Why is the Beginner Box (and other PF2 products) so expensive?

[BlueDrake]

As the gateway purchase into the system $40 seems a bit steep for a VTT edition. I get why the physical box is $40 with the printed books, dice and tokens, but I don't get why it's $40 here where there are no printing or warehousing costs. yes I know there are server costs, but they're not as costly as printing/warehousing.

I guess this is aimed as much at Paizo as Smiteworks, but maybe consider lowering the price for the PF2 products on FG. The 5E D&D stuff is not as expensive as the physical books, why is the PF2 stuff so high?

My group wants to shift from 5E to PF2, but the cost difference is making that a tough choice. After using FG for close to a decade we're considering switching VTTs to try PF2.

[hawkwind]

they do include a pdf from pazio or if you already have already purchased the pdf you get the cost as a discount on your FG purchase

[Moon Wizard]

Also, the pricing is ultimately set by the publishers; so that is something you can reach out to the publishers about.

For Paizo, as @hawkwind mentioned, they already offer a discount equivalent to PDF purchase for the FG version (if you bought from Paizo first); or you get the PDF for free (if you buy from FG first).

Regards,
JPG

[SkelebuddyPizzaParty]

Haven't we literally had this discussion before, almost verbatim?

The long story short is because places like roll20 and FG license Paizo's stuff, of which Paizo sets the prices and sets the discounts if any.

[Trenloe]

After using FG for close to a decade we're considering switching VTTs to try PF2.
As mentioned above - Paizo set the price. So if you're going to switch VTTs you'll find the cost of official Paizo conversions to be similar. The exception is the Beginner Box on Foundry is $10 less, and the Foundry conversion of the first part of the Blood Lords AP is $3 more than the FG version - then everything else on Foundry is full price, also their current official content is pretty limited compared to the official content on Fantasy Grounds.

[esmdev]

If you have close to a decade of experience with FG, I think you will be astounding by how much the other more modern VTTs don't do. For instance, out of the box the DM has to apply all damage to tokens (Foundry) as opposed to FG where this happens automatically. Many things are manual unless you use macros which you may or may not have to write yourself.

Not that FG is perfect, there are a few things that I would want (like support for the Gamemastery Guide variant rules) but FG runs smoother and faster, especially for people who are used to it.

[BlueDrake]

Thank you for the replies. I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.

I know a pdf of the product is included with the purchase price (or discounted from it), but I'd be reading the pdf on the same PC I have FG installed on so that's not a huge incentive. I'll post a suggestion over in the Paizo forums; it seems like that would be the more appropriate place if pricing is set by the publisher.

I think PF2 is a really cool system. It might attract more people if the pricing was adjusted to be more in line with what WotC has done here.

[ddavison]

We were the first VTT to be licensed by Paizo and at that time, digital products were still pretty new for them. Our contract does not currently give us any flexibility in the matter of pricing, but Paizo is aware of this and is working to revise the contract into a more modern version that will allow some greater flexibility.

[esmdev]

We were the first VTT to be licensed by Paizo and at that time, digital products were still pretty new for them. Our contract does not currently give us any flexibility in the matter of pricing, but Paizo is aware of this and is working to revise the contract into a more modern version that will allow some greater flexibility.

Great news, thanks for the 411. :)

[Trenloe]

As mentioned above - Paizo set the price. So if you're going to switch VTTs you'll find the cost of official Paizo conversions the same. The exception is the Beginner Box on Foundry is $10 less, and the Foundry conversion of the first part of the Blood Lords AP is $3 more than the FG version - then everything else on Foundry is full price, also their current official content is pretty limited compared to the official content on Fantasy Grounds.
Wow - part 2 of the Blood Lords AP has been released on Foundry for $34.99 - $16 for the Foundry only code! Whereas, when released (very soon) this will be the FG/Paizo standard of $26.99 ($8 for the FG code when the PDF cost is taken into account). So, those thinking of switching VTTs, I'd have second thoughts if I were you - and this is purely based on price, I've seen some comments recently mentioning that the FG PF2 specific implementation is superior to Foundry as well... So many reasons to play PF2 on Fantasy Grounds!

[celestian]

If you have close to a decade of experience with FG, I think you will be astounding by how much the other more modern VTTs don't do. For instance, out of the box the DM has to apply all damage to tokens (Foundry) as opposed to FG where this happens automatically. Many things are manual unless you use macros which you may or may not have to write yourself.


That's an intentional process, at least for 5e. The developer for the 5e ruleset is very adamant about avoiding "video game" feel. While I don't agree with his sentiment it's a intended choice. Some of the other systems are different. Like FG, Foundry's rulesets differ and there are also mods/extensions to change some of these.

FG is king when it comes to content and automation is the norm ... but your mileage may vary depending on ruleset.

[esmdev]

That's an intentional process, at least for 5e. The developer for the 5e ruleset is very adamant about avoiding "video game" feel. While I don't agree with his sentiment it's a intended choice. Some of the other systems are different. Like FG, Foundry's rulesets differ and there are also mods/extensions to change some of these.

FG is king when it comes to content and automation is the norm ... but your mileage may vary depending on ruleset.

I was speaking specifically of PF2 on Foundry which is the only experience I have, though I admit that I made the assumption that is just how things are across the board. Good to know it might be different in others.

[celestian]

I was speaking specifically of PF2 on Foundry which is the only experience I have, though I admit that I made the assumption that is just how things are across the board. Good to know it might be different in others.

Apologies, yeah I assumed you meant 5e but makes sense as this is in pf2e ;) I think the people that want that automation use mods but I couldn't tell you for sure. All I know is the pf2e ruleset there is incredibly developed (they have a large contingent of devs) and do some pretty fancy code work.

Sometimes I wish I liked PF* so I could just play it (in either system). The content for PF has some of the best art anywhere.

[Trenloe]

To further clarify the original post from @esmdev - they were referring to the PF2 system in Foundry not automatically applying any damage *at all* - the GM has to manually calculate and apply the final damage number. The FG PF2 ruleset still has the standard FG two step process (roll to attack, roll to damage) just like the FG 5e ruleset - but with the FG automation/effects, weaknesses, immunities and resistances are calculated into the end damage which is applied to the target/s wounds.

[Valyar]

A lot has changed in foundry PF2 system. With targeting involved, application of damage is now easy thing. Effects also apply different penalties and bonuses, tons of spells and items are automated. Resistance I don’t recall if are taken into account, but it is not hard to adjust. In Short, a lot of distance in terms of functionality is shortened.

One thing that PF2 is superb in are the visuals. Vibrant colors, crisp textures, high-res images and icons. Looks modern and the pc sheet is very well arranged and functional. Another superb thing is how modifiers are reported for everything in the chat. So many tooltips and helpers for various properties and qualities. Amazing way to roll actions and request those from players.

Foundry is clearly short on content, but whatever is there, it has better presentation and quality of images and maps.

Still, PF2 system suffers from the problems in the Foundry system and the need to have tons of mods to create immersive world for players to hook into. Every major upgrade wreaks havoc. I prefer FG and the way SM support each release and the stability (and content) it gives.

I hope something is done with the cost of modules, things get crazy. But I am very happy that SM made different bundles to lessen the blow. FG is the way to go if content and cost is involved.

[ddavison]

Someone just posted about a Humble Bundle for Pathfinder 2 that is running right now. Once you add it your account at Paizo.com, each item from the Humble Bundle will grant the full discount of the PDF price here at FG. Even though the HB is 100% Paizo, it saves you a bunch of money here.

[Milke]

I basically can't throw my money at FG fast enough. The fact that the new rulebooks and APs come out here basically right after they do from Paizo... plus all the accessories available. Battle maps. One-shot adventures.
I know people have budgets. But the work put into this stuff is mindblowing. And worth every penny, imo.

[Birger Tucholski]

I basically can't throw my money at FG fast enough. The fact that the new rulebooks and APs come out here basically right after they do from Paizo... plus all the accessories available. Battle maps. One-shot adventures.
I know people have budgets. But the work put into this stuff is mindblowing. And worth every penny, imo.

I 100 % agree with this . The work here is Fantastic.

[SweegyLeo]

The biggest complaint about 4e was that it felt too much like a video game?
If so, I can see why they are paranoid the.

[esmdev]

The biggest complaint about 4e was that it felt too much like a video game?
If so, I can see why they are paranoid the.

When 4E first came out my group tried it but we felt like we needed a cargo ship of miniatures to really visualize what was happening with all the maneuvers (we we're very much a theater of the mind group) so we just continued to play other games instead.

I recently brought up the idea of experimenting with 4E using FGU since we would have battle maps and unlimited tokens. Turns out one of the other complaints my group had was that it was like playing a slow and clunky MMO when they could just log into DDO.

I remember thinking when it first came out it would make a great MMO but didn't see it so negatively as they did.

[SweegyLeo]

Indeed.
My favorite thing about 4e, is how balanced it was. Comparing classes against each other, coming out of 3.5

Every class had cool options, and there was just, more variety and option.

I understand that many people feel that 4e didn't really get the Skill challenge concept very well...
Particularly not like PF. So.. Oops.