Dragonlance - Shadow of the Dragon Queen

[dannywonderful]

I've just loaded up the new Dragonlance module and I'm aghast at the conversion. The very first combat encounter - during the preludes section - has no encounter set up and no loot parcel either. So far every map I can see has the GM version rather than the player version. It mentions how to use the flow chart and then as far as I can see it does not include the flow chart.

Is this how Fantasy Grounds modules will be released from now on? I'm finding so many missing things and poorly done entries that I'm looking at hours and hours of work to get this in a playable state.

[Trenloe]

So far every map I can see has the GM version rather than the player version.
I don't have the product, but looking at the screenshots in the store page - is there a GM layer in the image which is only visible to the GM? This is being done more and more in recent module conversions - removing the need for two different maps (GM and player) and allowing GM info to be visible only to the GM on the map used for encounters.

[dannywonderful]

No, the images used are the GM versions with the labels all over them. Even the map of Vogler has all the locations labelled when the party are visiting the place for the first time. There are player versions of every map, I have them via D&D Beyond, so I'm now faced with having to import and then do the LoS on every map as well as re-setting all the encounters before I can even think of letting my players see any of this.

I'm finding duplicate links, random speach bubbles when they should be title headings, missing items and various other things. This is an appalling conversion.

[ddavison]

Please post some screenshots of what you are seeing that looks bad. The room labels are shown to players, but all GM only stuff is hidden on GM only layers. Players won’t see those.

[ddavison]

Chapter 2 - Fallen Caravan was fixed to add the encounters and the loot parcel. The heading formatting for that section was also corrected.

The maps are as they were provided to us by Wizards of the Coast. We do not have access to layered maps with room #s or labels not on them -- other than a few maps where there was secret information, and on the poster map. Those were done with multiple layers and hidden layers marked as GM only.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?76044-Dragonlance-Shadow-of-the-Dragon-Queen-Bug-List-and-Fixes&p=670510#post670510

If D&D Beyond was provided with layered maps without the room and location labels, you can import those and copy it to a layer just above the one in the module. If you resize it properly, it will retain the LOS definitions for maps that contain LOS.

I would say that the City of Vogler locations are very generic locations in a small town. There is no LOS and no encounters in the town. It would be reasonable to assume that locations would be easily known even to outsiders as they walk around. The names are noteworthy items like Wharf, Market, River Gate, Mayor's Home, etc.

[dannywonderful]

If you did not get the player versions of the maps then why did you not query this with WotC? They are obviously available to other platforms.

I have downloaded the latest patch, but I am unable to show you any of the problems I have with the module because now when I attempt to open the GM reference manual all I get is this:

55364

[ddavison]

Oops. Apologies for this. The campaign db.xml was pushed by accident. Please try running another update. It should be resolved.

For the images, we don't know what other platforms get. In the case of D&D Beyond, they are now fully owned by Wizards of the Coast and one and the same. We get InDesign files for everything along with PSD files for all images. The map styles frequently change from one module to the next in D&D. Some of them are full-color and some of them are lower details. As a GM for several decades, I would not think that the map of Vogler would need a separate player map. Room #s displayed in rooms was a bit curious to me, but appeared to be the style they were now going with for this module. Roll20 doesn't show many maps in their product page, but they also show the Vogler map with labels. Once you get the newest version of the module and you can share with us differences you are seeing between the D&D Beyond versions of maps and the ones we are using, we can check with WOTC to see if we can gain those. To properly set expectations, please be aware that most of WOTC is closed down for the holiday starting this week.

[dannywonderful]

The module is working again now.

I do know that Wizards have bought D&D Beyond and I recognise that some things will be exclusive to that platform, such as the Monstrous Compendium entries this week. However, I can't believe that player versions of the maps in an official module release will be gated behind the D&D beyond platform. That would be extremely consumer unfriendly.

Some examples of the images/maps you are missing are these:

Wheelwatch Outpost - the party are tasked with observing then infiltrating an outpost to locate the gate controls and open the gates. This is a scenario I might want the Rogue/Scout to shine or possibly a Wizard with a familiar to feel useful. Instead the image provided has GATE CONTROLS and two arrows pointing to them in big letters.

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The image marked as "Player Version" is as below.

55375

Sunward Fortress - the players enter a large cavern and see a mysterious object unlike anything they have seen before. Except it's clearly labelled what it is on the map.

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The image we don't have is below.

55377

I have a total of 23 player versions of the maps, but this forum will not allow me to post them all in this post. Some are more frustrating than others as some are just images with numbers on them versus the player versions without any numbers or labels.

[Valyar]

I second the issue with the labels - Player Maps should not have the labels as it gives a lot of meta information to players.

[mikemuck1]

Is the accompanying campaign not loaded into "story" like every other pre-made I have bought from FG? 5538455385 I have the module loaded.

[redba]

Is the accompanying campaign not loaded into "story" like every other pre-made I have bought from FG? 5538455385 I have the module loaded.

Hi @mikemuck1 as for the latest releases now you have only the Reference Manual and no more the Story Entries ... but now the Reference Manual is fully UNLOCKED so you can also use the content for your game (copy and paste text, use images and so on)..

[dannywonderful]

It looks like you can only select the new Lunar Sorcerer subclass if you create your character via the character wizard and not if you create your character manually. Is this by design, or an oversight?

[Zacchaeus]

It looks like you can only select the new Lunar Sorcerer subclass if you create your character via the character wizard and not if you create your character manually. Is this by design, or an oversight?

This is working for me. You do have to drag in the sorcerer class from another source (like the PHB) in order for the archetype to show up.

[Eru the One]

I tried with both modules and was only able to create manually with the dragonlance players module open, the DM ones does not have any of chapter 1.

[Zacchaeus]

I tried with both modules and was only able to create manually with the dragonlance players module open, the DM ones does not have any of chapter 1.

Yes, all player facing data is in the players module. No player material will be in the DM module - as standard.

[Moon Wizard]

As @Zaccahaeus mentioned, class specializations are not dragged directly to the PC. They are just sub-records that are part of the specialization choices that PCs get according to their class level up choices. Also, all character options in all the 5E modules are included in the player module of each product.

Regards,
JPG

[ddavison]

I just pushed an update that uses all the newer maps that WOTC has available from D&D Beyond. The image has layers with "Tags" that you can change the visibility on per layer.

[dannywonderful]

I just pushed an update that uses all the newer maps that WOTC has available from D&D Beyond. The image has layers with "Tags" that you can change the visibility on per layer.

Thank you! The maps are so much better now.

Can I ask what the intention is with the red wall you've placed over the "Fray" parts of the maps? They are easy enough to click open, but I read these parts as traversable, albeit at reduced movement and the potential to face harm from various battlefield hazards.

[mikemuck1]

Hi @mikemuck1 as for the latest releases now you have only the Reference Manual and no more the Story Entries ... but now the Reference Manual is fully UNLOCKED so you can also use the content for your game (copy and paste text, use images and so on)..

This seems lazy. I pay for the convenience on FG.

[Zacchaeus]

This seems lazy. I pay for the convenience on FG.

Can you expand on this? Genuinely interested in feedback here since this is a new way of doing things but may not be set in stone. Story entries have been normal to this point because reference pages lacked some flexibility. However with the ability to now edit reference manual entries; add new images, add framed text in various ways; in addition to doing everything a story entry can do, reference pages are leaving story entries behind. So it seems reasonable to drop story entries and move over to reference pages.

As I say not set in stone; so your reasons as to why it is lazy and inconvenient would be valuable.

[mikemuck1]

From a DM's perspective (at least mine) its much easier to make new story entries/add to story entries to streamline the process and prep. Maybe I'm just not adjusting to the new way of doing it through the reference manual but I prefer to have the entries in the story functionality.

[Zacchaeus]

Have a look at video twenty six here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?55797-How-do-I-in-Unity

You can add a new reference page by unlocking the index in the right hand side of the reference. See the video for how to add material to that new page. You can then move that page if you want. You can also edit existing entries by unlocking the page in the right hand side. See how you get on.

One other thing to note is that you can still add your own story entries; you aren't bound to creating new reference pages. You could then link those to reference pages if you wanted to. Also you can copy paste from a story into a new reference page and it will retain all of the formatting etc in your story.

[ddavison]

Some things you can do with a reference manual entry that you can't do with Story entries:
Organize into Chapters and Sub-Chapters
Re-order entries and chapters in ways other than alphabetically by title
Embed images that are able to be opened by clicking them
Assign a decorative frame around a text section
Re-organize Text sections
Navigate to the index, previous, and next pages within the outline
Show or hide the Table of Contents
Use 2-column text layout if you want
Use a picture in one column and text in the other column (reversible)


Both Story elements and Refence Manual entries recently added copy and paste of formatted text. You can also move content to new chapters or sub-chapters. You can also do this with Story groups, but the ref manual method is more intuitive. Other than that, you can do everything with reference manual pages that you can with story entries. You can link them to maps, link them to each other, pop out pages and/or put them on hotkey bars, etc.

Limitations with reference manual pages:

You currently don't have a button on the side to view them. You have to access them through the Library screen for the module they are assigned to -- or with the Builder from that screen.
There is a larger minimum height and width for story entries

[Valyar]

You can drag the reference manual to the hotbar and use the shortcut keys to open them. Very convenient.

[LordEntrails]

in addition to doing everything a story entry can do,...



Both Story elements and Refence Manual entries recently added copy and paste of formatted text. You can also move content to new chapters or sub-chapters. You can also do this with Story groups, but the ref manual method is more intuitive. Other than that, you can do everything with reference manual pages that you can with story entries. You can link them to maps, link them to each other, pop out pages and/or put them on hotkey bars, etc.

Limitations with reference manual pages:

You currently don't have a button on the side to view them. You have to access them through the Library screen for the module they are assigned to -- or with the Builder from that screen.
There is a larger minimum height and width for story entries


Sorry I haven't test/explored this, but I thought elsewhere someone posted a list of (to them, and to me) important things Ref manuals could not yet do. The ones I remember are/were:
- copy entire ref manual pages
- revert changes on single ref manual pages

And then one thing I know I do regularly with story pages and have no idea if it works with Ref Man pages; in a development campaign, copy and change a story (in this case, Ref Man page) and then export it. This way I can make changes to a module and export it to a module for use in my play campaign(s). Can I do this, or similar, with a Ref Man page?

[Zacchaeus]

You can copy reference manual pages either to another ref page or to a story (via copy paste). You can’t revert changes on a single ref page. As with anything you can’t export material in a module but you can export anything created in a campaign. Creating a new page in a ref manual should be exportable (I have not tested that so I could be wrong).

[Artrem]

Can you expand on this? Genuinely interested in feedback here since this is a new way of doing things but may not be set in stone. Story entries have been normal to this point because reference pages lacked some flexibility. However with the ability to now edit reference manual entries; add new images, add framed text in various ways; in addition to doing everything a story entry can do, reference pages are leaving story entries behind. So it seems reasonable to drop story entries and move over to reference pages.

As I say not set in stone; so your reasons as to why it is lazy and inconvenient would be valuable.

Zacchaeus, I understand the question wasn't to me specifically, but since you asked for feedback, I just wanted to give a few thoughts.

First off, after reading this post and going back to the module this change is interesting to me and with any change it will take some time to figure out and become more accustom to the change. That being said, when you've done the same thing for over a decade, change can be tough and scary. If the essential functionality is the same and/or better, then I am all for it.

This change did come as a surprise to me and was unexpected when I opened up the module. I try to keep up with the updates at fantasy grounds as it is my only VTT that I have used but sometimes a forum post may slip by or I may not see one of video's created. When I opened up the module I had the same thoughts, "Where are all the entries?" I also wondered if it was corrupted or something had happened. So, I went to the forums to look and see if anyone else had issues.

Since I have read a couple of forum posts about the change, in general the change looks great to me. I love that the pins are still put on maps that can still open up windows related to that pin, I love that there are layers that are GM only with labels on map/etc. I didn't think to look to see if they were GM only until I read this and 'unlocked' the image to see they were visible to GM only. It's really convenient to have it all on one map but players map only shows players basic map without labels and secret doors (great example is Sublevels of Flying Citadel map).

My suggestion would be some sort of communication to those grognards like myself that there was a change in module design as well as either as brief sentence in store that new updated method of module design, specific forum post about new change in townhall section about change in design of adventure modules and/or tips and tricks, or even a brief youtube video to show what was done differently in this module creation vs others (love FG short vids discussing changes, etc). Granted a search I could find this post, but this is a big change to those that have used 5E adventures from the FG store in the past. This may help decrease some of the surprise about the change that occurred. If this was already done, please help guide me there as I always learn something new about FG when I review those posts/videos.

As with any change, it's surprising, but most times it's for the better. Thanks for the time reading this and hopefully suggestions may help others not be as surprised as I was when I opened this module. If there was announcements or videos discussing these changes before this message, again please point me in the direction.

Thanks,
Artrem

[Zacchaeus]

Thanks for the feedback; it is much appreciated.

It did come as a surprise to me as well, although it had been talked about for some time. It's only really now that it has become possible to create an adventure in Fantasy Grounds using only the reference manual. Doug has this habit of doing things 'off piste' without telling anyone - just to see what the reaction is and so far the reaction has been positive - at least from the forum posts and comments on Discord that I've seen.

[LordEntrails]

My suggestion would be some sort of communication to those grognards like myself that there was a change in module design as well as either as brief sentence in store that new updated method of module design, specific forum post about new change in townhall section about change in design of adventure modules and/or tips and tricks, or even a brief youtube video to show what was done differently in this module creation vs others (love FG short vids discussing changes, etc). Granted a search I could find this post, but this is a big change to those that have used 5E adventures from the FG store in the past. This may help decrease some of the surprise about the change that occurred. If this was already done, please help guide me there as I always learn something new about FG when I review those posts/videos.
To this point, I think their should be a story entry, the first one, that explains this change. Lots of people don't come to the forums, don't watch the videos, and just expect things to keep working they way they have been for years. A quick story entry that tells users this would be the most effective, imo, way to communicate to the most number of users. i.e. for those of us used to the old way, we are going to look in stories first, having a story telling us the new way would be sure to educate us.

[esmdev]

To this point, I think their should be a story entry, the first one, that explains this change. Lots of people don't come to the forums, don't watch the videos, and just expect things to keep working they way they have been for years. A quick story entry that tells users this would be the most effective, imo, way to communicate to the most number of users. i.e. for those of us used to the old way, we are going to look in stories first, having a story telling us the new way would be sure to educate us.

I agree. A simple story entry that explains the move and perhaps provides some information about the new functionality and maybe a link that opens it up. There are so many search engine results that hit old classic information, the old YouTube tutorials often come up before newer, etc., that people are led to the story entries and not finding them can be disconcerting. The fact that some modules do have story entries and some don't also leads to confusion.

When testing and packaging new modules Smiteworks could easily add a prefab template single story entry to all the new releases that points to the reference manual and provides a simple explanation.

[Artrem]

To this point, I think their should be a story entry, the first one, that explains this change. Lots of people don't come to the forums, don't watch the videos, and just expect things to keep working they way they have been for years. A quick story entry that tells users this would be the most effective, imo, way to communicate to the most number of users. i.e. for those of us used to the old way, we are going to look in stories first, having a story telling us the new way would be sure to educate us.

Agree as well, perfect way to communicate the change.

[Zacchaeus]

A single story entry sounds good.

I generally include a story entry on 'How to use this module in Fantasy Grounds'. However judging by the questions I get about certain modules not a lot of people read that particular entry. However if there's only one then it'll probably get read.

I also agree that a forum post; or a mention in the store description won't hit many users either. Since I use the forum all the time I forget that many don't even know it exists beyond registering an account.

[ddavison]

Thanks guys. This was also a suggestion of Derek from our Customer Support team. I will look at putting that in for an update next week. I might tie it in with a video that I can link from the story entry as well.

[Azaran]

Thanks guys. This was also a suggestion of Derek from our Customer Support team. I will look at putting that in for an update next week. I might tie it in with a video that I can link from the story entry as well.

Thanks Doug. I was just getting started with Dragonlance and the same questions came to my mind. The story section explaining how to use would be a great thing and could be standard across all new adventure modules.

[Turbiales]

From a DM's perspective (at least mine) its much easier to make new story entries/add to story entries to streamline the process and prep. Maybe I'm just not adjusting to the new way of doing it through the reference manual but I prefer to have the entries in the story functionality.

Completely agree, I'm so accustomed after all the years I have used FG that I create my own Story entries in my own Modules.

Use of the reference mannual directly is not a dissaster but it needs a rework in the IU to highlight the functionality, a direct button, for example.

[Dax Doomslayer]

Completely agree, I'm so accustomed after all the years I have used FG that I create my own Story entries in my own Modules.

Use of the reference mannual directly is not a dissaster but it needs a rework in the IU to highlight the functionality, a direct button, for example.

I agree with this. It may be 'you can't teach an old dog' type of thing (and probably is) but I really dislike the way the adventure modules are done using the reference manual vs. story entries and have had a hard time adjusting to it. Out of curiosity, was there an issue/outcry against the use of story entries?

[Zacchaeus]

I agree with this. It may be 'you can't teach an old dog' type of thing (and probably is) but I really dislike the way the adventure modules are done using the reference manual vs. story entries and have had a hard time adjusting to it. Out of curiosity, was there an issue/outcry against the use of story entries?

No, but since we are able to create reference manuals inside of FGU there has been a bit of a debate as to the need for story entries since developing both story and reference is time consuming. Reference manuals are easier to index and search; they can contain graphics and sidebars and overall look nicer as well as doing everything a story entry does. I’m sure that there will be further adjustments to the UI in future, such as a button in the right hand menu and the ability to resize reference pages. Adding in just those two features really would make story entries obsolete.