Alternative to Paypal?

[Toblakai]

Has SmiteWorks looked into an alternative to Paypal. After the recent fiasco, I no longer will be using Paypal and would still like to purchase products from them.

[Laerun]

Is this for a monthly sub?
The only thing that might require PayPal is a monthly subscription. Most other purchases can use either/or.

Best of luck.

[Zacchaeus]

Is this for a monthly sub?
The only thing that might require PayPal is a monthly subscription. Most other purchases can use either/or.

Best of luck.
Are you sure about this? At checkout the only option I have is PayPal if I buy via the store. Steam has more options but I think the only option for store purchases is PayPal.

Maybe, of course, PayPal is the only option for overseas customers?

Also I believe that you don't actually need a PayPal account - some kind of guest payment method I believe?

[LordEntrails]

You can use a guest/pay by credit card option when using paypal rather than using a paypal account itself.

[Toblakai]

You can use a guest/pay by credit card option when using paypal rather than using a paypal account itself.

This will not work for me. It's not the whole saved CC, etc. I do not want Paypal making a dime off of me. I had purchased FG through Steam and transferred it, I just buy modules for PF1, and other packages. Can packages purchased on Steam work if I have unlinked them?

[LordEntrails]

Any purchases via Steam will require your Steam and FG accounts to be linked. But they won't be linked to any PayPal account. Further public technical details should probably be obtained by contacting support directly.

[damned]

The PayPal AUP is worth a read.
Last week they added "promote misinformation" as another reason that they could in their sole discretion fine you $2,500 from your account.

https://web.archive.org/web/20221008080650/https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full

[LordEntrails]

The PayPal AUP is worth a read.
Last week they added "promote misinformation" as another reason that they could in their sole discretion fine you $2,500 from your account.

https://web.archive.org/web/20221008080650/https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full
And they reverted it today. Claiming that they never intended to change it.
Not sure how that happens, but big corporations are known to screw up at times where one group does something without anyone else approving of it.
https://fortune.com/2022/10/10/paypal-users-fine-misinformation-aup-error-confusion/
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/paypal-stock-plummets-after-controversy-over-misinformation-fine/

[damned]

$100 billion companies dont change their AUPs and publish them without the changes being approved by lawyers and executives.

They havent really changed their policy, they have just removed the part about the fine. They will still suspend your account and freeze your balance if they dont like what you write.

[Laerun]

Are you sure about this? At checkout, the only option I have is PayPal if I buy via the store. Steam has more options but I think the only option for store purchases is PayPal.

Maybe, of course, PayPal is the only option for overseas customers.

Also, I believe you don't need a PayPal account - some kind of guest payment method, I believe?

Edit: Zacch is correct, Paypal only; I meant to mention Steam; bundle pricing has to be done one platform or the other, and cannot be mixed and matched in regards to bundle pricing. Email customer service about your current dilemma.

Cheers

[JohnD]

Personally, I think any company that ties their revenue stream to just one provider is asking for trouble eventually.

IMO it would make a huge amount of sense for SmiteWorks to at least have a second option that people can use.

You never know when something you or someone associated with you said 15 years ago will run afoul of the lunacy that pervades our culture today and poof... Smiteworks has no payment processing set up and has to scramble after the fact to mitigate damage to their business.

damned said it right; companies the size and $ value of PayPal don't just make oopsie "accidents" like this - it's reasonable to assume this will come up again sometime in the future, and the threat of account suspension is still there. Even if for some strange reason you agree with the thought process behind the "mistake", this crap should be a concern because sooner or later the worm will turn because this crap always needs a "guilty group" to persecute. PayPal assumed this would fly under the radar and they could pander and bask on virtue points handed out by a small segment of society.

IMO Doug/John would be well advised to be exploring alternative payment processing companies and let their customers decide which option suits their needs appropriately.

[ddavison]

Currently Steam is the only options outside of PayPal from our store. There are lots of things I would like about moving off of PayPal, but it is built into too much of our system currently (transactions, accounting, reporting, payments to publishers/community devs/affiliates/etc.) I have looked at other options. They solve some problems but likely introduce others. It would be a major project to switch things over and we would still have to keep access for all of the historical transactions we have on file. For all its warts, PayPal works in most countries around the world.

[Pendrake]

I was about to buy some gold for the Forge, but PayPal is the only option. I have closed my PayPal accounts because the "Oopsie" announcement should have never been drafted, let alone been through meetings, reviewed by legal, likely revised multiple times, then sent for publication. I don't believe that private companies should be "morality police".

I would love to give SmiteWorks my money for imaginary gold coins. Please let me do so. I didn't see an option for this on Steam.

[ddavison]

Unfortunately, this is the only option available at this time and we don’t have any plans to add another payment option in the near term. I’m sorry for the inconvenience.

[The Decepticon]

Unfortunately, this is the only option available at this time and we don’t have any plans to add another payment option in the near term. I’m sorry for the inconvenience.

Hopefully SmiteWorks looks at other options in the near future. I can only imagine the issues of linking accounts with purchases if it is by credit card, bank accounts, etc. and understand why it is not easy. Personally, I will still use PayPal for my SmiteWork purchases, but this could hurt the company if PayPal decides to escalate that policy in the future and there are no other options (I don't use Steam so I can't talk to how easy that is) on the SmiteWorks website.

[Jesse0317]

This seems to be one of those lesser of two evils scenario. I for one will still use Paypal but will limit my use until they've proven to be a neutral party once again. While I dislike Paypal's policy I'm hesitant to punish other company's such as Smiteworks because they are just trying to do business and be efficient as possible.

Also, just a friendly reminder that in using FG Unity they run that the hosting service that lets us run games without all that port forwarding we needed to do using FGC and have not charged a cent for it yet.

Just my two cents.

[BangsNaughtyBits]

I also would like to see an integrated alternative to PayPal.

Using Stream will screw with bundles as I have only purchased through the FG site, hoping more money ends up in the Smiteworks coffers to inspire more solid content. Unless Smiteworks has a work around for the bundle issue, Steam is not a solution.

An Example. I go to the Forge. I click Treasury. I click Buy Gold. I am presented with a Buy Now With Paypal button, only.


And if I attempt to purchase content directly from the FG main site you eventually get to

You will next be directed to the PayPal web site to continue the purchase by entering your billing information.

I am directly asking for an alternative payment option to using Paypal with your service. The above directly fails this.

Please investigate other options.

[Zacchaeus]

I also would like to see an integrated alternative to PayPal.

Using Stream will screw with bundles as I have only purchased through the FG site, hoping more money ends up in the Smiteworks coffers to inspire more solid content. Unless Smiteworks has a work around for the bundle issue, Steam is not a solution.

An Example. I go to the Forge. I click Treasury. I click Buy Gold. I am presented with a Buy Now With Paypal button, only.


And if I attempt to purchase content directly from the FG main site you eventually get to

You will next be directed to the PayPal web site to continue the purchase by entering your billing information.

I am directly asking for an alternative payment option to using Paypal with your service. The above directly fails this.

Please investigate other options.

The answer has already been given in posts #12 and #14 above; particularly post #12.

[Mytherus]

You know the funny thing for me is getting into using fantasy grounds was why I got PayPal before then I Resisted hard to try not to use the service. Now I added it to my steam account as well.

As much as I think the recent PayPal flub is both egregious and ridiculous I’ll keep to using it for steam snd smiteworks only. I also wonder how PayPal would know if someone did use “misinformation” to fine them? I mean if you are careless sure but couldn’t someone just post around the internet with an account that has zero ties to their PayPal? Anyway good night.

[Transbot9]

And they reverted it today. Claiming that they never intended to change it.
Not sure how that happens, but big corporations are known to screw up at times where one group does something without anyone else approving of it.
https://fortune.com/2022/10/10/paypal-users-fine-misinformation-aup-error-confusion/
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/paypal-stock-plummets-after-controversy-over-misinformation-fine/

And they've put it back in again as soon as the news cycle ended. Honestly, Fantasy Grounds is the only reason I keep my old PayPal account open. Their terms of service has gotten increasingly vague over the years.

[ddavison]

Did they really? Do you happen to have a link to the policy on their site? I'm trying to locate it firsthand so I can read what it says.

[ddavison]

Okay, I think I found it:

All legal agreements for PayPal are listed here:
https://www.paypal.com/us/legalhub/home

These are the main ones where the language exists.

User Agreement:
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_US

Acceptable Use Policy:
https://www.paypal.com/us/legalhub/acceptableuse-full?locale.x=en_US


I will have to look into that further.

[Pendrake]

You know the funny thing for me is getting into using fantasy grounds was why I got PayPal before then I Resisted hard to try not to use the service. Now I added it to my steam account as well.

As much as I think the recent PayPal flub is both egregious and ridiculous I’ll keep to using it for steam snd smiteworks only. I also wonder how PayPal would know if someone did use “misinformation” to fine them? I mean if you are careless sure but couldn’t someone just post around the internet with an account that has zero ties to their PayPal? Anyway good night.

Since this thread was just bumped...

Here's the issue: the big one is - This has no due process. This is a fine they put on your account if they THINK you said something. They know that you did a transaction with Smiteworks with the username "Mytherus". Lets say there is another "Mytherus" on [insert bad site here]. And that guy said some very unpopular things... They may just fine you, and you have to dig up lawyers and fight their lawyers to get your money back.

This is why I removed my accounts from PayPal. My name is not unique, and I don't want to have money yanked out of any of my accounts because some 3rd party feels like I might have done something and I have to fight to get it back.

[BangsNaughtyBits]

No. It was a misunderstanding by the original source for this article. There have been $2500 for certain expression going back years. It's unrelated to the recent "misinformation" idiocy.

[BangsNaughtyBits]

Hmmm, this didn't post for some reason.

This is incorrect. The original source was mistaken. The idiocy regarding "misinformation" has NOT been reintroduced.

The original source for this doesn't seem to be aware that there have been $2500 fines in the Paypal PUA for I believe over two years. While extremely concerning that a financial institution thinks it has the right to monitor its users in this way, it is an old issue. There are many with the PUA.

Regardless, Smiteworks does need to provide an alternative payment mechanism to Fantasy Grounds. Eventually tying their business to these disturbing business practices will end up preventing its customers from giving them money.

[ddavison]

The only fine I see is the section listed below from the User Agreement and the Acceptable Use Policy. The fines they charge appear to be limited by whatever balance you have, so the primary concern would be for people like us who are sellers and who may hold a balance on the platform. These don't appear to apply to buyers at all. They are claiming that they can hold or fine against a seller's existing balance there. As a consumer, I pretty much never carried any balance with PayPal.

I bolded the parts that I think are pertinent.



If you are a seller and receive funds for transactions that violate the Acceptable Use Policy, then in addition to being subject to the above actions you will be liable to PayPal for the amount of PayPal’s damages caused by your violation of the Acceptable Use Policy. You acknowledge and agree that $2,500.00 U.S. dollars per violation of the Acceptable Use Policy is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPal’s actual damages - including, but not limited to, internal administrative costs incurred by PayPal to monitor and track violations, damage to PayPal’s brand and reputation, and penalties imposed upon PayPal by its business partners resulting from a user’s violation - considering all currently existing circumstances, including the relationship of the sum to the range of harm to PayPal that reasonably could be anticipated because, due to the nature of the violations of the Acceptable Use Policy, actual damages would be impractical or extremely difficult to calculate. PayPal may deduct such damages directly from any existing balance in any PayPal account you control.


From the Acceptable Use Policy:


Last updated on September 21, 2021

You are independently responsible for complying with all applicable laws in all of your actions related to your use of PayPal's services, regardless of the purpose of the use. In addition, you must adhere to the terms of this Acceptable Use Policy. Violation of this Acceptable Use Policy constitutes a violation of the PayPal User Agreement and may subject you to damages, including liquidated damages of $2,500.00 U.S. dollars per violation, which may be debited directly from your PayPal account(s) as outlined in the User Agreement (see “Restricted Activities and Holds” section of the PayPal User Agreement).


The page leads with "Last updated on September 21, 2021."

https://www.paypal.com/us/legalhub/acceptableuse-full?locale.x=en_US



Provide false, inaccurate or misleading information;

Source: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_US#s4-restricted-activities

One of the violations listed is to provide false, inaccurate or misleading information. Based on my reading of those three documents, I think it only appears to apply if you are a seller and you received funds for a transaction that provided false, inaccurate, or misleading information. Unfortunately, there are sellers that are essentially fraudulent. This would seem to be meant to cover them.

Due Process?
There is a section on the User Agreement titled "Agreement to Arbitrate". It is pretty heavily slanted in PayPal's favor, but it does detail a dispute resolution process. Unfortunately, this sort of language is pretty common with a lot of large companies. They likely have better lawyers than any other party that would be in a dispute with them. I kind of assume the same will be true for any other payment processor large enough to provide the services we need.

I guess my main takeaway after reading through these again is that these are fairly standard language by big business. We can basically take it or leave it after we conduct a risk assessment for our business. I'm not seeing a risk for buyers in the language.

[thorun09]

So, when purchasing from the forge I can only purchase gold from paypal. I will look at linking steam and FGU, as I did with Paizo and FGU. Hopefully, I'll have better options to continue to purchase exts, and products. Always liked FG, and hope to have options to continue to grow the games I run and play.

[Larson]

Please add me to the list of
people requesting a “non-PayPal option!”

[Sulimo]

See posts #12 (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75430-Alternative-to-Paypal&p=665055&viewfull=1#post665055) and. #14 (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?75430-Alternative-to-Paypal&p=665190&viewfull=1#post665190).

[Jiminimonka]

Banks have always been the pinnacle of morales and integrity. Remember 2008?

[pablomaz]

Yeah, PayPal is not the best option for me neither, because of exchange rates...

[Trenloe]

Yeah, PayPal is not the best option for me neither, because of exchange rates...
Can you buy through Steam?

[Pendrake]

Can you buy through Steam?

Forge Gold Coins aren't an option in Steam last I checked.

[pablomaz]

Can you buy through Steam?

Sure! I only buy content through Steam. If not for Steam prices/exchange rates to Brazilian Reais, I wouldn't own a fraction of the content I got.

I was talking about The Forge, specifically.

[Trenloe]

Sure! I only buy content through Steam. If not for Steam prices/exchange rates to Brazilian Reais, I wouldn't own a fraction of the content I got.

I was talking about The Forge, specifically.
Thanks for clarifying that you're referring to Forge purchases only in your case.