Smite Works Blind Update Breaking a lot of EXTs

[MrDDT]

@Smiteworks

This is pretty crappy of you to knowingly putting out an update without telling anyone breaking a ton of EXTs. This is complete bull. You knew this would break them.
FGU is built on the fact that it supports EXT creation. No heads up at all on this change makes me just want to look for another VTT.

That is all, voicing my displeasure.

[Jiminimonka]

I have seen plenty of messages about upcoming changes for the past month on the forums and discord.

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

Yes, there were many messages saying about the changes and if there are changes and to bring us improvements and possibilities it is to bring us results, I dare to go further on the other platform until they stabilized there were many broken "extensions" and people abandoned them for others to take over, there were many rulesets created by the simple fact of saying here it is and there it is not, so encourage the small team that strives to bring results, partnerships with new systems, be part of the community that wants to grow and see it grow and not part of the community that just want to charge and receive....

[SilentRuin]

There was an unannounced one on 7/19 that broke one of mine - but you are correct - the vast number of breakages were given plenty of time to compensate for them the release the week before as I had made my own fixes (they broke all my extensions) 3 weeks before in TEST. A lot of devs did not do this and that was not FGU's fault.

However, I too complained about dropping in unannounced argument changes on 7/19 that Moon explained was due to his not knowing some extensions (one of mine) were overriding that level of the code. In my case it was messageDamage which is the only place I can grab Damage Exceed data or total damage data for the extension.

So - no fault of FGU for the major breaking changes the previous week which was in TEST for plenty of time to determine how to handle them for the go live date. And... well... I've said what I wanted to say on the 7/19 argument changes already.

EXTENSIONS = RISK - live it - accept it - or don't use them.

[MrDDT]

I have seen plenty of messages about upcoming changes for the past month on the forums and discord.


Yes, there were many messages saying about the changes and if there are changes and to bring us improvements and possibilities it is to bring us results, I dare to go further on the other platform until they stabilized there were many broken "extensions" and people abandoned them for others to take over, there were many rulesets created by the simple fact of saying here it is and there it is not, so encourage the small team that strives to bring results, partnerships with new systems, be part of the community that wants to grow and see it grow and not part of the community that just want to charge and receive....

Talking about the latest update that broke a ton of exts, you are talking about the update before this one which was on test server.

[celestian]

I am not suggesting that Smiteworks couldn't do more to help make devs lives easier but you also can't put all of the blame on them for breaking extensions. There are so many interactions between what is and what changes and depending on how the dev wrote their code it could break... or it could keep working.

However, they could go a long way to alleviating these issues or help them get resolved quicker if they documented changes better. When CoreRPG (and 5E) ruleset functions are changed, explain the functions updated and what needs to be done to change the previous use case to the new. Also explain WHY this was done. Same goes for API changes.

They've gotten better since I started working with FG but I'd be happy to see more.

[jharp]

It would be nice if there was a button for update forge only - or even better yet a update list that allowed you to select which updates to perform.

Jason

[BushViper]

Best case scenario would be for Smiteworks to add quite a few of these extensions to the base code. It's truly mind-boggling that some of the extensions that exist, had to be created at all.

Some of the most useful, quality-of-life-improving extensions have been around for more than a year. Why aren't we seeing those picked up and added to the client? So many of the extensions offer features/improvements that objectively improve the platform by huge margins. However, the constant maintenance for the coders is a massive burden and no-one is getting rich from writing extensions. In fact, some of the most useful extensions are free.

It makes more than sense for SW to pick up these features and include them in the base code so that the creators aren't constantly playing catchup after each patch.

[Jiminimonka]

Best case scenario would be for Smiteworks to add quite a few of these extensions to the base code. It's truly mind-boggling that some of the extensions that exist, had to be created at all.

Some of the most useful, quality-of-life-improving extensions have been around for more than a year. Why aren't we seeing those picked up and added to the client? So many of the extensions offer features/improvements that objectively improve the platform by huge margin. However, the constant maintenance for the coders is a massive burden and no-one is getting rich from writing extensions. In fact, some of the most useful extensions are free.

It makes more than sense for SW to pick up these features and include them in the base code so that the creators aren't constantly playing catchup after each patch.


The ability to write extensions is not a accident that some random coder hacked, it is by design, to allow users to add things they want. Eventually Unity will allow even more extensibility.

Lots of extensions over the years got added to the Core too.

MintyFresh wrote this in his blog:

"Software products do not have to be extensible to be successful - nearly every smart phone app is not extensible, and they’re wildly successful. Fantasy Grounds is an exception to the closed system mentality, it’s amazingly extensible - put some code in auxiliary files and FG‘s functionality can be vastly changed without touching the underlying program. So why would Smiteworks do this? I believe it is vision. It is my understanding that Smiteworks is a small company. Extensibility allows rule sets and modules to be developed with less staff and with less capital. Each rule set is really just an extension of the CoreRPG. Exposing the extensibility to the public is even more remarkable. Anyone can enhance the Smiteworks’ product and increase it’s appeal to more and more players. We’re each and every one of us richer for it."

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/entry.php?129-A-Neophyte-Tackles-the-FG-Extension-What-is-Extensibility-Why-is-it-Important

[MrDDT]

The ability to write extensions is not a accident that some random coder hacked, it is by design, to allow users to add things they want. Eventually Unity will allow even more extensibility.

Lots of extensions over the years got added to the Core too.


1) It's the only reason I currently use FGU. Without this there are much better platforms to use and are lower overhead and costs.

2)Lots of exts over the years is very relative, I would say very few are added to FGU. There are 1000+ exts out there and most have been around for over a year. Less than 1% have been added. Is less than 1% "A lot" to you? It isnt to me. When you consider some of them are very very very easy to add into the code.

[Jiminimonka]

1) It's the only reason I currently use FGU. Without this there are much better platforms to use and are lower overhead and costs.

2)Lots of exts over the years is very relative, I would say very few are added to FGU. There are 1000+ exts out there and most have been around for over a year. Less than 1% have been added. Is less than 1% "A lot" to you? It isnt to me. When you consider some of them are very very very easy to add into the code.

Fantasy Grounds has been around for 2 decades. Where did you pull this 1% from?

Other platforms.... a topic for little debate, they don't come close to FG (unless pretty graphics are what make an RPG).

A valid option here (edit), is for Smiteworks to be more transparent with their updates so that extension developers get more notification of upcoming changes. Smiteworks have a small team, and don't have time to parse "1000+ exts out there" and add them to the Core... it also means if they do add them to the Core, they have more work to do with upgrades for things that not everyone needs or wants. LOTS of people use FG without any extensions at all.

[MrDDT]

Fantasy Grounds has been around for 2 decades. Where did you pull this 1% from?

Other platforms.... a topic for little debate, they don't come close to FG (unless pretty graphics are what make an RPG).

A valid option here (edit), is for Smiteworks to be more transparent with their updates so that extension developers get more notification of upcoming changes. Smiteworks have a small team, and don't have time to parse "1000+ exts out there" and add them to the Core... it also means if they do add them to the Core, they have more work to do with upgrades for things that not everyone needs or wants. LOTS of people use FG without any extensions at all.

Your opinion and my opinion for the word "lots" here is very different let's leave it at that :)

Back on topic, my point is that if you going to support as a major factor of your system extensions you don't want to blind side the ext makers by doing blind updates when you know this update will break exts. I think its a very valid point.

[BushViper]

Fantasy Grounds has been around for 2 decades. Where did you pull this 1% from?

Other platforms.... a topic for little debate, they don't come close to FG (unless pretty graphics are what make an RPG).

A valid option here (edit), is for Smiteworks to be more transparent with their updates so that extension developers get more notification of upcoming changes. Smiteworks have a small team, and don't have time to parse "1000+ exts out there" and add them to the Core... it also means if they do add them to the Core, they have more work to do with upgrades for things that not everyone needs or wants. LOTS of people use FG without any extensions at all.

SW should ship you a pair of kneepads.

I'm not going to bother wasting time dissecting the bulk of your replies to DDT and myself. However, I will say that there are quite a number of extensions that are not subjective in their improvement of the client; they objectively improve the experience for every user.

Also, out of simple curiosity, can you name 10 extensions that have been added to the base client?

[superteddy57]

Extension developers haven't been blind sided by many updates as of late. Moon and I make myself available in the main discord, here on the forums, and have also made myself available to many other discords for third party developers. We pass along and make myself available to anyone developing to field questions related to any upcoming updates. This was an initiative we put in place some time ago and have seen many of the developers update their extensions with ready knowledge. As with any enhancement there may be some that slip through the cracks, but we are here to help them get back on their feet.

[BushViper]

Extension developers haven't been blind sided by many updates as of late. Moon and I make myself available in the main discord, here on the forums, and have also made myself available to many other discords for third party developers. We pass along and make myself available to anyone developing to field questions related to any upcoming updates. This was an initiative we put in place some time ago and have seen many of the developers update their extensions with ready knowledge. As with any enhancement there may be some that slip through the cracks, but we are here to help them get back on their feet.

Despite the fact that I am often critical, I do give credit where it's due and I know that Moon does work closely with creators. I don't have any first-hand knowledge of your involvement, but thank you anyway.

[MrDDT]

Extension developers haven't been blind sided by many updates as of late. Moon and I make myself available in the main discord, here on the forums, and have also made myself available to many other discords for third party developers. We pass along and make myself available to anyone developing to field questions related to any upcoming updates. This was an initiative we put in place some time ago and have seen many of the developers update their extensions with ready knowledge. As with any enhancement there may be some that slip through the cracks, but we are here to help them get back on their feet.

Thanks, SuperTeddy, and I agree with you guys put yourself out there and are in contact with a lot of ext makers to make sure things go smoothly. More so even as of late.

[superteddy57]

Well our goal is not to see games come down. We want you folks to have fun and play on while we present new and exciting features. If a developer feels left out, please reach out to me directly on discord and we can see if we can get you sorted. Just wanted to chime in to say that we code with extension developers in mind and develop plans on how to reach out and educate to keep them working.

As for integration, we do integrate extensions. Our process is not to take the code and jam it into the code base. We look at the extension on how it operates and attempt to code it without looking at the developers code. We need to ensure that it fits the current code base, ensure it's backward compatible for every virtual table, and can be provided on a mass scale across many other rulesets. So, the list of extensions on the forge are growing, but we do take our time to ensure we don't cause further grief as more integration can cause further changes to the code landscape and becomes a full circle of unhappy extension developers and users.

[esmdev]

I would like to add that I asked for some of the 3.5/PF1 extensions to be incorporated into the main ruleset and a number of people felt that would be a bad decision because many prefer the flexibility not having the game locked down with automation but more of a salad bar of extensions approach. After some time on the fringes (not PF2/5E) I can totally see how things are better for versatility, house rules, etc.

[damned]

Across all rulesets there are only 315 extensions on the Forge. Maybe there are that many extensions again in other locations. Many extensions overlap each other and do similar things. SW know what extensions are actually used and for how many games. I know what extensions I use (Ive either written them plus up to 3 extensions I use in some games) and its not many. Just like most users never ever post on the forums, most dont use extensions.

[esmdev]

Across all rulesets there are only 315 extensions on the Forge. Maybe there are that many extensions again in other locations. Many extensions overlap each other and do similar things. SW know what extensions are actually used and for how many games. I know what extensions I use (Ive either written them plus up to 3 extensions I use in some games) and its not many. Just like most users never ever post on the forums, most dont use extensions.

I've found of late that I rarely use extensions outside of themes. On occasions I've found a need to change some skills around or something, change a character sheet label or whatnot. Most of the time I'd rather minimize the extra stuff and just run the game like an old school game master.

My roommate was telling me that he didn't really know how to play a game we've been using for over a year. He said he had some concepts but kind of didn't know some of the others because FG does it for him so he never bothered to look it up. For instance I had installed a sneak attack extension to 5E which was great but I didn't really notice that the rogue was reliant on the extension because they didn't really get flanking. They were less engaged because of the automation and less likely to look up or ask for an explanation of the rule. I've found that when I minimize the automation they have a better idea of the rules and are more likely to consider positioning and other things they would just whatever before.

So I am very much in the extensions shouldn't be immediately shifted into rulesets category. There are some, like Player Agency that would be nice to have integrated.

[MrDDT]

Across all rulesets there are only 315 extensions on the Forge. Maybe there are that many extensions again in other locations. Many extensions overlap each other and do similar things. SW know what extensions are actually used and for how many games. I know what extensions I use (Ive either written them plus up to 3 extensions I use in some games) and its not many. Just like most users never ever post on the forums, most dont use extensions.

No offense, but this is a straight up lie. (bolded text by me)

Im possible to know games that are not posted in the cloud. As my other computer isn't even online.
The forge has been around for what? 17 months? How long has extensions be around? I fail to see what the 315 exts on the forge matter when that's really only a small amount of the ones out there.

Next is, I think you making the point most do NOT post and most do NOT use exts. Most likely play vanilla and likely a huge downfall of FGU. If more stuff was included with the game itself more likely would see the power of the system instead of going to other locations.

Sorry to derail my topic again, but I had to point out the falsehood that was just posted by a mod.

[damned]

No offense, but this is a straight up lie. (bolded text by me)

Im possible to know games that are not posted in the cloud. As my other computer isn't even online.
The forge has been around for what? 17 months? How long has extensions be around? I fail to see what the 315 exts on the forge matter when that's really only a small amount of the ones out there.

Next is, I think you making the point most do NOT post and most do NOT use exts. Most likely play vanilla and likely a huge downfall of FGU. If more stuff was included with the game itself more likely would see the power of the system instead of going to other locations.

Sorry to derail my topic again, but I had to point out the falsehood that was just posted by a mod.

What are you saying here? Are you saying that because SW cant know what is on your offline computer, because some games are played direct and not via the cloud?

By extrapolation - what magic allows you your insight? Do you know something I dont? Do you know something SW doesnt?

How many extensions are out there? Please do tell me. I cant find these 1,000+ extensions. Perhaps you could point me to the other 700 wonderful extensions that I am missing out on?

What has me being a mod got to do with anything? My comments are my comments. Im not speaking for SW any more than you are. If Im speaking as a moderator it will be obvious.

[BushViper]

@damned

I don't have a clue what percentage of players use extensions, but I am willing to accept that it is isn't the majority for several reasons:

1. A lot of extensions cost money and some of the truly great ones are $10-15. Cost is definitely an issue for some folks and there are people that are strongly opposed to buying 'features' for a client that already has a fairly high barrier of entry in regard to cost (primarily for DMs).
2. Getting extensions installed and keeping them updated is too complicated or too much of a chore for some people.
3. Some people simply aren't aware they exist or don't quite understand the benefits they can provide.

Regardless, I don't find the argument that "most people don't use extensions and those that do don't use many" compelling, at all. Furthermore, I find it to be a bit of a slap in the face when the community creates an extension that fixes a problem or provides an objectively better user experience, your response is essentially "hardly anyone would use that so it's not particularly important." .....lol what?

Every time SW makes a change that objectively improves the client, it's appreciated. Particularly when an improvement doesn't cost the user anything, the user doesn't have to maintain it individually, or have to go seek out the improvement on their own.

It's simply good business to continually find ways to improve your product so I find it curious that there a number of extensions right now that perform the tasks of a bunch of items on the feature Wishlist. I understand integration, compatibility, and the rest of it, but when there's already a solid foundation why does it take so long to implement features that already exist in some capacity?

I dunno, maybe pretty dice was a real m'fer.

[BushViper]

I don't think SW should be scooping up extensions en masse because there are quite a few of them that are subjective or homebrew-like additions. What I'm referring to are the extensions that address fundamental issues with the platform or individual rulesets that have been inarguably improved.

A prime example of what I'm referring to is Saagael's Natural Selection extension which basically fixes the problem of being unable to interact with stacked tokens. Is there a better way to do it? Maybe? Probably? Who knows, but what Saagael has done is 1000% better than the previous option.

[damned]

Why is it a slap in the face?
Who am I slapping?
I have spent a couple of years of time building things for this platform. Most of what I make is for other people and its for free. Use them. Dont use them. Im not slapping anyone or getting slapped.

This whole argument is pretty circular. SmiteWorks made updates and it broke something. Why arent SmiteWorks updating stuff?

Either they are updating and improving stuff or they are not.

If someone makes something that improves the experience for one/some/all/none thats great. Im all for it.

When you put something in quotes you are suggesting that I have said it. I did not say what you quoted. I didnt say anything remotely close to it.

SmiteWorks are continually improving the platform and the products that sit on top of the platform. Because they are not working on something you think they should be working on is pretty much irrelevant to anyone else except you. If SW see 10 people want something or they see 1000 people want something they are going to be motivated differently by each.

SmiteWorks cant just go and scoop up other peoples code. Other peoples code is other peoples code. Even if the owner gave them permission to use it they probably wouldnt. SW write code in a very specific way. There are plenty of very smart people about who write sharp code. There are people here who might be better coders than the SW team. But code that SW incorporates needs to (from their perspective) be written their way.

I can think of three extensions I have written whose features were incorporated into official rulesets shortly after. But they sure as heck didnt use the code that I wrote. They wrote it the SW way and in line with their vision of their products.

Your discussion of an extension that is not even 4 days old is just as good an argument for the current environment as it is for your argument. With all the community devs out there, over all the years, no one else has come up with a solution for this either. Maybe it is possible now because of some new feature that was added or because Saagel has some specific skill or experience or perspective that allowed him to make this extension. It wasnt just SW that didnt build this feature previously - no one else had. It took a combination of skills, experience, time, need, access etc. It also wasnt created in a vacuum. Devs talk to each other and help each other - both community and SW devs.

And finally, as for slaps in the face. Your comment earlier in this thread to another community member was rude, crude and not at all in keeping with the general tone of this forum.

[esmdev]

No offense, but this is a straight up lie. (bolded text by me)

Im possible to know games that are not posted in the cloud. As my other computer isn't even online.
The forge has been around for what? 17 months? How long has extensions be around? I fail to see what the 315 exts on the forge matter when that's really only a small amount of the ones out there.

Next is, I think you making the point most do NOT post and most do NOT use exts. Most likely play vanilla and likely a huge downfall of FGU. If more stuff was included with the game itself more likely would see the power of the system instead of going to other locations.

Sorry to derail my topic again, but I had to point out the falsehood that was just posted by a mod.

To be honest, long before the cloud Smiteworks knew who was playing and what ruleset they were using. Pre-cloud they used to post stats of how many games were played in a quarter using what ruleset. They were also able to say that it was a game and not someone booting up to do development or game prep. It is entirely possible that they also know what extensions are in use as both ruleset and extensions are established in the launcher. To say that it is a lie without proof it is a lie is kind of rude. I don't know but I do doubt that you play offline as you say, do you really go through the effort of unplugging your LAN from the net when you play? Do you sneaker net your updates? The only computer that matters is the computer you are running when you're running extensions and games.

[esmdev]

@BushViper

I think it is a matter of resources. Collectively the community can develop more and faster than Smiteworks. There are consistent updates to both FGU and CoreRPG as is noted by the OP. In addition they only recently started developing ruleset internally again with Fallout and the other 2D20 games. The FGU transition really ate their production cycles but I see them moving forward faster lately and I would guess that is because FGC --> FGU is behind them.

I think that a lot of people have programming experience or the will to learn it and just make what they want. If there is an extension out there that does what people want on the wishlist it makes sense to aim at what isn't already covered because people have what they want.

I have complaints, like the PF2E Gamemastery guide seems to be in development limbo, but Trenloe has a life and will hopefully get to it someday, but I've run tons of games on FGU and my players are happy with what we have.

Note if you think extensions blow up here you should have seen the Foundry update to v10... system and module writers were scrambling for days, weeks, months, still, and that was with practically a year of warning. Roll20 requires you to be a Pro subscriber to access the development API. Astral Tabletop... sadness... Anyways, nothing is perfect but thus far I'm happy with FGU.

[BushViper]

@damned

There's no point in the two of us engaging any further here, but I will say that I have absolutely no idea what "comment" I'm supposed to have made that was so inappropriate. Also, if that was the case, why haven't I been sanctioned?


@BushViper

I think it is a matter of resources. Collectively the community can develop more and faster than Smiteworks. There are consistent updates to both FGU and CoreRPG as is noted by the OP. In addition they only recently started developing ruleset internally again with Fallout and the other 2D20 games. The FGU transition really ate their production cycles but I see them moving forward faster lately and I would guess that is because FGC --> FGU is behind them.

I think that a lot of people have programming experience or the will to learn it and just make what they want. If there is an extension out there that does what people want on the wishlist it makes sense to aim at what isn't already covered because people have what they want.

I have complaints, like the PF2E Gamemastery guide seems to be in development limbo, but Trenloe has a life and will hopefully get to it someday, but I've run tons of games on FGU and my players are happy with what we have.

Note if you think extensions blow up here you should have seen the Foundry update to v10... system and module writers were scrambling for days, weeks, months, still, and that was with practically a year of warning. Roll20 requires you to be a Pro subscriber to access the development API. Astral Tabletop... sadness... Anyways, nothing is perfect but thus far I'm happy with FGU.

Of course it's a question of resources, but this thread has run its course and I don't care to go over the nuances of your point(s). I didn't get involved with this thread because I was upset with extensions being broken by updates. In fact, it doesn't really bother me much because I know it's an inherent part of using extensions. That, and I'm not the one that has to fix them. The primary reason I initially commented was to point out that some of the broken extensions could be avoided if SW were to pick up the best work and add them to their client.

[esmdev]

I think the biggest barrier to them picking up and adding things directly into rulesets is that it isn't really their code to use. They could ask and some might give or sell their code but depending on the license the extension author has decided to use they'd more likely have to reinvent the wheel, especially since extension authors are now able to sell extensions on the forge, why would they give up their pizza money?

Anyways, I'm also done here.

Regardless of our difference of opinions I do hope that everyone has a great last week of the year and next year too! :)

[Zacchaeus]

SW should ship you a pair of kneepads.

I'm not going to bother wasting time dissecting the bulk of your replies to DDT and myself. However, I will say that there are quite a number of extensions that are not subjective in their improvement of the client; they objectively improve the experience for every user.

Also, out of simple curiosity, can you name 10 extensions that have been added to the base client?

Here's a list of more than 10 https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22975-5E-D-amp-D-Community-Extensions&p=204116&viewfull=1#post204116

In addition to that weapon versatile handling, coin weight, inspiration slots, in line images in reference manuals, story templates, concentration handling, handling of regeneration etc. And these are just the 5e ones and I've probably forgotten a dozen more.

Also the bolded comment was very rude. Please temper that your language.