Ranged attacks in melee and gang up bonuses: Issues with range automation?

[LazerGonzo]

Ranged attacks in melee distance <=1" are not using the target's parry, and gang up bonuses aren't applying. Checked the options and these are all the pertinent ones I can think of and their values:

* House Rules > Gang Up = Standard
* House Rules > Map: Diagonal Distance = Raw
* House Rules > Range Penalties = Standard
* Automation > Auto Apply: Abilities & Modifiers = On
* Automation > Targeting Allowed = On

Distance is 1". Happens for both NPCs and player characters. Tried it with user-created NPCs and weapons, and with NPCs and weapons from the core book. Is it broken or am I doing wrong?

[Jiminimonka]

Ranged attacks in melee distance <=1" are not using the target's parry, and gang up bonuses aren't applying. Checked the options and these are all the pertinent ones I can think of and their values:

* House Rules > Gang Up = Standard
* House Rules > Map: Diagonal Distance = Raw
* House Rules > Range Penalties = Standard
* Automation > Auto Apply: Abilities & Modifiers = On
* Automation > Targeting Allowed = On

Distance is 1". Happens for both NPCs and player characters. Tried it with user-created NPCs and weapons, and with NPCs and weapons from the core book. Is it broken or am I doing wrong?

I would set Diagonal to 1", not RAW - SW Doesn't use RAW it uses Inches.

I tried this in Test and it is working as intended. Gang up also working correctly. The NPCs must be of a different faction for the Gang-Up bonus to work.

Not tried this in Live, but this was a bug that recently came up and Moon Wizard patched it (on Test so far).

[Jiminimonka]

Just tested in Live, it is also working as intended for me.

Do you have an extensions running?

[kronovan]

I have the same Options as you and adjacent PCs and NPCs 1" away are correctly rolling against the Target's Parry when using ranged weapons. Do the weapons your PCs or NPCs are attacking with have an attack type of Ranged? I've also tried it with a Arcane Background PC (in my test AB Miracles) and it correctly rolls against the Target's Parry. So I can't reproduce your results.

As to Ganging Up, I can't help you with it because to the best of my knowledge it hasn't worked for some time. I always just use the modifier box, which I personally don't mind due to there being a lot of moving pieces to Ganging up; i.e. opponents with Block edge, adjacent allies that cancel out bonuses, etc.

[Jiminimonka]

I just tested this again, definitely working as intended, even changed the grid to hex (my preferred setup for SWADE). Set Diagonal distance to 1. Not RAW or 1.5.

EDIT: Gang-Up ONLY works on factions that are different. So you can't get gang up on Allies but you do on Neutral and Hostile. If you set to No faction (it cycles thru to no icon) then no Gang-Up bonus then either. Otherwise it all seems good to me.

[LazerGonzo]

I would set Diagonal to 1", not RAW - SW Doesn't use RAW it uses Inches.

This was the one that fixed both issues! Thanks!

[kronovan]

I managed to reproduce the incorrect targeting. I enabled the Weird Wars II player module, and added a Tokarev TT-33 (7.62) pistol from the Weird Wars II Player Group to a WC's inventory. When I tested that WC firing that pistol at an adjacent NPC at 1" distance, it rolled against a TN 4 instead of Parry. The problem was that the item entry for the Tokarev had a Group setting of "Pistols "; i.e. a blank character at the end of the text. Once I removed that trailing blank character for it's Group, it started to work correctly. Now the odd thing is, if I re-enter that trailing blank character it still works. It's very possible that just making the edit to the weapon realigned its DB entry correctly.

My advice is that for any ranged weapon that isn't correctly targeting Parry in adjacent situations, to make it editable and check the Group setting, or even just make a simple edit. Then test it again to see if it now correctly targets Parry.

[LazerGonzo]

My advice is that for any ranged weapon that isn't correctly targeting Parry in adjacent situations, to make it editable and check the Group setting, or even just make a simple edit. Then test it again to see if it now correctly targets Parry.

Fixing how diagonals were calculated (from raw to 1x) actually fixed the gang up thing as well as the range targeting. I was not aware that weapon groups made a difference, so that's still helpful information (gives me another variable to check if something else goes weird).

[Lonewolf]

Gang up bones do work but people don't like the required setup. The system being used is based on old assumptions that made before we had a proper function for measuring distance between tokens.

Moon Wizard patched it (on Test so far).
There has been no fix because Moon Wizard tested it and there was no issue found. The recent fix was for another bug in spell casting range.
Here is the problem. There are two choices:
1. FG SWADE (and child rules sets). Is played on a square grid and expects the distance between tokens to be integers. It rounds off if people can't put the tokens on the grid correctly. You need to be pedantic about token placement and gang up runs with no floating point.
2. RAW SWADE does not use a grid and expects everyone to just move tokens along a ruler placed on the tabletop. Therefore, nobody is a slave to the grid. If you not being pedantic about token placement, then you are awesome. Gang up calculation may occasionally choke on a floating point but so what.

To make it even more complicated weapon reach does not exist on FG :p

So, with that in mind who is adjacent in the picture?
What is the correct gang up bonus?
51972

If people do not all agree on an answer, "there's the rub". How do we code that ?

[macDsinfo]

If people do not all agree on an answer, "there's the rub". How do we code that ?

maybe we shouldn't

[Jiminimonka]

I agree that distance should be used and not grid.

[Moon Wizard]

Just pushed a new update to the Test/beta channel to change the Gang Up calc to use <= 1.5 (instead of <= 1); which should give expected behavior even if house rule diagonal distance set to 1.5 or Raw and still using a grid.

Regards,
JPG

[Lonewolf]

Just pushed a new update to the Test/beta channel to change the Gang Up calc to use <= 1.5 (instead of <= 1); which should give expected behavior even if house rule diagonal distance set to 1.5 or Raw and still using a grid.

Regards,
JPG

That is much better I think now. It makes it easier for people that are trying to avoid the grid limitations.

With SWADE based rulesets. Expect people to still ask for Gang Up calc with a hex grid and no snap. They hate any type of grids.
Another odd ball thing is people might still complain that a Reach 1 weapon (which is actually Reach 2 on FG) does not get factored in. Since reach code is only for a graphics overlay.

Gang Up is simple rule to work out but putting it in FG can be troublesome. Changing calc to <= 1.5 (instead of <= 1) might help out a lot.

[Moon Wizard]

I'll leave the complicated issues to deal with Reach weapons to @Ikael. I was going for focusing on the general issue related to the new option.

Regards,
JPG

[Mike Serfass]

Thank you!

I, and those in my group, don't care for the grid limitations, and dislike hexes, mostly because the positioning and movement is weird (if you move within hexes, and if you don't, why have them). An inch is an inch, and shouldn't matter what pattern is drawn over a map, and shouldn't be different because you're not moving or measuring in a cardinal direction. If we're going to use geometric patterns, why don't we use octagons? Don't they make more sense for minis on maps? They cover straight and diagonals equally well. I want an octagon option!

Though there is something to be said for gamification and making it clear where everyone is standing and what their personal space is. Sometimes it's nice to make it clear at a glance. We've effectively been moving and standing in 6 ft squares for the last couple of years. Maybe putting grids on streets and floors would have helped.

[Lonewolf]

In test mode 14 March 16:24 UTC
I realized yet another edge case where things can go wrong. Everyone hates grids in SWADE.... unless there are in a dogfight chase. So I when back to run the tests on that part again.
This time the approach to measurement is the opposite attitude to grids. Here the grid is mandatory and a there is no diagonal measurements allowed. So we use a special chase mode function to set the grid up. This triggered by placing cards onto a normal grid and there is a UI button on the map. Right click to switch on card
boundary overlay. To keep it simple we leave squares to 1. Therfore a card distance should now work out as 3.

First test got 51994

Now I have not touched the new map diagonal distance option. Diagonal measurements don't exist in chase mode. Answer expected was 6" I think. Anyone else?

[Moon Wizard]

I'll have to leave that one for @Ikael. I'm not familiar enough with how chases should work.

Regards,
JPG

[Lonewolf]

Back in live branch. Here is an expected correct answer. If we want a card range of 15. Squares must be 5. The measurement will be 15 per card in any direction.
51995
I am rushing out the door for some real life adventuring. When available again I will have another look at the same set up on test branch.

I am really hope that I am barking up the wrong tree here and get the same result.

[Moon Wizard]

I'd have to see the campaign data to see what might be happening in that first image.

The distance between each card is the base "chase" units (i.e. 3 in your picture); and that is multiplied by the grid distance in the image data panel settings. Then, the closest chase card is determined for each token in order to do the calculation.

Here is my image of what I tried attached to this post. I tried playing with the campaign setting and raw distance toggle in the image panel; but neither affected the calculation for me.

Regards,
JPG

[Lonewolf]

I'd have to see the campaign data to see what might be happening in that first image.

The distance between each card is the base "chase" units (i.e. 3 in your picture); and that is multiplied by the grid distance in the image data panel settings. Then, the closest chase card is determined for each token in order to do the calculation.

Here is my image of what I tried attached to this post. I tried playing with the campaign setting and raw distance toggle in the image panel; but neither affected the calculation for me.

Regards,
JPG

Your test is not right but it's ok. Neither was mine :) Having run through a whole lot more tests things are looking very good. Well done.

For a good test. When placing cards they must be either adjacent for a chase. Or seperated by exactly two spaces in a dog fight. There is a button at the top of the map that needs lit too.
Right click and turn on card highlight.

Now the diagonal measurement should be replaced with correct values and any tools used for it deactivated. In a chase when the cards are adjacent there is only (square = Card Distance). Diagonal measurement never happens as the chase is a one dimensional.
With a Dog fight. The chase is a two dimensional but vehicles still move and count Range orthogonally (no diagonals). The cards are therfore (square * 3 = Card Distance). Each 9 sqares covered by a card are one unit of measurement for the ruleset.

I know people will come back and say it is not a perfect solution but it works. Common user error is to try and duplicate the exact values from a rule book. For example if they want a copy the value of 25 in the book. They try and set square distance to 8.33 instead of using an interger like 8. It is good practice to set the card values slightly less that normal anyway. Since rest of the calculations favor it when working out range bands. If they display raw distance with a non interger they should expect some odd values to come out.

Right now I think chase mode will carry on ignoring any options for diagonal measurement. Therfore so far it is working ;)

[Jiminimonka]

Playing today, Short Range and Melee was being treated as Long Range (-4).

Something is definitely borked with range, and I think the Blood Splat Tokens and Portals not working is related... but I am probably wrong (about the Blood Splats)....

[Jiminimonka]

Playing today, Short Range and Melee was being treated as Long Range (-4).

Something is definitely borked with range, and I think the Blood Splat Tokens and Portals not working is related... but I am probably wrong (about the Blood Splats)....

52089
52090

Range 2" is short range....

[Jiminimonka]

52089
52090

Range 2" is short range....

Seems ranges are working backwards

52091

52092

that is NOT short range....

[Moon Wizard]

I'm seeing something unusual with the latest version of SWADE (two result reports, which the second is wrong); but it appears to be doing the range calc correctly in the first report.

See my pics with an example Colt Peacemaker that I modified to range 3/6/9.

If you're seeing something different, I might need an example campaign or more specific steps.

Regards,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

I figured out my double issue; the guy had two targets on different maps.

Here is the same data with a single target on the same map.

Also, make sure that you don't have any unpacked rulesets in the FG data folder, just in case that might be the case.

Regards,
JPG

[Jiminimonka]

I figured out my double issue; the guy had two targets on different maps.

Here is the same data with a single target on the same map.

Also, make sure that you don't have any unpacked rulesets in the FG data folder, just in case that might be the case.

Regards,
JPG

I test in my own campaign and this issue is gone. I suspect Doswell has an unpacked ruleset in his FG data folder.. (it was his campaign this was happening in).

[Doswelk]

Also, make sure that you don't have any unpacked rulesets in the FG data folder, just in case that might be the case.


All "my" rulesets are unpacked so I can tweak them easily why/how does this break stuff?

[Moon Wizard]

This is because the rulesets are also being updated (such as today); so unless you are soft-linking the folders to SVN, you are getting the old version of the ruleset matched to whenever you last unzipped.

Regards,
JPG

[Jiminimonka]

I am finding this has happened too many times for it to be a coincidence.

The Map: Diagonal Distance keeps reverting to 1.5 on client restart.

52461

[Moon Wizard]

Thanks for reporting. I was able to recreate. It appears to happen with any ruleset where the default value is not 1x, and the house rule option selected is set to 1x; then it doesn't remember. This is the case for Savage Worlds and Pathfinder. I have some ideas; and will get it in the next ruleset cycle.

Regards,
JPG

[Jiminimonka]

Thanks for reporting. I was able to recreate. It appears to happen with any ruleset where the default value is not 1x, and the house rule option selected is set to 1x; then it doesn't remember. This is the case for Savage Worlds and Pathfinder. I have some ideas; and will get it in the next ruleset cycle.

Regards,
JPG

This 1.5 map distance is still resetting between sessions in Savage Worlds.

[Moon Wizard]

Yeah, it should be fixed in next big ruleset update; but it got slightly delayed due to v4.2.0 launch. It should be going into Test channel soon.

JPG

[Jiminimonka]

Yeah, it should be fixed in next big ruleset update; but it got slightly delayed due to v4.2.0 launch. It should be going into Test channel soon.

JPG

Ah, OK. Cheers