Super Frustrated with Fantasy Grounds

[ScottFromPortland]

I've been running a weekly game for a little over a year on Fantasy Grounds. I am constantly reminded of how disappointed I am with this product. :(
I spent hundreds of dollars for this product, yet I've seen very little effort provided to build out things as simple as a Ring of Protection. All the time I have to re-learn how to program in "custom" features that are basic ingredients in the core game. Super frustrating. Super inconsiderate. Super unprofessional.
I've decided to share my frustrations each time they spring up, so that folks who are considering purchasing this product can be warned about what they're gonna be up against if they invest the mind-numbing entry fee plus the cost of each of the sourcebooks they wish to include.
It's the purchase that keeps on costing.

For today's newest frustration:
I'm trying to build a new Ochre Jelly that's Gargantuan-sized. You can't simply edit the existing NPC to create a copy; no, that would be way too intuitive. Instead, I finally figured out how to drop an ochre jelly into the combat tracker, then take it back out. Yay! I can rename and edit it now!
Can I put it into an Encounter?... Heavens, no! There's an error message when I try.
I'm sure that there's some arcane solution to this... it seems like I've probably looked this up more than once in the past and waded through Forum messages to figure out the bass-ackwards method to do something as simple and common as creating a new version of a from-the-book NPC(monster).
Do I want to wade back through FG's Forums for the umpteenth time to track down how to do super-basic things? No, no I do not.
My experience with FG has been littered with moments like this. I am deeply dissatisfied with this product, and disgusted with how much money and time I've sunk into it.

Has this been anyone else's persistent experience with Fantasy Grounds?

[Zacchaeus]

To edit an existing NPC make a copy of it by dragging and dropping it back into the NPC list (you can do the same with anything else - juts in case you want to edit something else as well).

Once you have the copy you can edit whatever you want. And you can add it to any encounter you want.

As to changing a creature's size on the combat tracker open the size and reach category on the right hand side of the CT next to the creature and change the number in the size box. Medium is 5, Large is 10, Huge is 15 and gargantuan will be 20. You can then mouse over the token on the map (or on the CT) and whilst holding down CTRL scroll the middle mouse wheel to make it bigger or smaller.

As for creating effects for items there's a number of extensions which will help but the best way is to learn how to code your own effects. Here's some links to various resources that will help you:
https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996642031/5E+Effects+for+Advanced+Automation
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?74212-Updating-5e-effects-videos&p=654177#post654177

[OSKTTRPG]

I bought a unity license, six of WotC's core books, and ten core books from my favorite third party publisher.

As a player, I've played around twenty sessions in Fantasy Grounds with about five different DMs.

In every single game, play has been stalled because Fantasy Grounds is not behaving as expected.

I know players who passionately dislike Fantasy Grounds.

I keep hoping that someday I'll feel skilled enough to DM a game in Fantasy Grounds, but when I see so many experienced DMs struggling to keep their games flowing because of Fantasy Ground's technical complexity, my hopes are dashed.

It seems to me that people who have been playing with Fantasy Grounds for years or decades already enjoy it. I've also noticed that people with computer programming skills seem to like it.

This weekend, I am deciding whether to purchase modules that have been pre-configured for Fantasy Grounds or if I should purchase the PDFs instead and manually build them into another virtual tabletop.

I haven't made a decision quite yet, but I think I'll be happier manually converting PDFs to modules on simpler platforms than trying to solve technical problems beyond my abilities during game sessions.

[SilentRuin]

I love Fantasy Grounds. Of course I took the time to understand it first, and as long as I follow the rules of how things work it works great. That entails watching videos, asking questions on discord and these forums - basically getting the lay of the land (starting here is good (https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996639165/Fantasy+Grounds+Unity+User+Manual)). Now, I stick to 5E for my ruleset games and have modules for PHB, DMG, MM, and Monsters of the Multiverse to meet all my needs for NPCs etc. that I don't just make myself. I also take the huge risk, yes EXTENSIONS = RISK, of using extensions with FGU though I stick mostly to ones I wrote so that I have full control of things when FGU gets updated and breaks them (remember extensions = RISK? It is known) and can fix them myself as opposed to being dependent on waiting for someone else to fix them.

But really raw FGU by itself with a few modules is how I started and learned the game, which is the best way. Now if you just leap in and try to intuitively create things with no concept of the rules or how things interact? Then... man that would have gotten me lost and frustrated quick. Fortunately, I understood that FGU is the most powerful DM tool out there which gives me the maximum lazy and ease once I learn the ropes out of any D&D game assist software out there. But it does have a learning curve to reach that.

Skip the learning curve and play by osmosis? Some maybe can do this. I couldn't have.

Woe be to those that try to skip the learning curve for sure.

Gist is, at this point running a game is dirt simple and easy. I can concentrate on content and game play alone now. But the learning curve? It is known.

[Egheal]

hooops, I'm late.

[Zarestia]

I've been GMing on FG & FGU for a few years and got three other GMs to convert to FGU.
Not one single session was halted or cancelled (except due to player/GM unavailability).

The coding syntax in other VTTs (like R20 or FVTT) seem harder to learn and write to me than those in FGU.

[ScottFromPortland]

I'm an experience programmer, and an experienced DM. I've spent many, many hours learning how to use Fantasy Grounds. I've built many, many "custom" solutions to things like a Ring of Protection, as well as *actual* custom solutions like this Gargantuan Ochre Jelly. I'm not a noob without any knowledge; I've spent many, many hours learning this bass-ackwards system. And it still, reliably and repeatedly, proves itself obtuse, arcane, and utterly non-intuitive.

Zacchaeus: Now that I've built my Gargantuan Ochre Jelly, will your suggestion of duplicating it in the NPC lists require me to re-build all of that, I assume?...
Very frustrating how often I have to repeat work in FG coding. It's often getting to the point where I just do without the functionality, because repeating my efforts over and over has become excruciatingly common. I've been doing this for over a year now and it's still super frustrating each time I have to re-figure out the weird methodology your system demands.
Summary: Your product is so complex and non-intuitive that I often find myself choosing to ignore potential functionality because it's so frustrating to track down and re-learn over and over again.
> but the best way is to learn how to code your own effects. Here's some links to various resources that will help you:
This seems to be FG's solution to every complaint about how non-intuitive and clunky their system is. "Spend many hours specializing in our horrid system. We don't do much of the work for you, we just charge you an arm and a leg for a complex system that's hard to use. We encourage you to pay other users to provide solutions for you, but it is certainly not our job to provide solutions for our product's inadequacies."
I've spent so, so much time learning how to code my own effects. It's super-lame that I have to re-learn how to code my own effects so very frequently. I'm super sick of it; I've invested almost as much time in FG's coding as I have in building and running my games. It absolutely should not take this much overhead and upkeep time. This product reliably fails to satisfy.

I would like to warn those who are thinking of using this system: I'm an experienced programmer and a super-experienced Game Master, and I am consistently horrified and frustrated at the ineptitude of Fantasy Grounds at delivering basic functionality.
Plus, the amount of money FG costs, while missing so incredibly much pre-built functionality, is truly ridiculous.

SilentRuin, I appreciate your appreciation of FG, and I thank you for your comments. :) I do recognize just how powerful and customizable FG can be. I imagine it's that very complexity that makes it so unwieldy and confusing.
For those who have the desire, and manage to put in the monumental efforts to earn a Doctorate of Fantasy Grounds, I am sure it's wonderful. When the weird conflicts and inconsistencies pop up, you are probably well-equipped to troubleshoot and fix them.
I only earned a Bachelor's degree in Fantasy Grounds, and when its quirks pop up in my building (or even worse, during gameplay) they shut me down until I can re-educate myself by slogging once more through voluminous Forum threads... many of which don't apply to Unity. I can't even tell you how much time I've wasted trying to apply an original FG solution to a Unity FG problem. *shudder*

[SilentRuin]

I can't explain the difference in game play experience then. My last session my players commented on how easy it is to be a player in the game and how surprised they are that it works so well (we've been using it for 2 years plus). Now does this mean we don't have hiccups? It does not. I just recognize them and we work around the rare times they occur. For sure I don't allow them to interfere with the flow of the game.

Last one was when I accidently deleted something from combat tracker that I was trying to delete an effect from. The kobold had been on a platform over a pit and had just been kicked to the edge of it by a player. I had the kobold attack and then - he disappeared off the map. Obviously, he had lost his balance and fell into the pit. The players loved it. But it was a hiccup. That I worked right on past so I did not wreck the game by concentrating on it.

Technically, very few hiccups we have had are not my own fault for doing something outside of the FGU game mechanics. Or my own issues with an extension (RISK - so I expect those if I used them - if I did not accept the RISK I would never use any extension in my games).

In the end, we have all had hiccups when we are in a rush DMing something but the difference probably between your games and mine are that I understand where the pitfalls are - and when I hit one - I don't let it stop the game (if I am confused over what happened its always a good time to take our break for 10 min). But as I said - in two plus years of playing I have never had a game "stopped" due to any hiccup and most hiccups were my own fault for doing something incorrectly within the framework of FGU.

[Trenloe]

Now that I've built my Gargantuan Ochre Jelly, will your suggestion of duplicating it in the NPC lists require me to re-build all of that, I assume?...
Assuming you've edited the ochre jelly in the Combat Tracker - you can just drag/drop from the CT back to the NPC list to make a copy of that NPC. This is pretty standard functionality throughout FG - drag a link to add that record to the target, with the resulting functionality depending on the trarget; for example: makes a link to the base record if it's a story entry (or other fields that allow links), adds a class to a PC, creates a copy of the record in a data list, etc..

[Zacchaeus]

As regards the Gargantuan Jelly. When you place an NPC onto the CT it creates a copy of that NPC on the CT (since there could be more than one having the original wouldn't work, since if that one got damaged then they'd all get damaged etc).

If I understand what you did you placed a normal Jelly onto the CT and then dragged it from there into the NPC list. Doing so will have created a copy in the NPC list - which is the one I assume you edited. I've just tested that and the edited copy can be added to an encounter without issue; so I am unsure as to what caused your issue. My first thought would be an extension but I'm not sure since I don't have enough information to go on. So, in summary, you should be able to add your customised NPC to an encounter or directly onto the CT. But if you are getting an error then yes you'll need to recreate it unless you can figure out what is causing the error.

[SilentRuin]

Another must do is if you build custom maps you always test them with a client (you can log in as host - then on same machine log in as client) and run around the map with client to make sure you did not make any "crazy" spots in it. You never wait till "game day" to test a new map.

[LordEntrails]

Has this been anyone else's persistent experience with Fantasy Grounds?
Not for me. In part because I learn about 6 new programs a year, and have been doing so for 20+ years now. BUT, that doesn't mean FG should be intuitive for everyone. About 1/3 of those programs I learn I never "grok". They just don't have a UI that is intuitive to me. I suspect FG is the ame for you.


I've spent many, many hours learning how to use Fantasy Grounds. I've built many, many "custom" solutions to things like a Ring of Protection, as well as *actual* custom solutions like this Gargantuan Ochre Jelly. I'm not a noob without any knowledge; I've spent many, many hours learning this bass-ackwards system. And it still, reliably and repeatedly, proves itself obtuse, arcane, and utterly non-intuitive.

I don't mean this in a defend FG sort of way. But you haven't learned FG is you are struggling to create a custom NPC. That's not a criticism of you. Its just a realization that FG has a different UI approach than makes sense to you.

You are not alone in that.

It's not uncommon for some folks to say they don't "grok" the FG UI. But there are other like me that find it very intuitive and easy to use. People are people, and we are all different. I say this same thing when I teach people other programs (CAD, PDM, PLM, CRM, etc) - Forget how you think the program should work, figure out how the programmers think, and how the program acutally works. There is usually a logic there, even if its not intuitive to you. And if you can't, its not necessarily a knock on you (or the program), but it may just be that you need to realize the program is always going to be one you struggle with (for me, DOORS and RTC are two programs I will never be comfortable with), and if the struggle is not worth it for you, move one to something else and don't let the sunk cost keep you from what is going to server you better in the long run.

[Jiminimonka]

I've been running a weekly game for a little over a year on Fantasy Grounds. I am constantly reminded of how disappointed I am with this product. :(
I spent hundreds of dollars for this product, yet I've seen very little effort provided to build out things as simple as a Ring of Protection. All the time I have to re-learn how to program in "custom" features that are basic ingredients in the core game. Super frustrating. Super inconsiderate. Super unprofessional.
I've decided to share my frustrations each time they spring up, so that folks who are considering purchasing this product can be warned about what they're gonna be up against if they invest the mind-numbing entry fee plus the cost of each of the sourcebooks they wish to include.
It's the purchase that keeps on costing.

For today's newest frustration:
I'm trying to build a new Ochre Jelly that's Gargantuan-sized. You can't simply edit the existing NPC to create a copy; no, that would be way too intuitive. Instead, I finally figured out how to drop an ochre jelly into the combat tracker, then take it back out. Yay! I can rename and edit it now!
Can I put it into an Encounter?... Heavens, no! There's an error message when I try.
I'm sure that there's some arcane solution to this... it seems like I've probably looked this up more than once in the past and waded through Forum messages to figure out the bass-ackwards method to do something as simple and common as creating a new version of a from-the-book NPC(monster).
Do I want to wade back through FG's Forums for the umpteenth time to track down how to do super-basic things? No, no I do not.
My experience with FG has been littered with moments like this. I am deeply dissatisfied with this product, and disgusted with how much money and time I've sunk into it.

Has this been anyone else's persistent experience with Fantasy Grounds?

No, it has not been my experience at all.

[Griogre]

I've been running a weekly game for a little over a year on Fantasy Grounds. I am constantly reminded of how disappointed I am with this product. :(
I spent hundreds of dollars for this product, yet I've seen very little effort provided to build out things as simple as a Ring of Protection. All the time I have to re-learn how to program in "custom" features that are basic ingredients in the core game. Super frustrating. Super inconsiderate. Super unprofessional.
I've decided to share my frustrations each time they spring up, so that folks who are considering purchasing this product can be warned about what they're gonna be up against if they invest the mind-numbing entry fee plus the cost of each of the sourcebooks they wish to include.
It's the purchase that keeps on costing.

For today's newest frustration:
I'm trying to build a new Ochre Jelly that's Gargantuan-sized. You can't simply edit the existing NPC to create a copy; no, that would be way too intuitive. Instead, I finally figured out how to drop an ochre jelly into the combat tracker, then take it back out. Yay! I can rename and edit it now!
Can I put it into an Encounter?... Heavens, no! There's an error message when I try.
I'm sure that there's some arcane solution to this... it seems like I've probably looked this up more than once in the past and waded through Forum messages to figure out the bass-ackwards method to do something as simple and common as creating a new version of a from-the-book NPC(monster).
Do I want to wade back through FG's Forums for the umpteenth time to track down how to do super-basic things? No, no I do not.
My experience with FG has been littered with moments like this. I am deeply dissatisfied with this product, and disgusted with how much money and time I've sunk into it.

Has this been anyone else's persistent experience with Fantasy Grounds?

No it has not been my experience at all, either. I've used all three iterations of FG and, yes, it has greatly increased in complexity as it has greatly increased in power. Lord Entails had a excellent response so I won't repeat it.

My only insight is that as a fellow professional programmer and former game designer you may have a forest / trees problem since you seem to be trying to solve things at a very low level. To do stuff in FG you usually want to do three things: drag and drop, right click and use a context menu, add a effect script to a character sheet or the combat tracker.

This works for you custom Jelly. The monster manual data is locked so users' can't inadvertently destroy it.

What you are trying to do determines the best way to create a gargantuan sized ooze. If its a one off in combat as the result of a spell or other magic and the jelly is already on the tracker you would just edit the size category and change the hp.

If you want a custom monster for an encounter you are making and you want to use it again then you would drag and drop the jelly into the uncategorised list of npcs to get an unlockable copy. Then you would unlock the copy and change whatever you wanted, ie size and name and then just use that version of the monster in your encounter.

More elaborately, if you want to make your custom monster available for all your games you would put it in a custom campaign and export it so you could open the jelly in any of your campaigns.

If you would like to sit in on one of my 5E sessions and watch or just connect and talk - PM me.

[Milke]

I love Fantasy Grounds. I'm sorry to hear that the OP is having such a frustrating time.
The only issue I ever had (which is leaps & bounds better these days) was lag or slow loading times. But the programmers have done a lot to streamline the coding and it's pretty smooth anymore.
I only reply because the OP asked what others' experiences had been.
I find it to be fairly intuitive (I play PF2). The only real learning curve for me was creating custom effects. But there are some good wikis for that. You can copy and edit anything. Creatures, weapons, items.
And any time I've ever had a problem, all I had to do was make a concisely worded post, and one of the programmers or an experienced community member got back to me quickly, and always respectfully.
It's unfortunate that you're having these issues. I hope you get it figured out!

[WinterSoldier7]

Apart from Roll20, which I didn't like, I have no experience at all with other platforms, so can't really say how it compares. I also have no idea how to programme and came to FGU as a new DM two years ago, so I was learning the game AND the platform.

Not going to lie, I had to do homework to learn it. I still do, sometimes, need to scan the forums for various issues I have or things I want to do, but don't know how. Thankfully, getting responses on these forums takes next to no time at all and everyone is very helpful.

I learned as I went though and have quite enjoyed knowing more and more about it, as it's meant I have gradually started adding more and more ideas.

So, even though my experience of FGU hasn't been the same as yours, I believe I can at least sympathise with what you are saying.

[ddavison]

FGU has the capability to track and manage a lot of custom effects, but you don’t have to use them. You can just manually adjust things, like simply adding a untyped bonus to AC instead of adding an effect for a ring of protection. In most places, there is room for a miscellaneous bonus. You can just use these and the modifier box to make simple adjustments.

Discord is a good resource for on the fly feedback from other DMs if you want to get an effect string figured out. Make sure to click on the help icon to look at the wiki for effects as well because there are examples there. I would recommend keeping the game moving forward with simple adjustments during the session and then go back after the session and create the effect to replace the simple bonus. You will probably remember it better for the next time if you aren’t trying to figure something out in the heat of the moment.

[Temmpest]

I love Fantasy Grounds. Of course I took the time to understand it first, and as long as I follow the rules of how things work it works great. That entails watching videos, asking questions on discord and these forums - basically getting the lay of the land (starting here is good (https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996639165/Fantasy+Grounds+Unity+User+Manual)). Now, I stick to 5E for my ruleset games and have modules for PHB, DMG, MM, and Monsters of the Multiverse to meet all my needs for NPCs etc. that I don't just make myself. I also take the huge risk, yes EXTENSIONS = RISK, of using extensions with FGU though I stick mostly to ones I wrote so that I have full control of things when FGU gets updated and breaks them (remember extensions = RISK? It is known) and can fix them myself as opposed to being dependent on waiting for someone else to fix them.

But really raw FGU by itself with a few modules is how I started and learned the game, which is the best way. Now if you just leap in and try to intuitively create things with no concept of the rules or how things interact? Then... man that would have gotten me lost and frustrated quick. Fortunately, I understood that FGU is the most powerful DM tool out there which gives me the maximum lazy and ease once I learn the ropes out of any D&D game assist software out there. But it does have a learning curve to reach that.

Skip the learning curve and play by osmosis? Some maybe can do this. I couldn't have.

Woe be to those that try to skip the learning curve for sure.

Gist is, at this point running a game is dirt simple and easy. I can concentrate on content and game play alone now. But the learning curve? It is known.

What he said.

[Agamon]

The only frustration I suffer from FG is self-inflicted from applying too many extensions.

[Booker Grimm]

In our online game we have the odd frustating occurance. A PC was constantly rolling with disadvantage and none of us could work out why. But something with his character had gotten corrupted, so I just copied the info from his broken character to a new one mid game. It took about 5 minutes, but the players had a break and the problem was solved.

Found nothing truly game breaking, some have instances where maps display incorrectly or tokens won't show on one player's map, but on the whole I'm happy with the product. It is too expensive though, and requires learning syntax if you want to get the most out of effects, but with the latest updates most of the main effects are done for you.

[Zacchaeus]

In our online game we have the odd frustating occurance. A PC was constantly rolling with disadvantage and none of us could work out why. But something with his character had gotten corrupted, so I just copied the info from his broken character to a new one mid game. It took about 5 minutes, but the players had a break and the problem was solved.


This would almost certainly be caused by the armour proficiency in the combat calculation data screen being unchecked. If that isn't checked then that is telling FG that the character is not proficient with the armour they are wearing and so rolls with disadvantage.

[jaharmi]

I have had a handful of sessions across two campaigns (DM for both) where I had problems with FG. I think all of them were due to a single extension or a conflict between extensions. I enjoy getting and using extensions, although there is also a learning curve to benefit from each one, and I currently accept the drawbacks.

FG has been useful for managing games. It’s really nice to be able to fire it up and have most things where I left them from the last session — minus windows and their positions, really.

I have also had FG do surprising things with some really helpful results. I can’t think of specific examples, but they tend to be of the “why is NPC or PC rolling with advantage/disadvantage?” In those case, I’ve always been able to backtrack and figure out the why, and more often than not, an effect was applying that we would have forgotten about if playing without FG. In rare cases, it was probably the same thing, except we forgot to remove an effect or apply a new effect to cancel out something else.

I think there could be a few more UI affordances, like having additional useful functions in the right-click radial menus in certain situations. This may be a bit more discoverable than the use of drag and drop for some scenarios.

1. “Undo” command to undo the last action / set of rolls. This would MASSIVELY assist my tables. I guess we make too many mistakes.
1a. An “Undo” command for the DM that appears next to output in the Chat window would also really help here.
2. “Clone” or “duplicate” could help the “edit an NPC” task. Then again, an “Edit” radial menu command for NPCs could do the clone/duplicate and open the duplicate to save a bunch of steps.

[Zacchaeus]

2. “Clone” or “duplicate” could help the “edit an NPC” task. Then again, an “Edit” radial menu command for NPCs could do the clone/duplicate and open the duplicate to save a bunch of steps.

Not sure what you mean here. You can duplicate an NPC now by dragging it and dropping it back into the NPC list which will give you an exact copy. You can also drag and drop an NPC on the CT back into the CT and it will create an exact copy.

[Cyrian]

I think he means that yes, dragging and dropping an NPC makes a duplicate, but it's not intuitive to do that if you didn't already know that. Dragging and dropping a file in the same folder in an operating system doesn't make a copy of a file. It would be more easily found if there was a radial menu that popped up when right-clicking on something in a table, such as an NPC, and having options for Copy, etc.

[Dire Weasel]

1. “Undo” command to undo the last action / set of rolls. This would MASSIVELY assist my tables. I guess we make too many mistakes.

If you're playing 5e, I recommend 5e Undo Last Damage/Heal (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/719/view).

[Jesse0317]

I can't explain the difference in game play experience then. My last session my players commented on how easy it is to be a player in the game and how surprised they are that it works so well (we've been using it for 2 years plus). Now does this mean we don't have hiccups? It does not. I just recognize them and we work around the rare times they occur. For sure I don't allow them to interfere with the flow of the game.

Last one was when I accidently deleted something from combat tracker that I was trying to delete an effect from. The kobold had been on a platform over a pit and had just been kicked to the edge of it by a player. I had the kobold attack and then - he disappeared off the map. Obviously, he had lost his balance and fell into the pit. The players loved it. But it was a hiccup. That I worked right on past so I did not wreck the game by concentrating on it.

Technically, very few hiccups we have had are not my own fault for doing something outside of the FGU game mechanics. Or my own issues with an extension (RISK - so I expect those if I used them - if I did not accept the RISK I would never use any extension in my games).

In the end, we have all had hiccups when we are in a rush DMing something but the difference probably between your games and mine are that I understand where the pitfalls are - and when I hit one - I don't let it stop the game (if I am confused over what happened its always a good time to take our break for 10 min). But as I said - in two plus years of playing I have never had a game "stopped" due to any hiccup and most hiccups were my own fault for doing something incorrectly within the framework of FGU.

I can echo the same sentiment as SilentRuin, it took me a bit to learn the basics as I'm someone that doesn't like to read instructions.

The only times I've had to stop a game is when I needed to do lookup a rule but for the most part I usually look and see if I can get an extension to do what I need.