramifications of any changes, as well as what the feature was originally designed for (i.e. hide tokens with always invisible token states from all player clients, period).

While I appreciate any thoughts you have on your particular usage needs; I'd also like you step back and think about overall long-term needs for potentially making player tokens actually "invisible" to all players, including the token "owner".

Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

Just curious, why are you setting tokens to always invisible at the lowest level? Why wouldn't tokens set to "invisible" be considered as non-visible, non-selectable by players? How can a GM hide player tokens completely without being able to set to invisible?

I'm thinking maybe the issue is that you are using the "always invisible" setting to mimic "invisibility"; which was not the intent of the "always invisible" flag for a token. It sounds more like the display is somewhat inconsistent at the moment (which should be tokens/widgets are all on/off and selectable or not, which is definitely an issue).

I would want to discuss with @pindercarl about the ramifications of any changes, as well as what the feature was originally designed for (i.e. hide tokens with always invisible token states from all player clients, period).

While I appreciate any thoughts you have on your particular usage needs; I'd also like you step back and think about overall long-term needs for potentially making player tokens actually "invisible" to all players, including the token "owner".

Regards,
JPG

Not really sure what your talking about here. If a map token from the CT is set manually to invisible - or using the CT to set it to invisible - or even my carrier setting to set it to invisible - it is all the same. Token is not visible.

An owned token is never "invisible" to its owner as they are the ones actually moving it around visible or not (visually to the other players etc.). Its how things work. Currently the bug I'm talking about is when these tokens are not visible they can only be selected by the health bar or widgets on the token. This is new and not good.

I have zero understanding about what you are talking about in terms of "always invisible" or "invisible" as their is only one setting - the token is seen or not seen - which has nothing to do with the controller needing to operate with it.

[Post edit: Out of curiosity - what use would it ever be to have an owner of a token (be it NPC, PC, or any other map token) not having it seen by them? You'd just make them not the owner if you wanted them not to see "their owned stuff" but I see no actual use for that. Or if there is it must be a very little used thing compared to the normal use of the token visibility to date. Talking about tectonic shifts in how you handle visibility in tokens seems radical indeed. As tokens seen by owners but not anyone else but the GM is a requirement IMHO - and how it used to function. Still does if you look at the health bar and widgets as places to select it - and of course its still seen even now with this bug. ]

[Zacchaeus]

I think what Moon Wizard is asking is why don't you just add the invisible effect to the PC rather than making their token actually invisible.

[SilentRuin]

Gist is this is a horrible mistake taking the ability (which we had) to have only owners see their tokens and noone else.

I worry that changes in FGU keep getting made that take more and more functionality away from the platform... to do what? I for sure don't understand the current "we know best" with no consultation of your user base and how they use it. I know for a fact I'm not the only one that lets their players go invisible and move around by setting their visibility setting.

Taking that away (among other things of late) keeps making FGU less capable than it was in the name of something. I look at the recent removal of CT global entry buttons in the name of "lag" where instead of making it solve 99.9% of the problem by limiting how many it would work with you simply took out the whole capability making it less useful that it was before.

If you keep changing things to take out things we could do before because you know best - then this is going to be a wonderful boon for the competition.

[SilentRuin]

I think what Moon Wizard is asking is why don't you just add the invisible effect to the PC rather than making their token actually invisible.

You'll have to explain what token setting this is in the code that makes the token visible to the player but not to the other players. As that's a new one for me. I'm only aware of the one.

[Zacchaeus]

You'll have to explain what token setting this is in the code that makes the token visible to the player but not to the other players. As that's a new one for me. I'm only aware of the one.

The token remains visible at all times to everyone. All that happens is you or the player creates an effect of 'invisible' in the actions tab and applies it to their character. This will automatically apply any advantage/disadvantage for attacks for and against that player.

I also don't think things are being taken away. As I think both pindercarl and Moon Wizard have pointed out this is likely a bug which will get fixed in due course.

[SilentRuin]

The token remains visible at all times to everyone. All that happens is you or the player creates an effect of 'invisible' in the actions tab and applies it to their character. This will automatically apply any advantage/disadvantage for attacks for and against that player.

I also don't think things are being taken away. As I think both pindercarl and Moon Wizard have pointed out this is likely a bug which will get fixed in due course.

Pindercal said it would be fixed - Moon Wizard said that they could even STILL effect the the token with the heal bar and widgets or see it at all was the problem. Telling me the token remains visible to all - is what I'm complaining about. We had the power to make it only visible and operable to the owner of the map token - now? Moon wizard said he thought it should never have even done that and that is the bug.

I can read his reply no other way - how are you reading that differently?

[Zacchaeus]

Well I read what Moon Wizard as saying was that if you made a token invisible then it was just that - invisible to all players; but not obviously to the DM. I think the issue might be that player tokens shouldn't get set to Always Invisible - and that might be the bug that needs to be addressed. In other words if this worked for you at some point then it shouldn't have - that's the bug. Having said that I've never used the always invisible thing for tokens, so I'm guessing as to what the correct intention was or is. If I had an NPC that was invisible I've just used the eye icon on the CT; or applied an invisible effect so that players could still target the creature.

[SilentRuin]

Well I read what Moon Wizard as saying was that if you made a token invisible then it was just that - invisible to all players; but not obviously to the DM. I think the issue might be that player tokens shouldn't get set to Always Invisible - and that might be the bug that needs to be addressed. In other words if this worked for you at some point then it shouldn't have - that's the bug. Having said that I've never used the always invisible thing for tokens, so I'm guessing as to what the correct intention was or is. If I had an NPC that was invisible I've just used the eye icon on the CT; or applied an invisible effect so that players could still target the creature.

Then you know that is a tectonic change of behavior with tokens that disable many uses many use that invisibility has been used for for years. You are saying - we used to have the ability for a map token (ANY map token stop centering on just PCs) to be visible only to owners when it was marked invisible. Always been this way. Many use it this way.

You guys coming along and saying you'll take the ability to have an owned token visible only to themselves and not other non owners except them GM - an ability - a powerful ability - we've had for years?

Screw this decent into "Father knows best" crap. Don't screw with functionality that has worked one way and is used that way without replacing that functionality so that its not lost.

Right now I'm hearing "you need this that we've always provided?". Too bad - the mood has struck us to change it. Based on complaints? No. Based on requests? No. Just because we know that making the app do less because we don't see a need for it is better.

Yes, I'm ticked off at this. I was ticked off that the group CT settings were removed before but didn't immediately complain though others did. But this?

This is a trend. And making the token not visible or operable - or having something new that does this in right mouse or token settings - is just so totally wrong that its a game changer for me personally.

[Zacchaeus]

Sorry, I'm confused now. You're original post was about PC tokens and if you set them to invisible then the player couldn't select or move the token (although the DM can still do so) and which I confirmed was the case; similarly any player controlled NPCs set to always invisible can't be controlled by the player (but again the DM can). As a DM I can set any NPC token to always invisible and it will be invisible to clients but I can still see and operate that token. So nothing has changed as far as that goes. As I say I've never set a player token to always invisible (except to test when I saw your initial post) so I don't know what the expected behaviour of doing that is.

I guess the best course of action is to wait and see what pindercarl and Moon Wizard come up with one way or another.

[SilentRuin]

Sorry, I'm confused now. You're original post was about PC tokens and if you set them to invisible then the player couldn't select or move the token (although the DM can still do so) and which I confirmed was the case; similarly any player controlled NPCs set to always invisible can't be controlled by the player (but again the DM can). As a DM I can set any NPC token to always invisible and it will be invisible to clients but I can still see and operate that token. So nothing has changed as far as that goes. As I say I've never set a player token to always invisible (except to test when I saw your initial post) so I don't know what the expected behaviour of doing that is.

I guess the best course of action is to wait and see what pindercarl and Moon Wizard come up with one way or another.



You're original post was about PC tokens and if you set them to invisible then the player couldn't select or move the token
With the caveat that you could always do this since I've been in the game - 3 years - and that the health bar and widgets could still be used for the owner of the map token to drag it around. You know setting players invisible so they could sneak around the others and nobody sees them. Or other non generic extension based things I use in my game every single session.


similarly any player controlled NPCs set to always invisible can't be controlled by the player
In who's world? Not mine. My players can control any faction - any NPC - even only NPCs that they want. Called extensions. But extensions don't change the basic engine abilities with tokens. Which are that an owned token is still seen and controllable by the client. For all the years I've been involved with FGU.

Pindercarl saw the problem - stated outright owned tokens should work - as they should - and it would be fixed.

Then Moon came in and said essentially - you know what? We've been always supporting this - but I don't see a need for it so lets not.

And no mention about how they plan to keep supporting that functionality we've had all these years.

This is not the first time. Its a trend of if we give you power to help you play the game - we can take it away on whim. No people asked this be done. No people requested it be done. In fact, I asked it be fixed to work the way it always had. And now?

Don't even try to defend it. Its wrong. I use this ability in every single session baring a few in the games I've been playing the last few years. But you don't use it? See no need for it? Lets take it away then.

I'm done here. This is just pissing me off further and I need to cool down.

[Moon Wizard]

Closing thread. Please keep things civil. Fix is in v4.3.7.

Regards,
JPG