True20 System (vs SW and C&C)?

[Answulf]

So, having just got back in to FG I have been looking at and reading a lot of reviews about SW, C&C and True20. All three look like good alternatives to D20 and they each seem to have different strengths and weaknesses. The one that I am having the most trouble getting an idea for is True20. From what I gather, they can basically be summarized in this way:

SW is action and combat oriented, C&C is "old school" oriented, and True20 is roleplaying oriented? I know that is an oversimplification, but for those of you who have tried them out - is that relatively accurate?

I also gather that of the three, SW is easier to run and the most popular with Fantasy Grounds because of the Digital Downloads product?

[Answulf]

Also, let me add a bit of my background so that you can provide me more accurate help in choosing a system:

I'm an old-school AD&D DM (can count the campaigns I was just a player in on one hand). I actually enjoy adventure preperation as much if not more than actually playing, so the "less prep" benefit of all three is not that big of a deal to me. I bought the three core D20 3.5 books but never got around to playing with them much. Since those are the only ones I have, I haven't really been exposed to the 3.5 rules overload that I know is out there with the bazillion other books. I am not daunted by the rules complexity of the core books and would probably be fine playing with them and sticking to them. However, I'm also a fan of simplification and streamlining and I'm not super interested in learning 3.5 over the next few months just in time for 4.0 to come out, so SW, C&C and True20 all appeal to me. Also, from the little FG D&D I have played I am somewhat aware of the issues with 3.5 combat slowness and the general slower pace of the game using FG, although I don't really think that is a drawback - just something to account for when designing a play session.

I am really only interested in the Fantasy genre (although I would like to run a mini-Paranoia game at some point - love that game!). My style leans towards the serious, goal-oriented, plot-driven adventures with an emphasis on problem-solving and roleplaying over combat. I enjoy a good scrap as much as the next guy, but try to include combat encounters only where they make sense and further the story - think mystery/suspense more than action/adventure.

So, all that said - I know that I could adjust accordingly, play and have a great time with any of the four systems. Given my interests, though, in your experience do you think one ruleset stands out as a slightly closer match for me than the others?

Thanks in advanace for your input!

[Kalan]

Bear in mind I am a little biased ;)

What you describe as far as style goes - is exactly the same as my own. I try to emphasize the RP over the combat. As for which system - I go Savage Worlds all the way, for several reasons:

1) Ease of play. The system itself is VERY quick, and easy to learn, and flexible enough to handle pretty dang near everything. That said - if you want a tonne of skills to handle every possible situation - look somewhere else. SW from the outset emphasizes "keeping the rules to a minimum, to let you focus on the style YOU want to play".

2) The system encourages RP. Through the use of "in game" rewards - called bennies - the system itself is designed to encourage the group to roleplay, and come up with cool ideas. These bennies can be used for a fair number of things, from recovering from that last wound to pull off the final master blow, or to re roll a bad die roll.

3) Friendly, knowledgeable support. They call the PEG boards "the friendliest place on the net", and for good reason. The guys at PEG, and the community that is built around their product lines, are amongst the most friendly, and knowledgeable people I have ever had the pleasure to work with. They really are that cool.

As your primary interest is in fantasy - there are a number of Toolkits available to help you get the most "fantasy" into your game. There has also been a new Fantasy setting released called Shaintar - which imho - is perhaps one of the best, freshest, most interesting "pure" fantasy settings I've seen in a LONG time.

As I mentioned above - if you are looking for a number crunchy, rule for every possible situation, skills to cover every thing - don't look to SW. If you want your combats to be meaningful, and epic in feel - you can't go wrong! As one of the lead developers of Savage Worlds (Clint Black) has said, "The only difference between a Legendary group and a Novice group is that the Novice group has to plan more". In the SW system - even an Orc can wipe out your party of Legendary people - if the dice fall right.

You can also run truly epic combats - with dozens and dozens of combatants - as easily as a combat with only a handful of participants.

I think I've covered about everything I can think of off hand. I'm not bashing C&C or True20 - cuz in all honesty, I've never really played either system, only read about them. So take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

Peace! And hope that helps :)

V

[Sigurd]

I'd have to say of the 3 systems mentioned I'd leave true20 for last. I find it sort of confusing and in need of a rethink. To me personally, it seems like a reaction to D20 rather than a fully thought out game on its own feet.



SW is fast and seems well thought out. Better abilities roll bigger dice. Initiative is settled with playing cards. It doesn't have D20's painstaking catalogue of improvements for your character. This is both good and bad. I think there have been more frequent publications for this of late.

C&C is like D20 basic edition. It looks pretty well thought out and very similar in structure - just paired down. It feels more considered than True20 to me.


I don't know if there is a True20 ruleset but I know you can get SW and C&C rulesets.


Of course it is very subjective.

[Elf]

I have played SW and True20 and of the two I would use SW for what you describe. Kalan did nail it though when he said if you want a skill or rule to cover every situation than SW is not for you. I cannot speak for C&C as I have not tried it yet although I am sure I will at some point.

[Astinus]

Like you, Ansbach, I'm an old school AD&D DM. I bought the 3.5 books and wasn't enthused by them, and now I'm running a C&C campaign with all the guys I played AD&D with in high school almost 20 years ago.

The key strength of C&C, for mine, is its flexibility. We use the character classes, races, SIEGE engine and other rules from C&C, but we use the spells and magic items from the SRD. Reason I do that, is I'm DMing Pathfinder, and I don't want to have to convert all the NPC spells to C&C. But the thing is, the SRD spells fit seamlessly with C&C. Actually, Pathfinder fits. I don't do any conversion, other than translating DC checks into the SIEGE engine, which takes less than a second.

We've also got all the old AD&D books, and I'm using any monsters/magic items/spells out of there. It all just fits together. In fact, if someone wanted to play a character class from the AD&D books, they could. You can play old school Tomb of Horrors, or new stuff like Pathfinder, all with C&C.

And all my guys are rules lite. They love the game, but don't read religiously. They don't even notice that they're playing C&C. They just think they're playing D&D. There's also a very active, helpful community for C&C as well.

[Griogre]

So you know where I’m coming from, I run my fantasy games in Core 3.5 + Player Handbook II and any monsters I feel are cool. D&D 3.x does not excite me the way D&D and AD&D did. It seems overly complex for the benefit and increasingly bland and sadly generic in the spell and magic item areas. The core books are largely balanced up to about 10th level where the fighters start running out of unique feats to take.

It's been a while since I read True20 but I have to agree I would prefer C&C over it. I've been running since the mid 70's and C&C feels better than True20 to me. If 4th edition is a bust I will switch over to running C&C myself.

Savage Worlds is OK. I use it to run a Pirates of the Spanish Main game and like it for that game. I personally would not use it to run a D&D game. Mostly because I think the magic system is poor. Its magic systems got a Champions powers type system where most spells are really the same mechanic - it just looks different. The complexity of the system is pretty close to core D&D 3.x other than it has slightly simpler combat rules.

The good thing is you don’t have to take my or anyone else word on things. You have the 3.x books and both Savage Worlds and C&C have quick start rules for free:

C&C: https://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/ccqs.html
SW: https://www.peginc.com/archives/savage-worlds/test-drive-rules/