FGU conflicting with Discord Bot

[moostik]

Don't get me wrong, I like some of the features in FGU really a lot.

The problem I'm having is this:
I can run a server, locally or cloud, preparing the next session.... for days wiyhout closing it, without restarting it, without any issues.
I usually complete my work, close FGU, and update FGU on the same day I'm about to run session.
Then, as soon as people are connected and I'm displaying a map, I get freezes. No crash message or anything, just a window whiteout, FGU is unresponsive, and I have to kill FGU and restart it.
This happens several times every session, most frequently while using the combat tracker.
Every update either makes it slightly better or slightly worse.
Having sunk an enormous amount of time into this, and a fair amount of cash, I am hesitant to switch to another VTT but I also can't keep using it in its current state, the campaign would die.
Nobody are enjoying these game sessions.Half the time is spent on frustration over things not working.

If I am going to try to resolve this, where do I start? It doesn't seem to be a widespread problem?

System:
Windows 10 22H2
Intel i9 11th gen
32gb DDR4
Nvidia Gforce RTX 3070

Campaign:
Rolemaster Classic
All avaliable RMC modules
Some added custom modules, but the game crashes even if those are not loaded.

[Nylanfs]

and update FGU on the same day I'm about to run session.

Umm, don't do that. Smiteworks and almost everyone here will tell you to NOT (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75902-Release-Updates-for-November-22nd-2022&p=669212&viewfull=1#post669212) do that.

This sounds like some of your extensions might need updated especially if they aren't in the Forge (or are old and no longer maintained).

[bmos]

As soon as people are connected and I'm displaying a map, I get freezes. No crash message or anything, just a window whiteout, FGU is unresponsive, and I have to kill FGU and restart it.
This happens several times every session, most frequently while using the combat tracker.When this happens, how long have you waited to see if it would clear? Most of the comparatively intense stuff FGU does isn't taking advantage of your GPU acceleration or multi-core CPU. Back when I was running a bunch of games (supposedly it's faster nowadays) I would see hangups for around a minute on some actions that involved long lists.

[LordEntrails]

Sounds like you have bandwidth issues. How big are the images and modes you are sharing? How .any players do you have? What is your upload (not download) speed? Does this happen when only 1 player connects?

[damned]

What is the size of your campaign folder for this campaign?
If you start a new RMC campaign and open your normal modules and load an encounter and get someone to connect do you get the same issue?
When a player is connecting for the first time I think it is pretty normal for your session to freeze for a few seconds at least.
After that is should generally be OK.

[Trenloe]

Then, as soon as people are connected and I'm displaying a map, I get freezes. No crash message or anything, just a window whiteout, FGU is unresponsive, and I have to kill FGU and restart it.
This happens several times every session, most frequently while using the combat tracker.
How big are the maps (width x height pixel resolution)?
What map features do you have enabled? LoS? Lighting? Map effects?
How many entries do you have in the combat tracker?

[jharp]

The FGU network code does need some TLC.

Jason

[Trenloe]

And also check on your GPU usage - if it's high, maybe use of the /vsync command might help - see here for more information: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/1638006786/Reducing+GPU+Usage

[JohnD]

Rolemaster is one of the rulesets that I think place the heaviest load on FG because of all the tables being integral to pretty well everything you do in a game. It's right up there, perhaps (perhaps not) a step below the D&D Classics ruleset in terms of the stuff going on in the background for most rolls.

After several years of frustration with not being able to get FGU to perform at a level I considered to be baseline acceptable when running what is a normal game for me I bit the bullet and went out earlier this year and bought a laptop that is similar to what the OP has posted - I added more ram - up to 48 gb based on my experience with FGU - and I think it has made a difference. A "normal" game for me is 8+ PCs and 2x to 3x that NPC/enemies in combat (FWIW FGC handled this and more just fine).

This system can run a FPS like Escape from Tarkov on full graphics and have horsepower left to spare, yet FGU with LoS, a few ambient lights and one token with a light spell, another with a lantern and a 3rd with a torch seems to place a heavier load, especially if the map is "big" and the CT is "well populated". There has only been one map this new laptop struggled with and it is quite large and I had tokens spread out all over the place.

I like using FGU to it's fullest capacity to run and realize my game scenarios, so suggestions like minimizing CT population only works if you aren't in a situation where logically you would have "a lot" of actors in there.

If there are a lot of light sources, I want to have them, not hand wave and engage in half measures - as soon as you provide things like lighting and LoS, they aren't half measure type things in my opinion, so if I'm using them, I'm using them... not using two and hand waving the rest because FGU chuggs. Personally that approach doesn't work for me.

Several things I do before each game:

1. Reboot. Not a restart but a complete shut down, walk away for a few minutes and then start up again. Seems to make a difference (anecdotal).
2. Load FGU 30 minutes or so before game time and let everyone know it's up and waiting for them to connect. This helps avoid 8+ people connecting at once and bogging things down, which sometimes seems to have carry over impacts for the rest of the session (anecdotal).
2. Put an effect on each PC like VISMAX: x where x is the distance you want the token to have visibility out to, depending on your LoS and lighting effects.

I think personally this VISMAX effect has made a big difference. I don't know programming but I suspect that FGU normally calculates vision on each and every token on a map, out as far as possible until hitting the end of the map or intervening LoS blocks, and sends that data back and forth between every token on the map or in the CT, even if say 120' of 140' of that data is essentially "darkness - can't see". I could be wrong about that, but VISMAX has made a big difference for me. Personally I use x=75 for humans and people without special sight and x=90 or 120 for those with darkvision, infravision, etc.... You might think that this isn't very realistic, but in dungeons how often does someone really need more than say 75 feet of vision when torches are half that and lanterns a little more than half... its an accommodation I personally can live with compared to the alternatives.

Hope this gives some ideas/perspective to the OP.

[sirkerry]

2. Put an effect on each PC like VISMAX: x where x is the distance you want the token to have visibility out to, depending on your LoS and lighting effects.

I think personally this VISMAX effect has made a big difference. I don't know programming but I suspect that FGU normally calculates vision on each and every token on a map, out as far as possible until hitting the end of the map or intervening LoS blocks, and sends that data back and forth between every token on the map or in the CT, even if say 120' of 140' of that data is essentially "darkness - can't see". I could be wrong about that, but VISMAX has made a big difference for me. Personally I use x=75 for humans and people without special sight and x=90 or 120 for those with darkvision, infravision, etc.... You might think that this isn't very realistic, but in dungeons how often does someone really need more than say 75 feet of vision when torches are half that and lanterns a little more than half... its an accommodation I personally can live with compared to the alternatives.

Hope this gives some ideas/perspective to the OP.

Not the OP, but that VISMAX effect on tokens idea is awesome, I'm so going to try that my next game.

[damned]

1. Reboot. Not a restart but a complete shut down, walk away for a few minutes and then start up again. Seems to make a difference (anecdotal).

Unless you have changed your Windows reboot settings from default Restart is the better option.

Shutdown closes all the programs and then puts the computer into Hibernation mode. It uses very little power but it hasnt actually restarted the OS.

[LordEntrails]

Unless you have changed your Windows reboot settings from default Restart is the better option.

Shutdown closes all the programs and then puts the computer into Hibernation mode. It uses very little power but it hasnt actually restarted the OS.
Thx for that, it explains the behavior I've been seeing with my new Win 11 laptop.

[moostik]

Umm, don't do that. Smiteworks and almost everyone here will tell you to NOT (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75902-Release-Updates-for-November-22nd-2022&p=669212&viewfull=1#post669212) do that.

This sounds like some of your extensions might need updated especially if they aren't in the Forge (or are old and no longer maintained).



Not updating does not prevernt the game from crashing in the exact same way.
I run 2 extensions, one is Shops https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?59581-Shops (purchased from DM's Guild)
The other one is Universal Module extension (forge) https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/266/view

I have tried disabling both of them but I still had issues.

[moostik]

When this happens, how long have you waited to see if it would clear? Most of the comparatively intense stuff FGU does isn't taking advantage of your GPU acceleration or multi-core CPU. Back when I was running a bunch of games (supposedly it's faster nowadays) I would see hangups for around a minute on some actions that involved long lists.



Not sure, I've waited several minutes but likely not 10.

[moostik]

Sounds like you have bandwidth issues. How big are the images and modes you are sharing? How .any players do you have? What is your upload (not download) speed? Does this happen when only 1 player connects?

Seems to be connected to uploading for sure. However, if uploads are taking time because some players have slower internet connection than me, why should that crash the server? The networking code in FGU must be really bad if that is the case.

I have roughly 5 players every session. Some of them live really far away from me. Literally a different continent.

The first map images I used were modest size, I had problems even then. I've since used a couple of maps I made myself, those are larger in size. Problems generally arise during combat, but not always.

My upload speed is 1000 mbps. There's nothing wrong with my line, I have been hosting game servers with 20-30 players (Conan Exiles etc) where even players connecting from the middle east (I live in Europe) had zero lag.

This does not normally happen with just one player connected, it's a problem that only arises when we have an actual session (i.e. only when it actually matters)

I'd say it might be a bandwith issue, but it has nothing to do with my bandwith whatsoever.

[damned]

It should not be spinning for 10minutes for sure. I would think that there are conditions where 1 min might be expected - combination of user download speed, your upload speed, how much data is being transferred. How big is your campaign directory? I dont experience any where near the conditions you are describing and im on a 8yr old cpu and cheap gfx card but I also dont use a lot of lighting or huge numbers of actors in the CT.

[damned]

It is unfortunately the case that when a player connects the GM client does mostly stop other tasks and just handle the new client.
It should not crash either side.
How big is the campaign folder?

[moostik]

What is the size of your campaign folder for this campaign?
If you start a new RMC campaign and open your normal modules and load an encounter and get someone to connect do you get the same issue?
When a player is connecting for the first time I think it is pretty normal for your session to freeze for a few seconds at least.
After that is should generally be OK.

Can't check the size right now. It's not huge, its a new campaign, we're 7 painful session in I think. I've tried loading a new campaign and have a single person join, it's fine. I only have problems when several players are connected.

[damned]

If its a newish campaign then that is probably not an issue.
Is there anything that you are leaning towards it being?
Does the issue occur when a particular player is connecting or doing something?
Does it happen when moving to a new map or adding a new encounter to the CT?

[moostik]

And also check on your GPU usage - if it's high, maybe use of the /vsync command might help - see here for more information: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/1638006786/Reducing+GPU+Usage

Basically it seems only 1 or 2 cores are working at the same time. None of them are even slightly stressed, cruising at below 40% load at all times as far as I've been able to observe so far.
I'll keep an eye on i again, but tbh with my specs, if I had issues with CPU usage I thing everyone would.

I'll check out the vsync command though, thanks.

[moostik]

Rolemaster is one of the rulesets that I think place the heaviest load on FG because of all the tables being integral to pretty well everything you do in a game. It's right up there, perhaps (perhaps not) a step below the D&D Classics ruleset in terms of the stuff going on in the background for most rolls.

After several years of frustration with not being able to get FGU to perform at a level I considered to be baseline acceptable when running what is a normal game for me I bit the bullet and went out earlier this year and bought a laptop that is similar to what the OP has posted - I added more ram - up to 48 gb based on my experience with FGU - and I think it has made a difference. A "normal" game for me is 8+ PCs and 2x to 3x that NPC/enemies in combat (FWIW FGC handled this and more just fine).

This system can run a FPS like Escape from Tarkov on full graphics and have horsepower left to spare, yet FGU with LoS, a few ambient lights and one token with a light spell, another with a lantern and a 3rd with a torch seems to place a heavier load, especially if the map is "big" and the CT is "well populated". There has only been one map this new laptop struggled with and it is quite large and I had tokens spread out all over the place.

I like using FGU to it's fullest capacity to run and realize my game scenarios, so suggestions like minimizing CT population only works if you aren't in a situation where logically you would have "a lot" of actors in there.

If there are a lot of light sources, I want to have them, not hand wave and engage in half measures - as soon as you provide things like lighting and LoS, they aren't half measure type things in my opinion, so if I'm using them, I'm using them... not using two and hand waving the rest because FGU chuggs. Personally that approach doesn't work for me.

Several things I do before each game:

1. Reboot. Not a restart but a complete shut down, walk away for a few minutes and then start up again. Seems to make a difference (anecdotal).
2. Load FGU 30 minutes or so before game time and let everyone know it's up and waiting for them to connect. This helps avoid 8+ people connecting at once and bogging things down, which sometimes seems to have carry over impacts for the rest of the session (anecdotal).
2. Put an effect on each PC like VISMAX: x where x is the distance you want the token to have visibility out to, depending on your LoS and lighting effects.

I think personally this VISMAX effect has made a big difference. I don't know programming but I suspect that FGU normally calculates vision on each and every token on a map, out as far as possible until hitting the end of the map or intervening LoS blocks, and sends that data back and forth between every token on the map or in the CT, even if say 120' of 140' of that data is essentially "darkness - can't see". I could be wrong about that, but VISMAX has made a big difference for me. Personally I use x=75 for humans and people without special sight and x=90 or 120 for those with darkvision, infravision, etc.... You might think that this isn't very realistic, but in dungeons how often does someone really need more than say 75 feet of vision when torches are half that and lanterns a little more than half... its an accommodation I personally can live with compared to the alternatives.

Hope this gives some ideas/perspective to the OP.

Thanks for this, JohnD, I could try VISMAX for sure. My PC does not seem to be struggling in any way during sessions, the freeze happens regardless. CPU, memory, and bandwith are peaking at nowhere near max performance during sessions but then I move a token or make a ranged attack (or even do nothing) and the whole thing freezes, windows warns me Unity has become unresponsive, and it simply does not recover. It has also crashed to desktop with no warning or error message.

[moostik]

It is unfortunately the case that when a player connects the GM client does mostly stop other tasks and just handle the new client.
It should not crash either side.
How big is the campaign folder?

I've had people drop off and then reconnect during session. GM side client is fine, it doesn't freeze but in worst case scenario it takes a slight pause (about a second) to think about it.

[moostik]

If its a newish campaign then that is probably not an issue.
Is there anything that you are leaning towards it being?
Does the issue occur when a particular player is connecting or doing something?
Does it happen when moving to a new map or adding a new encounter to the CT?

I really wish I had some idea. I've had anywhere from 1 to 6-7 freeze-crashes during a single 3 hour session. It may happen at any time, but most frequently it happens during combat. Since it did also happen during a combat-less session, it can't be the source of the problem, just a frequent trigger. I am hoping people who have had similar problems may have an idea of how they fixed it, being the only GM with a bug makes it very difficult to figure out the source of the trouble.

If it's due to a single player conneting, or if it's due to anything relating to players being connected, it really should absolutely not crash the GM client unless the networking code in FGU is very bad.
Imagine a Call of Duty server exploding every time someone with a bad line connected....

[Nylanfs]

Also just in-case you weren't aware your computer is the server, Smiteworks server is only there for the connection brokering.

Maybe it's an over zealous anti-virus program? Although one would think that would be triggered nearly every time you update.

[moostik]

Also just in-case you weren't aware your computer is the server, Smiteworks server is only there for the connection brokering.

Maybe it's an over zealous anti-virus program? Although one would think that would be triggered nearly every time you update.

Yes, I am aware that the GM client is the server. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I still think IF anything connected to the server causes it to crash, the networking code in FGU itself is not working as intended. I'm still not sure if that is the case, although many here have have suggested it is network or bandwith related.

My firewall and my antivirus software are both configured to let traffic through the ports used by FGU.
I have no issues while connected to other peoples games as a player.

[JohnD]

I feel for you moostik... sounds very frustrating. I sure know I was frustrated for a good 18 months with slow downs, spinning circles and non-responsiveness before I bit the bullet and threw $ at the problem.

[Lo Zeno]

I really wish I had some idea. I've had anywhere from 1 to 6-7 freeze-crashes during a single 3 hour session. It may happen at any time, but most frequently it happens during combat. Since it did also happen during a combat-less session, it can't be the source of the problem, just a frequent trigger. I am hoping people who have had similar problems may have an idea of how they fixed it, being the only GM with a bug makes it very difficult to figure out the source of the trouble.

If it's due to a single player conneting, or if it's due to anything relating to players being connected, it really should absolutely not crash the GM client unless the networking code in FGU is very bad.
Imagine a Call of Duty server exploding every time someone with a bad line connected....

Total shot in the dark here, but I figured it's worth asking to exclude any possible cause:
Are you, by any chance, using a remote desktop connection to manage your computer when DMing? I ask because a couple of times I had to use my laptop to remote into my main PC to run a session (because I didn't want to copy campagin files back and forth between computers), and those times I did experience similar freezings, window becoming unresponsive, and crash to desktop.

[Moon Wizard]

Does it happen in a new campaign too?
How big are the map/image files you are using?
How many tokens do you have on the maps?

In the case of slow performance, the data you are using is usually the key.

Regards,
JPG

[moostik]

Total shot in the dark here, but I figured it's worth asking to exclude any possible cause:
Are you, by any chance, using a remote desktop connection to manage your computer when DMing? I ask because a couple of times I had to use my laptop to remote into my main PC to run a session (because I didn't want to copy campagin files back and forth between computers), and those times I did experience similar freezings, window becoming unresponsive, and crash to desktop.

No, not using Remote Deskotop (Although my Windows is Win 10 Pro)

[moostik]

Does it happen in a new campaign too?
How big are the map/image files you are using?
How many tokens do you have on the maps?

In the case of slow performance, the data you are using is usually the key.

Regards,
JPG

Thing is, I don't have performance issues. The whole thing just freezes. I go from 30% CPU load on 2 cores and 40% mem usage to total freeze up and FGU is unresponsive. Nothing is ever slow, it runs fine then explodes.
The freeze is not the running circle kind, either. The window gets a layer of windows-whiteout (transculent white) over it, and the window title gets (not responding) added to it. In the taske manager, mem usage is then static, not changing, and again Not Responding. CPU use drops to zero. I can still X the window out to close it, but that's it. No error log.

The maps I use are tiny default FGU ones, some bought ones by Gabriel Picard (used by thousands of GM's), and some tiny ones grabbed off the internet.
In addition some i made myself, those are larger in size. The thing is, we had this problem before I even added my own maps.

The campaign size is 73 megabytes by the looks of it.

Last session it crashed so hard it wouldn't boot up properly again. We lost the the session (all progress we had that day) and FGU rebuilt the campaign file. I then had to restore from a backup, combat data and positions on the map was gone forever.

Maps are genrally 10mb or less, with the largest one ever used was about 150mb. Note that the 150mb one, although ridiculously huge, was only used last session, and we had crashes every one of the 6 sessions prior to that one.

Tokens on map vary, we've had 10 and we've had 50. No difference really.

[moostik]

I feel for you moostik... sounds very frustrating. I sure know I was frustrated for a good 18 months with slow downs, spinning circles and non-responsiveness before I bit the bullet and threw $ at the problem.

Thanks, yeah... I feel with my PC being a gaming rig, everything new, just a year old... I already threw money at it before even starting to use FGU.

[Moon Wizard]

I think it actually might be related to the images, LoS and tokens; which is why I asked about them.

10MB+ images are actually very large resolution wise; and higher resolutions equates to greater taxing of resources multiplied by number of tokens for LoS/FoW/visibility checks. Our recommended image sizes are 4K by 4K or smaller; and 2MB or smaller in size. Most artist maps are much higher resolution than what is needed for VTT play.

As an example, the large maps in the 5E DotMM adventure are set to about 2.5K by 2.5K resolution and clock in at under 2MB each.

Regards,
JPG

[Sulimo]

Thing is, I don't have performance issues. The whole thing just freezes. I go from 30% CPU load on 2 cores and 40% mem usage to total freeze up and FGU is unresponsive. Nothing is ever slow, it runs fine then explodes.
The freeze is not the running circle kind, either. The window gets a layer of windows-whiteout (transculent white) over it, and the window title gets (not responding) added to it. In the taske manager, mem usage is then static, not changing, and again Not Responding. CPU use drops to zero. I can still X the window out to close it, but that's it. No error log.

The maps I use are tiny default FGU ones, some bought ones by Gabriel Picard (used by thousands of GM's), and some tiny ones grabbed off the internet.
In addition some i made myself, those are larger in size. The thing is, we had this problem before I even added my own maps.

The campaign size is 73 megabytes by the looks of it.

Last session it crashed so hard it wouldn't boot up properly again. We lost the the session (all progress we had that day) and FGU rebuilt the campaign file. I then had to restore from a backup, combat data and positions on the map was gone forever.

Maps are genrally 10mb or less, with the largest one ever used was about 150mb. Note that the 150mb one, although ridiculously huge, was only used last session, and we had crashes every one of the 6 sessions prior to that one.

Tokens on map vary, we've had 10 and we've had 50. No difference really.

I think your map size might be your issue.

Per the Developer Guidelines (https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/2037547009/Developer+Guidelines), maps should be no larger than 4kx4k pixels and about 4MB in file size on disk.

I've been using FGU and RMC for a while now (pretty much since the beta), and while it might experience a freeze occasionally (especially the first time opening large lists, it has gotten a lot better though), I have experienced nothing like what you have described. Even after hours and hours of running. I've even (by accident) put my computer to sleep and when it woke back up saw FG was still running and I decided to try it out, no issues there either. NOTE: This is not recommended, it happened by accident, and I try to remember to close it down before I put the computer to sleep.

As Moon Wizard recommends, I'd also start with reducing the size of your maps, and see if that helps at all.

[moostik]

55311

This is the typical map size and type I use. And yes, different group members have different vision types and there may or may not be light sources on the map depending on time of day etc. I sometimes use weather effects and oteher FX as well but not always.

If FGU can't do what it's made to do and I need to constantly make sure I don't throw to many enemies at the party or use a map over 2mb because the game might crash, then that tbh is a massive disappointment. If it caused slowdowns and froze for a few seconds I could deal with it and manage my resources, but a CTD or freeze without recovery is unacceptable. I really hope there is something that can be done.

Thank you all so far, I have a few things I can try now at least.

[Moon Wizard]

As @Sulimo pointed out, we have a recommended map size, and this is specifically to keep performance at an acceptable level. This has been the case since FGU was released, and all of the official material works within the recommended guidelines.

If you are using maps larger than the recommended size, you will likely have stalling or performance issues as you add more tokens to a map. The solution is to reduce the map sizes down to an overall smaller resolution for performance of both UI and network transfer times to players.

Regards,
JPG

[moostik]

As @Sulimo pointed out, we have a recommended map size, and this is specifically to keep performance at an acceptable level. This has been the case since FGU was released, and all of the official material works within the recommended guidelines.

If you are using maps larger than the recommended size, you will likely have stalling or performance issues as you add more tokens to a map. The solution is to reduce the map sizes down to an overall smaller resolution for performance of both UI and network transfer times to players.

Regards,
JPG

Right, it is worth a try. Would using the /imagequality command do the trick, or do i need to resize/resample all the maps i have on disk?

I just discovered something else that might be the issue too. What is the default vsync value? I have two screens, and they seem to have different refrash rate. If I extend the FGU screen to both screens, could that in theory crash the whole vsync process?

[Zacchaeus]

The sync could be the issue if you are experiencing crashes, especially given your specs. You could test by only using one screen to determine if you still have a problem to eliminate that as a cause.

[Moon Wizard]

All of the issues will most likely stem from the image sizes. You will need to resample the image to lower resolutions (optimally under 4kx4k).

The imagequality and vsync commands only apply to very specific cases, regarding FoW complexity and graphics card frame rate.

JPG

[moostik]

All of the issues will most likely stem from the image sizes. You will need to resample the image to lower resolutions (optimally under 4kx4k).

The imagequality and vsync commands only apply to very specific cases, regarding FoW complexity and graphics card frame rate.

JPG

4200*4200, 6.6 mb maps with a few light sources and 5 player tokens plus a dozen enemies will definitely cause issues on a modern gaming rig? My best bet is to resize those maps?
Because initially those were the largest maps in the campaign file, and I had issues from session 1.

I will try it if that's what you rcommend.

[seycyrus]

4200*4200, 6.6 mb maps with a few light sources a ...

I use that exact map as is, under approximately the same conditions as you describe and don't seem to recall having issues. How many occluders etc. do you have?

[moostik]

I use that exact map as is, under approximately the same conditions as you describe and don't seem to recall having issues. How many occluders etc. do you have?

Anywhere from none whatsoever to plenty. If I ran something like a cave there would be a bunch of LOS walls and such of course. If I ran an outdoor daytime encounter there would be no additions to the map save possibly a fog effect. Thing is, it crashes while I'm sharing a map, even more often if I also populate the combat tracker, but it never crashes unless players are connected.

I can load massive maps and prepare them for session, and I can run test fights in the combat tracker with a massive amount of combatants, and have no issues. I just can't run a session successfully.
I also tried to replicate the error with just one player connected, but we could not make it crash in that instance.

[Trenloe]

Basically it seems only 1 or 2 cores are working at the same time. None of them are even slightly stressed, cruising at below 40% load at all times as far as I've been able to observe so far.
I'll keep an eye on i again, but tbh with my specs, if I had issues with CPU usage I thing everyone would.

I'll check out the vsync command though, thanks.
My post was specifically referring to GPU (Graphical Processing Unit) not CPU. If you have a gaming rig it could be that you're running at a high frame rate and taking a lot of GPU resource - as mentioned in the Wiki troubleshooting page I linked. Can you check the GPU usage when experiencing issues, not CPU usage, please?

[moostik]

My post was specifically referring to GPU (Graphical Processing Unit) not CPU. If you have a gaming rig it could be that you're running at a high frame rate and taking a lot of GPU resource - as mentioned in the Wiki troubleshooting page I linked. Can you check the GPU usage when experiencing issues, not CPU usage, please?

Sorry, misread that. My 3070 didn't even get hot last session. Didn't check its resource use though. Unfortunately it only crashes during sessions, so I'll use the /vsync 0 command next time and see if it helps.

[LordEntrails]

4200*4200, 6.6 mb maps with a few light sources and 5 player tokens plus a dozen enemies will definitely cause issues on a modern gaming rig? My best bet is to resize those maps?
Because initially those were the largest maps in the campaign file, and I had issues from session 1.

I will try it if that's what you rcommend.
No, that image is not a problem for the host. But it might be for one of your players. For instance, I've run much larger images than that on my old 8+ year old laptop. But, if one of your players has a potato, or a really poor internet connection, then you can all have problems.

Freezing is not crashing. FGU freezes when it is busy doing something. Usually this is not more than a second or so, FGU is also mostly single threaded, meaning it can only do one thing at a time. So, if you share a 6MB image and one of your players have really horrible bandwidth with dropped packets etc, then your computer (the host, freezes while it tries to serve the image to that one player. In most cases this shouldn't be more than 30-60 seconds, but it can grow exponentially depending upon the player connection. I think earlier you said that it had frozen for 10 minutes. And that would definitely indicate something is wrong, something like router throttling or other security applications getting in the way.

If you can isolate/reproduce what causes it or under what conditions it occurs, then we can help you trouble shoot more specifically. You might be able to try using a different internet connection (i.e. a phone hotspot, from your library, etc) and see if that resolves/helps.

[Trenloe]

I've had people drop off and then reconnect during session. GM side client is fine, it doesn't freeze but in worst case scenario it takes a slight pause (about a second) to think about it.
Re-reading the posts and seeing this just now. Are the players dropping off due to a forced disconnection, or are the disconnecting themselves (closing FG)? If it's a forced disconnection then this points towards something on the GM server <-> remote client network connectivity - as players are dropping and reconnecting, but your local client doesn't.

The next time you have issues and players start disconnecting, please collect the FG logs from the GM side and also from at least one of the players who are having issues - details on how to compile logs can be found here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/1242136781/How+to+Compile+Logs

[moostik]

No, that image is not a problem for the host. But it might be for one of your players. For instance, I've run much larger images than that on my old 8+ year old laptop. But, if one of your players has a potato, or a really poor internet connection, then you can all have problems.

Freezing is not crashing. FGU freezes when it is busy doing something. Usually this is not more than a second or so, FGU is also mostly single threaded, meaning it can only do one thing at a time. So, if you share a 6MB image and one of your players have really horrible bandwidth with dropped packets etc, then your computer (the host, freezes while it tries to serve the image to that one player. In most cases this shouldn't be more than 30-60 seconds, but it can grow exponentially depending upon the player connection. I think earlier you said that it had frozen for 10 minutes. And that would definitely indicate something is wrong, something like router throttling or other security applications getting in the way.

If you can isolate/reproduce what causes it or under what conditions it occurs, then we can help you trouble shoot more specifically. You might be able to try using a different internet connection (i.e. a phone hotspot, from your library, etc) and see if that resolves/helps.

Thanks, this does help. I do have some players with lower end pc's and bandwith. I've had my client freeze up to the point where windows tells me "Unity Engine is not responding". What my answer was before is, I have waited for some minutes to see if it clears up, but I have likely not waited 10 minutes. In the end I have killed FGU off and restarted it, assuming it would not recover. To make a fairly random estimate, let's say my patience has had a duration of about 6 minutes at most. These freezes have been happening even when i was sharing a map where nothing was moving on said map, in sessions with no combat. The seem to be more frequent where tokens on the map are in the combat tracker and things are changing on the map. They do not however happen during the process of sharing the map itself, I always wait to let all players confirm they have loaded the map and can see it.

I have a fiberoptic 1000 mbps (1 gbps) up+down (synchronous) internet line, which is very stable for everyhting else I do, and I am connected to it via a wireless network router (standalone) using a CAT6 cable, and the router is connected via a similar cable to the broadband modem where the fiber comes in. I have considered connecting to the broadband box directly and I can try that to see if there is any difference, but I seriously doubt that firewall is the problem because I already port forwarded the ports FGU is using to my PC (as there are multible devices in my house). Still could be an issue with that box, so I could try.

If the problem was related to my newtwork setup or internet line, I'd be surprised. The freeze happens when something specific is going on, at least for the most part. Would my firewalls care more about me moving a token or adding an effect than it would care about me sharing a map at the beginning of a session, because that would make no sense.

I'm leaning more towards some of my players have issues with theirs, or perhaps their line is just slow and I should try waiting for longer as well as using smaller maps?

[moostik]

Re-reading the posts and seeing this just now. Are the players dropping off due to a forced disconnection, or are the disconnecting themselves (closing FG)? If it's a forced disconnection then this points towards something on the GM server <-> remote client network connectivity - as players are dropping and reconnecting, but your local client doesn't.

The next time you have issues and players start disconnecting, please collect the FG logs from the GM side and also from at least one of the players who are having issues - details on how to compile logs can be found here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/1242136781/How+to+Compile+Logs

Certain specific players have this issue at random times. I'll collect the logs next session (tuesday) unless the issues are already resolved by then. Since I never have issues unless people are connected, I can't troubleshoot much.

I should mention I currently play in another GM's game using FGU as well. I never have any problems being connected to their campaign as a player.

[LordEntrails]

It seems likely related to one of the players' connections. Collecting as many of their logs as possible along with your will help. Good luck!

[JohnD]

55311

This is the typical map size and type I use. And yes, different group members have different vision types and there may or may not be light sources on the map depending on time of day etc. I sometimes use weather effects and oteher FX as well but not always.

If FGU can't do what it's made to do and I need to constantly make sure I don't throw to many enemies at the party or use a map over 2mb because the game might crash, then that tbh is a massive disappointment. If it caused slowdowns and froze for a few seconds I could deal with it and manage my resources, but a CTD or freeze without recovery is unacceptable. I really hope there is something that can be done.

Thank you all so far, I have a few things I can try now at least.

I don't think I have that map, but I've used many like it. You can reduce that 6+ mb size to around 2 mb without a significant decrease in image quality. Would make a big difference to your lower end computer users.

[esmdev]

There are some factors with players connected.

First, they don't always have the best of computer hardware, so while things might run like a champ on your system, they might lag the elf out of theirs.
Second, with players located in different geographic locations, different ISPs, and different network technologies, there can often be a lot of unanticipated lag that nobody can control.

Like you might have an elf ton of RAM but your player might be running 4 or 8GB and a large map with a lot of extra features and tokens might just kill their system.

There are so many possible reasons for problems, and one of my players lives in the dark ages of computer technology, so I tend to stick to smaller maps and only as many tokens as I absolutely need active at one time. That keeps her system from going off the deep end (most of the time) and makes everything run pretty fast.

I find that when my system is lagging and temp-crashing, it is almost always the size and complexity of my maps. Of course, the RMC ruleset probably adds some to the issues, there is a lot of mysterious magic under the hood making all that happen!

Maybe you could zip your campaign and Dakadin could take a look at it just to be sure it's not something in RMC?

[moostik]

There are some factors with players connected.

First, they don't always have the best of computer hardware, so while things might run like a champ on your system, they might lag the elf out of theirs.
Second, with players located in different geographic locations, different ISPs, and different network technologies, there can often be a lot of unanticipated lag that nobody can control.

Like you might have an elf ton of RAM but your player might be running 4 or 8GB and a large map with a lot of extra features and tokens might just kill their system.

There are so many possible reasons for problems, and one of my players lives in the dark ages of computer technology, so I tend to stick to smaller maps and only as many tokens as I absolutely need active at one time. That keeps her system from going off the deep end (most of the time) and makes everything run pretty fast.

I find that when my system is lagging and temp-crashing, it is almost always the size and complexity of my maps. Of course, the RMC ruleset probably adds some to the issues, there is a lot of mysterious magic under the hood making all that happen!

Maybe you could zip your campaign and Dakadin could take a look at it just to be sure it's not something in RMC?

It doesn't kill their system per se, it just makes their system kill mine.

Update: Dakadin connected to my campaign today and had a look at some things. I am hopeful we might have found some triggers and that this will help, we'll see this coming tuesday.
I will point out (as I already have before here) that if the server has to stop everything it's doing to communicate changes to the clients, and their lack of good machinery or a good line can lag, freeze, or crash the server,
then the problem lies within the code itself, not the use of the application.

However, I have come to understand that this is mostly due to limitations in the Unity engine, and its tendency to force such communication to single-threading. What this means is of course, until further notice I will have to adjust and change the use to be more forgiving for the network traffic.

Coming from more than a decade of using MapTool as my main VTT, I am used to the map being the VTT's main focus and automation being a bonus. FGU is simply the exact opposite, and the automation is why I switched.
All that being said, wish me luck, and I will post here again if I still can't make this work... because I really wwant it to.

[LordEntrails]

Elf ton of RAM..
I'm going to have to find a way to use that phrase at work this month...

[moostik]

Elf ton of RAM..
I'm going to have to find a way to use that phrase at work this month...

Yeah, i loved that one too. Metric elf tons and imperial dwarf tons FTW :D

[SALVADIO]

The fact that it freezes when someone connects is something that exists and that does not depend on the machine and not on the set of rules, but on the lack of multi thread related to the connection, having it when the first one comes in is "acceptable" having it always is sign that something is missing in the code or even in the chosen language and this is a recurring problem since the FGC that I believe we all believed (I still believe) that it would be solved.

[MrDDT]

All of the issues will most likely stem from the image sizes. You will need to resample the image to lower resolutions (optimally under 4kx4k).

The imagequality and vsync commands only apply to very specific cases, regarding FoW complexity and graphics card frame rate.

JPG

If this is the case it's super silly, luckily, it's not. Can't even have a 4k image lol. (yes I know Moon Wizard is the dev of the game)


4200*4200, 6.6 mb maps with a few light sources and 5 player tokens plus a dozen enemies will definitely cause issues on a modern gaming rig? My best bet is to resize those maps?
Because initially those were the largest maps in the campaign file, and I had issues from session 1.

I will try it if that's what you rcommend.

What you want to do is cut down the LOS points, and the number of tokens on the map (and lighting stuff). This would greatly affect movement and overall game lag with the map. (Also the new FOW turning that off will help, I have it off for NPCs)
Map size I've found has almost nothing to do with it. Unless you getting to extreme points (I've used over 1gig maps no problem that have no LOS and only 1 token)

Map size largest issue is the connection of people trying to get the file from you along with your upload speed. Don't forget when you right click share a map, it is now split your upload to xPlayers at the same time, plus they are limited in how fast they can download based on their speed and your split upload speeds. I tend to preload the maps that are large to players by putting them on share before they load into the game so they get that overwith on the first load in. Some players can even start your session before you play.

I can't stress this enough, LOS will have a MAJOR factor on your gameplay/lag.



55311

This is the typical map size and type I use. And yes, different group members have different vision types and there may or may not be light sources on the map depending on time of day etc. I sometimes use weather effects and oteher FX as well but not always.

If FGU can't do what it's made to do and I need to constantly make sure I don't throw to many enemies at the party or use a map over 2mb because the game might crash, then that tbh is a massive disappointment. If it caused slowdowns and froze for a few seconds I could deal with it and manage my resources, but a CTD or freeze without recovery is unacceptable. I really hope there is something that can be done.

Thank you all so far, I have a few things I can try now at least.

Normally large maps = a lot more points of LOS that's (as I said before) is the major issue, but large maps or high res maps (I often use 200px per 5ft) is not an issue unless you have players with bad net, or your upload is really bad.

****Lighting, FX, LOS, # of tokens and FOW, all have a much larger factor than anything else.**** -- Can't stress this enough--

I want to also throw this in there just in case, Extensions can have a huge impact on lag. First thing I would do if you get any lag, is turn off all exts and see if it's still there. There are some really poorly done exts that will loop things or just really degrade the speed of the game (mostly in dice rolls but can also greatly effect adding things to the CT, opening NPC or player sheets, movements on maps etc)

I use a lot of exts and I can tell you that some are harsher on performance than others.

[moostik]

Thanks, @MrDDT

yeah idk.... today I tried running session again, it took until the first attack for the thing to freeze up again. Something else is wrong I think. I tried basically everything suggested so far in today's session. Tiny map, no effects, tiny bit of LOD, 11 tokens total, no luck.

I'm gonna try removing every trace of FGU from my PC, reinstalling it to a new disk, generate a brand new campaign file, and salvage what I can from the old one.
If that doesn't help, I think i'm done. 7 sessions down the drain, keep it up I'll lose all my players.

I'll give it one last proper push to make it work, if it refuses I'm going back to MapTool.

-M

[Trenloe]

yeah idk.... today I tried running session again, it took until the first attack for the thing to freeze up again.
Was it a player making the attack or the GM?

When a player does any action that rolls dice, some of the processing is passed off the GM instance of FG. If it's freezing when a player makes an attack then it could well be related to the player connectivity (which we've touched on in some of the posts in this thread). It's probably too late, but it would be great to get the full GM logs and the full player logs (the one whose action was around the time the freeze occurred) when something like this happens. Info on how to compile the logs can be found in the Wiki here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/1242136781/How+to+Compile+Logs

[moostik]

Was it a player making the attack or the GM?

When a player does any action that rolls dice, some of the processing is passed off the GM instance of FG. If it's freezing when a player makes an attack then it could well be related to the player connectivity (which we've touched on in some of the posts in this thread). It's probably too late, but it would be great to get the full GM logs and the full player logs (the one whose action was around the time the freeze occurred) when something like this happens. Info on how to compile the logs can be found in the Wiki here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/1242136781/How+to+Compile+Logs

Ok so what happened was:
All players had connected and the map was up for everybody. I had combat tracker up, we rolled initiative, First player in the list made his attack roll. Table resolver came up. Meanwhile, Player 2 plotted his movement for his turn. I hit the button to resolve the attack. FGU froze with the (not responding) text added to the window title and the transparent white overlay indicating as much. Waited for 10 minutes this time. FGU did not recover. I closed FGU and a message popped up with some unity engine standard crash message (the windows one where it asks if you want to send crash data to Microsoft)

We restarted everything, and this time something was corrupted probably - crashed properly for two players during connection and eventually froze again for me as soon as all players had successfully connected.
After that I contacted Dakadin and we had made attempts getting stuff to work, but long story short we couldn't so we cancelled session.

[Trenloe]

The next time anything like that happens, please compile the logs for the GM and one of the players involved.

[ColoradoGM]

Umm, don't do that. Smiteworks and almost everyone here will tell you to NOT (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75902-Release-Updates-for-November-22nd-2022&p=669212&viewfull=1#post669212) do that.



Don't update on a day you plan to run? Why? I run 7 days per week, sometimes 2 sessions per day. I have no "down day" for updating.

[Trenloe]

Don't update on a day you plan to run? Why? I run 7 days per week, sometimes 2 sessions per day. I have no "down day" for updating.
The recommendation is not to update right before a game starts - which is stated in every weekly update thread, for example: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?76040-Release-Updates-for-December-6th-2022

I think the OP comment was taken out of context by Nylanfs in their comment - i.e. thinking "same day" was actually right before the game. As long as you have time to do a check that nothing major is broken and can rectify any issues updating might cause then you're fine.

[JohnD]

Any chance anyone has a large Note entry somehow?

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75891-Working-with-huge-player-notes-creates-huge-lags&p=670509#post670509

[Moon Wizard]

Based on this last post:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75984-FGU-is-an-uplayable-mess&p=670515&viewfull=1#post670515

It seems like perhaps this has to do with something specific to the resolver behavior in that situation. Does the spinning wheel scenario seem to always occur when resolving a roll?

Regards,
JPG

[moostik]

Any chance anyone has a large Note entry somehow?

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75891-Working-with-huge-player-notes-creates-huge-lags&p=670509#post670509

No, they're all very small.

[moostik]

Based on this last post:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75984-FGU-is-an-uplayable-mess&p=670515&viewfull=1#post670515

It seems like perhaps this has to do with something specific to the resolver behavior in that situation. Does the spinning wheel scenario seem to always occur when resolving a roll?

Regards,
JPG

Not always, no.

It happens outside of combat as well, but more frequently during combat.
It's happened with a barebone map shared and 10 tokens on the map, no LOS or effects.
It's even happened with nothing going on apart from chat, while waiting for the last player to join for instance, although such cases are more rare

-M

[moostik]

I appreciate all your feedback so far, great community and many good suggestions.
We're gonna try to replicate the errors and collect logs before next session, Dakadin will help.
I'll get back to you with our findings.

-M

[Moon Wizard]

Based on what you've tried so far with reduced map/token usage, I'm thinking that it might be something specific to the RM resolver code in certain situations. Since FG is a platform, the implementation of the ruleset can have a big impact on performance and usage. Dakadin has done a great job; but RM is a very data-heavy and complex system with a lot of moving parts. Any information on the actions that happen just before any hangs will be very useful (for activity from GM and players both).

Regards,
JPG

[Laerun]

I have witnessed and experienced this type of behavior when there is some sort of network traffic shaping options enabled, or a router priority IP list.
Also, if my family is using the internet at the same time as myself during gameplay, it limits my bandwidth pool.
Wireless connections seem to suffer the most in these scenarios usually.
If and when players connect all at the same time this can also hang the client a bit. Are you sharing a bunch of character creation related books with the people connected to your sessions?

Best of luck!

[Mytherus]

The only problem with saying or suggesting it’s the net code, and I’ll disclaimer I’m no programmer (almost 30 years in IT but I’m not a programmer) , shouldn’t everyone have these issues?

Or at least vastly more people reporting this?

My 5e game has 7 players I use about 8 extensions including syrinscape. It’s honest load time is slow (2 minutes, but I mean an honest 2 minutes) .

But no freezes during sessions. Once every few sessions a player will just have a bad night and he’ll take extra long to connect and sometimes has trouble selecting things during the session. That’s the worse it has been in several month for us (of course I hope I didn’t just jinx this Fridays session lol)

[Dakadin]

Based on what you've tried so far with reduced map/token usage, I'm thinking that it might be something specific to the RM resolver code in certain situations. Since FG is a platform, the implementation of the ruleset can have a big impact on performance and usage. Dakadin has done a great job; but RM is a very data-heavy and complex system with a lot of moving parts. Any information on the actions that happen just before any hangs will be very useful (for activity from GM and players both).

Regards,
JPG

Yeah, the Table Resolver is the most complicated portion of the ruleset. I figured that maybe a custom table contained something that the code wasn't expecting then that might cause an issue. I checked if Moostik was using any custom tables but he said it was happening with regular attack tables. We've schedule a time to troubleshoot it since the initial suggestions didn't resolve the issue. Hopefully we can track it down during that time.

[moostik]

Based on what you've tried so far with reduced map/token usage, I'm thinking that it might be something specific to the RM resolver code in certain situations. Since FG is a platform, the implementation of the ruleset can have a big impact on performance and usage. Dakadin has done a great job; but RM is a very data-heavy and complex system with a lot of moving parts. Any information on the actions that happen just before any hangs will be very useful (for activity from GM and players both).

Regards,
JPG

I'm having a hard time finding a common denominator regarding what I am doing before the freeze/crashes after probably 100 freeze-ups where none of them recovered.
-Most often during combat, while someone is interacting with the map. I've noticed sometimes it's when i drag a pointer. Or a player plots movement. Or I hit the resolve button in the table resolver.
-Often when a map is shared with tokens on it but there's no combat.
-Sometimes when all players are connected but nobody's touching anything as far as I know. For instance we're just starting session and we're just talking.
-Never unless players are connected.
-Never when I join other GM's campaigns, playing rolemaster or other games as a player.

-M

[moostik]

I have witnessed and experienced this type of behavior when there is some sort of network traffic shaping options enabled, or a router priority IP list.
Also, if my family is using the internet at the same time as myself during gameplay, it limits my bandwidth pool.
Wireless connections seem to suffer the most in these scenarios usually.
If and when players connect all at the same time this can also hang the client a bit. Are you sharing a bunch of character creation related books with the people connected to your sessions?

Best of luck!

Regarding bandwith pool, like I mentioned earlier I have a great internet line in my opinion, 1000/1000.
I am usually the only one using it during sessions. I however use it for other things as well. I am on discord talking to all my players, I use a stream bot to play sounds, music etc from my computer to the discord voice channel (discord bot hosted on my pc), and I might have some tabs open in google chrome. I have monitored my network traffic during sessions and it is very far form peaking near my capacity.

-M

[moostik]

The only problem with saying or suggesting it’s the net code, and I’ll disclaimer I’m no programmer (almost 30 years in IT but I’m not a programmer) , shouldn’t everyone have these issues?

Or at least vastly more people reporting this?

My 5e game has 7 players I use about 8 extensions including syrinscape. It’s honest load time is slow (2 minutes, but I mean an honest 2 minutes) .

But no freezes during sessions. Once every few sessions a player will just have a bad night and he’ll take extra long to connect and sometimes has trouble selecting things during the session. That’s the worse it has been in several month for us (of course I hope I didn’t just jinx this Fridays session lol)

If it only affected the individual player who had the bad connection like in your case, that would be an example of net code working as expected.
In my case it seems to only affect the server, which if it was caused by the net code would be an example of pretty bad net code.
Also, I'm not suggesting it is the net code, I'm merely pointing out the above because several people here are suggesting solutions that indicate they think it has something to do with the networking or bandwith.

-M

[Moon Wizard]

Being the developer on the project, I find it very unlikely that it is net code system in general; because the net code is fairly standard serialized UDP, and one of the few spots that is definitely multi-threaded. I'm not ruling it out completely; since it could be a huge data dump from changes in the ruleset/data that floods the data->network interface.

My first theory was the graphics, as using higher than suggested graphics can cause performance slowdowns and stalls depending on the actions. However, it sounds like you've already simplified and scaled down the maps and tokens. If so, then that seems less likely, unless the LoS blockers are incredibly complex. On a related question, have you looked at the token/portrait graphic sizes at all? May not be relevant, but players can load whatever they want into a portrait. (You can check the portrait file sizes in the campaign portraits folder.)

If it's not the graphics, then my next theory is that the game engine is being stalled by complex ruleset logic. Since FG is a general purpose platform, rulesets can be written in any way by the DLC/ruleset developers. That is what I was mentioning in my prior post; and having Dakadin involved will help track that down if that's the case. Also, I can help out, if you guys are able to pinpoint or recreate the scenario to help answer questions or make suggestions on coding.

Regards,
JPG

[moostik]

Being the developer on the project, I find it very unlikely that it is net code system in general; because the net code is fairly standard serialized UDP, and one of the few spots that is definitely multi-threaded. I'm not ruling it out completely; since it could be a huge data dump from changes in the ruleset/data that floods the data->network interface.

My first theory was the graphics, as using higher than suggested graphics can cause performance slowdowns and stalls depending on the actions. However, it sounds like you've already simplified and scaled down the maps and tokens. If so, then that seems less likely, unless the LoS blockers are incredibly complex. On a related question, have you looked at the token/portrait graphic sizes at all? May not be relevant, but players can load whatever they want into a portrait. (You can check the portrait file sizes in the campaign portraits folder.)

If it's not the graphics, then my next theory is that the game engine is being stalled by complex ruleset logic. Since FG is a general purpose platform, rulesets can be written in any way by the DLC/ruleset developers. That is what I was mentioning in my prior post; and having Dakadin involved will help track that down if that's the case. Also, I can help out, if you guys are able to pinpoint or recreate the scenario to help answer questions or make suggestions on coding.

Regards,
JPG

Yeah, we'll look into that this weekend. It still baffles me I seem to be the only one experiencing this, whatever the cause turns out to be. We'll try to replicate the freeze/crash scenario and gather error logs. If we can't find the source of my troubles I might end up reinstalling everything starting with windows. I already tried clearing the vault a while back.

-M

[celestian]

Yeah, we'll look into that this weekend. It still baffles me I seem to be the only one experiencing this, whatever the cause turns out to be. We'll try to replicate the freeze/crash scenario and gather error logs. If we can't find the source of my troubles I might end up reinstalling everything starting with windows. I already tried clearing the vault a while back.

-M

Does windows lockup and blue screen or just FGU hang and it crash?

[Dakadin]

It might be something in the ruleset so I've made a copy of the ruleset and have been adding debug statements at the start of each of the global script functions. I will do the same for any of the Table Resolver functions. Then hopefully we can see what is happening in the console logs so I can see if it is one of my functions causing the issue. We will be working on it together later tonight for me (tomorrow morning for Moostik) to see if we can recreate what he is experiencing during his sessions. Then hopefully we can try to find a resolution for the issue.

[moostik]

Does windows lockup and blue screen or just FGU hang and it crash?

Windows have not given me any problems yet. FGU freezes and does not recover, becomes unresponsive/ not responding and i have to close it. I then always lose all changes to the campaign since last load, as in the entire session.

-M

[celestian]

Windows have not given me any problems yet. FGU freezes and does not recover, becomes unresponsive/ not responding and i have to close it. I then always lose all changes to the campaign since last load, as in the entire session.

-M

Okay, was just curious. I had some previous experience with some issues with windows/graphics so thought it might help but as that wasn't the issue I'll continue to watch how this works out ;(

[Dakadin]

We didn't have any luck getting it to crash during our testing so I explained how they can compile the logs.

One weird thing that I noticed during my testing is for some reason the ruleset announcement is showing based on the ruleset version that is on the system. So on my normal PC, I was seeing the message for my development version. While on another laptop, it was showing the current version because it doesn't have a folder for the ruleset so had the current released version showing. Then my old laptop which had an old development version was showing that versions announcement message. Should it be reading that from the players PC at all? I always thought it just downloaded a copy when the player connected.

[esmdev]

We didn't have any luck getting it to crash during our testing so I explained how they can compile the logs.

That's too bad. It's like when you're super sick and you go to the doctor and suddenly everything is fine. :(

[moostik]

We had a session tonight with fewer players than normal, and we had FGU crash(freeze) twice. This time the players compiled logs, as did I. The logs are attached for anyone who'd like to have a look.

-M

[Moon Wizard]

I'll take a look at the logs this weekend; but unless it's a script error or client error issue, there won't be much to see in the logs. I'll report back once I get a chance to look.

Were you able to get any sense of what you were doing just before it froze up?

Regards,
JPG

[Dakadin]

I was connected for it and it varied. One time happened while a move was being confirmed. The other I think happened while resolving an attack. You will see quite a bit of debug messages in the logs that identify the functions the ruleset is running for the global scripts and the functions related to the table resolver. Also FG hung for the GM so his logs are likely the prev log files where the players logs would be the current ones.

[Rainbird]

Very late to this one and it's a looong thread but it sounds like Moostik is suffering with similar issues to the ones I had.

I'm using RMC on FGU and the my issues disappeared when 1) I upgraded my fibre connection (60/20ish so nothing amazing) and 2) created a game only campaign area - this means I do all my map building/NPC/Token images in a WIP area and then import it via a module to the play area.

Also, John D's VISMAX tip is a great one to smooth game play generally.

I suffered with hanging/crashing/lag etc until I did the above.

Good luck.

Rainbird

[moostik]

Hi all,

First, thanks Rainbird, I'll keep that in mind moving forward.

Second, I discovered today that the serverside client may indeed freeze/crash while nobody is connected. However, the ONLY time that happens is if I am running my Discord stream bot, which I am normally running to stream Spotify and Syrinscape to discord. I do not normally have that running outside of session, but now that I did that to test, it did trigger the freeze-up (apparently).

I am moving the discord bot to a laptop now. We'll see how session goes this Tuesday, with the bot running on a different machine.

[Moon Wizard]

I'm not seeing anything stand out really in the logs so far; but I didn't think I would necessarily (as I mentioned above).

One passing item is that there were a couple D3D texture failures at the end of one of the logs; what kind of memory usage are you seeing when you load the campaign, and when you are typically running into issues? (Perhaps it's a lack of memory issue. Either other programs using up memory, or FG reaching a memory limit from data loaded...)

Whatever is happening, it appears to happen before anything can be written to the log, which could happen in low-memory situations as memory is paged to disk (very slow).

Regards,
JPG

[moostik]

I'm not seeing anything stand out really in the logs so far; but I didn't think I would necessarily (as I mentioned above).

One passing item is that there were a couple D3D texture failures at the end of one of the logs; what kind of memory usage are you seeing when you load the campaign, and when you are typically running into issues? (Perhaps it's a lack of memory issue. Either other programs using up memory, or FG reaching a memory limit from data loaded...)

Whatever is happening, it appears to happen before anything can be written to the log, which could happen in low-memory situations as memory is paged to disk (very slow).

Regards,
JPG

All right, thank you for looking through them all :)

During sessions my RAM usage peaks at somewhere around 35-45%.
My CPU usage is normally about 17%, with peaks of up to 22%
My GPU sits at a steady 40-42%
My network peaks at next to nothing, still measured in kilobits per second (~70-160) where my line is a gigabit.

These values are representative of my PC running everything i usually run during a game session;
FGU, Syrinscape desktop client, Spotify desktop client, a java-based Discord bot hosted on my PC, Discord, Edge (for PDF's), Google chrome, Excel, Notepad++. I may also run some system monitoring tools, and background processes like Onedrive etc.

-M

[Zarestia]

These values are representative of my PC running everything i usually run during a game session;
FGU, Syrinscape desktop client, Spotify desktop client, a java-based Discord bot hosted on my PC, Discord, Edge (for PDF's), Google chrome, Excel, Notepad++. I may also run some system monitoring tools, and background processes like Onedrive etc.

- Do you use any overlays for FGU (discord overlay for example)?
- Are any FGU folders being synced via OneDrive?

[Moon Wizard]

You might want to check on Task Manager next time you have a freeze-up, and check the memory / CPU / GPU levels for all applications at that point in time. I'm wondering if the memory spikes at some point (whether just FG, or combination of all applications), which causes disk paging which can cause apparent hangs. If the FG memory spikes over 4GB, or the overall memory of all applications spikes over total memory; then you would see some issues.

Regards,
JPG

[SilentRuin]

I have to admit - this title showing up every day in new posts... not really relevant to what is being discussed in here. Makes it seem FGU is an unplayable mess 24/7 in the forums! I disagree! Bugs and sorting them out is legit though - wish the title was something else though.

[Jiminimonka]

I have to admit - this title showing up every day in new posts... not really relevant to what is being discussed in here. Makes it seem FGU is an unplayable mess 24/7 in the forums! I disagree! Bugs and sorting them out is legit though - wish the title was something else though.

Yeah. Lock this thread. Its a terrible name and wrong entirely.

[Dakadin]

I sat in on his game and the title might be a bit of an exaggeration but it crashed twice in a couple hours so for him it is an issue. I think the issue is being caused by a conflict with the sound applications he is running and FGU doing its sounds. I think they are just stepping on each others toes. He moved the sound programs to another PC and has his game tomorrow I believe so if that resolves the issue maybe he will update the title.

[celestian]

- Do you use any overlays for FGU (discord overlay for example)?


This could be one possible culprit actually. I've had the overlay (discord) interact badly with various things including my own FGU.

[moostik]

- Do you use any overlays for FGU (discord overlay for example)?
- Are any FGU folders being synced via OneDrive?

No Discord overlay.
I use the steam version of FGU, and there is a framerate counter in the top right corner. In that sense there is an overlay as that is part of the Steam overlay.
The data folder is backed up to dropbox, but dropbox is always shut down completely during sessions.


Moon Wizard
You might want to check on Task Manager next time you have a freeze-up, and check the memory / CPU / GPU levels for all applications at that point in time. I'm wondering if the memory spikes at some point (whether just FG, or combination of all applications), which causes disk paging which can cause apparent hangs. If the FG memory spikes over 4GB, or the overall memory of all applications spikes over total memory; then you would see some issues.

Yep, i could check. In my opinion, if it doesn't use excess memory outside of the freeze, it's hard to say if the freeze-up is caused by memory spike or if the memory spike is caused by the freeze-up. I'll have a look at that anyway though.


SilentRuin
I have to admit - this title showing up every day in new posts... not really relevant to what is being discussed in here. Makes it seem FGU is an unplayable mess 24/7 in the forums! I disagree! Bugs and sorting them out is legit though - wish the title was something else though.

I respectfully disagree. This problem has been ruining 8 sessions of otherwise would-be wonderful gameplay in a new campaign for me and for my 5 players. FGU freezes with no recovery over and over until we give up. The problem has not been resolved. The title is descriptive of the issue at hand. I could have asked the community here for advice on thread naming, but that's not how a forum normally works.


Yeah. Lock this thread. Its a terrible name and wrong entirely.
That's just rude and the least helpful post I have seen in this community so far.

-M

[moostik]

I did change the title of the first post earlier, but it did not change the title of the thread though. I don't think the thread title can actually be changed.

[Trenloe]

I use the steam version of FGU, and there is a framerate counter in the top right corner.
What framerates do you usually see?


I did change the title of the first post earlier, but it did not change the title of the thread though. I don't think the thread title can actually be changed.
It can be changed by an admin. If you'd like the title changed, just let me know. Otherwise, we'll leave it as is.

[Zacchaeus]

No Discord overlay.
I use the steam version of FGU, and there is a framerate counter in the top right corner. In that sense there is an overlay as that is part of the Steam overlay.
The data folder is backed up to dropbox, but dropbox is always shut down completely during sessions.
-M
There isn't actually a Steam version; it's just a shortcut to the .exe file. Everything comes from Smiteworks.

I know the Steam overlay caused considerable problems with FG Classic so it may well be worth shutting that off completely to see if that might be the issue. Backing up to an external cloud source has also been known to cause considerable issues. Again it may be worth disabling the back up completely (I know you said that you close down Dropbox whilst running the game but even having the backup might be an issue if it's trying to back up and can't succeed).

Clearly with the specs you have; the connection you have; the small file sizes; the small campaign size; the usual things which are known to cause lag or FGU becoming unresponsive are not present here. So it does sound like some kind of conflict with something else that's running on your computer. As you said above there aren't a bunch of people reporting this kind of thing so something unique to your set up would seem to be the issue.

It may be worth disabling all of those things and uninstall FGU; then clean boot and resinstall.

[Zacchaeus]

I have to admit - this title showing up every day in new posts... not really relevant to what is being discussed in here. Makes it seem FGU is an unplayable mess 24/7 in the forums! I disagree! Bugs and sorting them out is legit though - wish the title was something else though.


Yeah. Lock this thread. Its a terrible name and wrong entirely.

The man has a problem, and whether the title is appropriate or not he still has a problem. Neither of your comments help resolve that problem.

[moostik]

Yes, I am considering removing everything FGU related and reinstall to a different disk, as well as picking a location for the data directory that is not backed up by Dropbox.
It's not a steam version per se, but having it installed via Steam does enable the Steam overlay.
The overlay can be disabled.

I see a constant 60 fps framerate. I used to see a bit higher framerates until i started using the /vsync 0 command.

Before I try anything else, I will run a session tonight, this time my discord bot as well as syrinscape and spotify will be running on a different system as to not interfere.¨

I'll return with the results.

Thank you all so far,

-M

[Trenloe]

I see a constant 60 fps framerate. I used to see a bit higher framerates until i started using the /vsync 0 command.
That's looking good in terms of limiting GPU activity.


Before I try anything else, I will run a session tonight, this time my discord bot as well as syrinscape and spotify will be running on a different system as to not interfere.¨
I think this is the correct next step. Fingers crossed you have a trouble free session!

[JohnD]

Yes, I am considering removing everything FGU related and reinstall to a different disk, as well as picking a location for the data directory that is not backed up by Dropbox.
It's not a steam version per se, but having it installed via Steam does enable the Steam overlay.
The overlay can be disabled.

I see a constant 60 fps framerate. I used to see a bit higher framerates until i started using the /vsync 0 command.

Before I try anything else, I will run a session tonight, this time my discord bot as well as syrinscape and spotify will be running on a different system as to not interfere.¨

I'll return with the results.

Thank you all so far,

-M

Have you tried my suggestion of the VISMAX: X where X is the number of feet each token can "see"? Anecdotally, this has helped me in every campaign, even with the beefy computer similar to what you have. May or may not be a small part of the solution.

Good luck with your next session!

[Dakadin]

Have you tried my suggestion of the VISMAX: X where X is the number of feet each token can "see"? Anecdotally, this has helped me in every campaign, even with the beefy computer similar to what you have. May or may not be a small part of the solution.

Good luck with your next session!

Thanks for pointing that out JohnD. He is using the VISMAX from what I saw.

[Moon Wizard]

What do you want the title to read? I can change it through the admin interface. I did not see a different title on the first post.

Regards,
JPG

[Dakadin]

He just corrected the spelling on the first post of "unplayable".

His game has been going for about 3 1/2 hours now and I haven't seen any comments about crashing so hopefully that is a good sign.

[moostik]

Hi all,

As it turns out, the problem was actually the Discord bot. Now that it's removed from my system and I'm streaming audio to the players from a different machine, I have absolutely zero issues at all.
We ran a 4 hour session in a dungeon with a fair bit of LOS, some dynamic lights, different vision variants for the tokens, individual fog of war, and up to about 25 combatants in the combat tracker.
Not a single freeze. Not even one slight delay. In other words it ran as well as I would expect on a system like mine.

Thank you for all your tips, I've implemented most of the fixes you have been suggesting (including @JohnD's VISIMAX tip), and I'm assuming all of it also helps the game session run very smoothly, because we all noticed how responsive everything now was.

For those who are a bit fed up with the title of the thread, fear no more - this issue is now RESOLVED

-M

[Rainbird]

Great news. Enjoy

[LordEntrails]

Yeah! Glad you got it sorted and that you let us know what the cause and solution was! Hopefully if this happens to someone else, we can get to the resolution quicker now :)

[Jiminimonka]

Hi all,

As it turns out, the problem was actually the Discord bot. Now that it's removed from my system and I'm streaming audio to the players from a different machine, I have absolutely zero issues at all.
We ran a 4 hour session in a dungeon with a fair bit of LOS, some dynamic lights, different vision variants for the tokens, individual fog of war, and up to about 25 combatants in the combat tracker.
Not a single freeze. Not even one slight delay. In other words it ran as well as I would expect on a system like mine.

Thank you for all your tips, I've implemented most of the fixes you have been suggesting (including @JohnD's VISIMAX tip), and I'm assuming all of it also helps the game session run very smoothly, because we all noticed how responsive everything now was.

For those who are a bit fed up with the title of the thread, fear no more - this issue is now RESOLVED

-M

Glad you got it sorted!

[Griogre]

Glad you got it working and good to confirm it was the Discord bot. That will probably come up more as more games begin using sound effects and mood music.

[Trenloe]

As it turns out, the problem was actually the Discord bot. Now that it's removed from my system and I'm streaming audio to the players from a different machine, I have absolutely zero issues at all.
That's fantastic news! So glad you found the issue, and also very glad you engaged the community to discuss your issues.

Is it a specific Discord bot that was causing the problem? It might be good to know so we can warn others.

[moostik]

That's fantastic news! So glad you found the issue, and also very glad you engaged the community to discuss your issues.

Is it a specific Discord bot that was causing the problem? It might be good to know so we can warn others.

I needed something that could stream any audio from my desktop directly to a premade discord bot that could join channels on my server. It is likely not in widespread use, as it takes some fiddling to set up including installing a virtual audio cable and using the discord developer portal to set up a bot, as well as run a java app on your desktop to stream sound to the bot.

This is what I'm using: https://github.com/BinkanSalaryman/Discord-Audio-Stream-Bot

It was the last thing I suspected could be the cause, because I have been using it for a couple of years now with a bunch of other programs including MapTool.

[LordEntrails]

Discord uses Unity right? Didn't we (the community) run into another Unity application that had a conflict with FG at one time? It was taking over mouse control/clicking or something if I remember?

[Zacchaeus]

This is jolly good news. Happy gaming!

[moostik]

Discord uses Unity right? Didn't we (the community) run into another Unity application that had a conflict with FG at one time? It was taking over mouse control/clicking or something if I remember?

Discord clientside is javascript, I don't think it uses any Unity

[Sulimo]

Discord uses Unity right? Didn't we (the community) run into another Unity application that had a conflict with FG at one time? It was taking over mouse control/clicking or something if I remember?

I seem to recall something like that being mentioned at some point, but I cannot recall the details.

The Windows Discord app appears to use Electron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_(software_framework)), iOS/Android seem to use React Native (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/React_Native).

[Zarestia]

I needed something that could stream any audio from my desktop directly to a premade discord bot that could join channels on my server. It is likely not in widespread use, as it takes some fiddling to set up including installing a virtual audio cable and using the discord developer portal to set up a bot, as well as run a java app on your desktop to stream sound to the bot.

This is what I'm using: https://github.com/BinkanSalaryman/Discord-Audio-Stream-Bot

It was the last thing I suspected could be the cause, because I have been using it for a couple of years now with a bunch of other programs including MapTool.

I can recommend this, works with every soruce which is playing locally through VBcable: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?66632-Discord-Bot-for-Syrinscape-Stereo-output-to-discord-using-Discord-Audio-Pipe

Direct Link: https://github.com/QiCuiHub/discord-audio-pipe/releases

[JohnD]

Nice to hear this has been resolved.

[celestian]

Hi all,

As it turns out, the problem was actually the Discord bot. Now that it's removed from my system and I'm streaming audio to the players from a different machine, I have absolutely zero issues at all.
We ran a 4 hour session in a dungeon with a fair bit of LOS, some dynamic lights, different vision variants for the tokens, individual fog of war, and up to about 25 combatants in the combat tracker.
Not a single freeze. Not even one slight delay. In other words it ran as well as I would expect on a system like mine.


This is one reason I keep asking for native sound support in FGU. I don't want to depend on 5 other apps to manage sound for my games ;(

Glad you were able to work out your issue!

[esmdev]

Hi all,

As it turns out, the problem was actually the Discord bot. Now that it's removed from my system and I'm streaming audio to the players from a different machine, I have absolutely zero issues at all.
We ran a 4 hour session in a dungeon with a fair bit of LOS, some dynamic lights, different vision variants for the tokens, individual fog of war, and up to about 25 combatants in the combat tracker.
Not a single freeze. Not even one slight delay. In other words it ran as well as I would expect on a system like mine.

Thank you for all your tips, I've implemented most of the fixes you have been suggesting (including @JohnD's VISIMAX tip), and I'm assuming all of it also helps the game session run very smoothly, because we all noticed how responsive everything now was.

For those who are a bit fed up with the title of the thread, fear no more - this issue is now RESOLVED

-M

So glad to hear that your situation was resolved! Hopefully the information gathered might help others avoid a similar situation in the future. :)