Map issue with LOS shadows where they should not be

[SilentRuin]

Place two square doors side by side - I can now not get a shadow between them to go away (was not like this - still is not like this in older maps I made "not today"). 100% reproducible.

Also came up in app when wall line was already present then deleted it while a token was showing blocked LOS and left over shadow could not get rid of. Not easy to reproduce though.

No extensions. EXTENSIONS = RISK!

[SilentRuin]

Turns out this has always been this way and the way I worked around it in past is to never use double doors - only single. Still to me, an issue.

[jharp]

I believe this is the bug of "coincident" lines. No LoS definition can overlap any other LoS definition except at a single point. If they share more than one point then there is the possibility of this bug (not always).

They are working on a new LoS engine that is supposed to eliminate this issue.

Jason

[SilentRuin]

I believe this is the bug of "coincident" lines. No LoS definition can overlap any other LoS definition except at a single point. If they share more than one point then there is the possibility of this bug (not always).

They are working on a new LoS engine that is supposed to eliminate this issue.

Jason

Excellent! For now I guess my hard and fast rule will be - NEVER create a door next to a single wall line - need same width as door or bogus door shadows will appear. NEVER create a door next to another door as both sides of the door view will always get a shadow anomaly unless facing it dead on center.

[Moon Wizard]

This is not a bug. This is how "door" and "terrain" occluders are designed to work (see into, but not through; unless opened).

Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

Well shadow aberrations - over intelligent line trimming (which creates more aberrations) seems to be not good to me. Declaring it as "not a bug" I assume means won't be fixed. Your call. For sure I have do some pretty strange and frustrating stuff to make a shadow aberration free map but will put a "Did you know..." video on how I have to make my maps to do this currently anyway.

At least I know I have to stick with my workarounds - as frustrating as they are.

[Moon Wizard]

It's not a shadow aberration if door occluders were always specifically see into, not through. Using a single door occluder for the double door resolves this without any extra shadows that you are worried about.

Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

It's not a shadow aberration if door occluders were always specifically see into, not through. Using a single door occluder for the double door resolves this without any extra shadows that you are worried about.

Regards,
JPG

As I said it would. Above. I have to find out all the "Tricks" to make things work the way I want them to. Programmatically, its not a bug - I get it. Visually... to me... it is. And that is NOT the only thing I have to do to make things visually smooth in "shadow land". Just FYI. Working on video that will be out later today showing this in the "Did you know..." series of them I'm putting out. Not how to do FGU raw stuff... how I do my stuff in my worlds. If anyone cares - still fun to make them.

[ddavison]

I believe this is the bug of "coincident" lines. No LoS definition can overlap any other LoS definition except at a single point. If they share more than one point then there is the possibility of this bug (not always).

They are working on a new LoS engine that is supposed to eliminate this issue.

Jason

I want to manage expectations on this. After careful consideration, I decided to pull Carl from work on the new LOS engine changes. We were spending a very large amount of development time on this one issue and while we would occasionally fix one issue, another would crop up as a result. The fixes & root causes for the some of the current aberrations are not currently known. I have moved Carl to a separate project that is crucial for us to complete and I hope that some time away from the LOS issues will allow us to return to it with a fresh set of eyes.

Please keep a log of these and feel free to continue to report them as they come up in your testing and usage. For LOS bugs present in current content, we have found that these can also be redesigned to eliminate the bad effect entirely. Yes, that means we are sweeping the issue under the rug a bit, but it's a temporary necessity so that we can make progress in other areas that need to be completed.

[jharp]

I'm just shocked by the idea that you have a product that says it has LoS but really it is a product that has LoS but only if you don't run across a random issue that exposes a portion of the map you are on. So when I have customer buy a map from me and they get to a point where light bleeds thru what should I do? Tell them that SW says its rare and just live with it?

I just don't know what to say here.... *grumble grumble*

Jason

[MrDDT]

I've seen this on another product in the forge too.

Grim Press's Artic Maps II

So it has to be more common than "rare" IMO.
55729

[SilentRuin]

I want to manage expectations on this. After careful consideration, I decided to pull Carl from work on the new LOS engine changes. We were spending a very large amount of development time on this one issue and while we would occasionally fix one issue, another would crop up as a result. The fixes & root causes for the some of the current aberrations are not currently known. I have moved Carl to a separate project that is crucial for us to complete and I hope that some time away from the LOS issues will allow us to return to it with a fresh set of eyes.

Please keep a log of these and feel free to continue to report them as they come up in your testing and usage. For LOS bugs present in current content, we have found that these can also be redesigned to eliminate the bad effect entirely. Yes, that means we are sweeping the issue under the rug a bit, but it's a temporary necessity so that we can make progress in other areas that need to be completed.

I have nothing I can't work around (per the "Did you know..." videos I've put out recently) for LOS. The only issues I'm looking to be fixed are in another thread concerning the distance from token calculations bugs. (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?76227-A-very-magical-dragon!-(targeting-distance-errors-in-raw-FGU))

[jharp]

SilentRuin,

I certainly agree that you can work around the bugs. However, that is a lot more testing to find the random bugs so you can employ a work around. The bleed thru MrDDT showed is fixable if you move the points correctly but knowing that the bug exists is over half the battle. I don't like the idea of having my customers report the bugs (after they already experienced bleedthru). However, I also know I won't find them all. So at the end of the day I'm at the mercy of the quality of the LoS in FGU.

Jason

[SilentRuin]

SilentRuin,

I certainly agree that you can work around the bugs. However, that is a lot more testing to find the random bugs so you can employ a work around. The bleed thru MrDDT showed is fixable if you move the points correctly but knowing that the bug exists is over half the battle. I don't like the idea of having my customers report the bugs (after they already experienced bleedthru). However, I also know I won't find them all. So at the end of the day I'm at the mercy of the quality of the LoS in FGU.

Jason

I choose what battles I can fight and win and those I can't I make happen myself (workarounds or extensions). Almost any solution I'm looking for is "by Monday's game" so I'm not waiting for the "mercy of quality" from anything. It is what it is and I am not one to sit an wait for an FGU fix before game day. LOS has issues.

It is known.

Given the limited resources they have - and the fact this is barely on my radar for game days - its not really a concern for me. I noted it - they responded they knew about it - but had other things to do with their limited time.

I understand. I'm more concerned about the stuff I mentioned. So feel free to voice your opinions about this being a major concern for you. It's just not for me.

[ddavison]

This is definitely a bug on our end. I don't expect you to try to hide that fact. This is just a bug that we haven't been able to resolve yet and there happens to be a work-around that allows it to be fixed -- often on the fly by users. If it appears within any of our official products, we can do the work-around ourselves and post a fix for that occurrence that will be updated in the patch system. We have spent several weeks of development trying to track down and fix this and a few other issues and we are not any closer to a solution.

1. What you have defined for LOS should work
2. In some cases, it does not work
3. It is possible to redo the LOS in a slightly different way that will work and this is our current solution

It is repeatable and well documented. That is normally good enough to be able to resolve it. We just haven't been able to yet. Our primary dev who fixes these things is very good but has been unable to resolve this bug despite investing a lot of time on it. I can keep having him look into it to the exclusion of some other very cool and important features that we need to get done, or I can give him some time off for this issue and we can circle back to it later and hopefully fix it then. If I can get another resource freed up, I may be able to resolve it with another dev who can come in with a fresh set of eyes.

[LordEntrails]

From my one user perspective; it's troublesome, annoying, but manageable. I don't personally see it as the highest priority item to be worked on.