BUG REPORT: Walls NOT blocking line of sight or movement, for player's view

[Lo Zeno]

I'm running the Dungeon of the Mad Mage module.
Player characters can see BEYOND any wall, for the distance of their vision (e.g. if they have darkvision), and they can even move through walls; when they move through walls, though, on the player's view they are moved across the map as if the wall doesn't exist, while on the DM's view their characters are blocked in front of the wall.

The "player vision preview" button on the DM's view, though, shows everything as it should be (walls blocking the line of sight and stopping characters).

What my players see:

51242

What I see, with "player vision preview" selected:

51243

Note how one of the characters in the player's view managed to move across a wall and is in the "nothingness" between rooms, while in my (DM) view she is pressed against the wall as if she was blocked by it (which is what should happen)

What the walls layer looks like:

51244

And attached are the logs, too.


Now, I understand that bugs happen, but this particular kind of bug has happened a few times already in the past. It has always been fixed with a hotfix. Please get in the habit of doing regression tests before a release, because I had to cancel today's session since using a hand-drawn mask on the first level of Dungeon of the Mad Mage is, honestly, a daunting task.

[Lo Zeno]

Extra details:

I made a test running FGU locally in two instances, and I moved one of the characters with darkvision to see what happened: not only the character can see beyond the walls into corridors that they haven't even explored, thanks to his darkvision but if I zoom out I can see a corridor that has lights on it even though this character has not reached that corridor yet. See the image, the corridor is on the south part of the map, and is well beyond the Darkvision range.
51246
You can also see that the top-right character can see another room to the north-east that is separated by a long empty area, just because it's in range with the darkvision - the walls don't matter.

Here, instead, is what it looks like on my DM instance, with player vision preview mode:
51247
I'm glad my players were honest and told me, because as you can see I couldn't have noticed from running just my instance.

[jharp]

100% certain there will never be regression testing at release of a new patch. Too many maps with too many FoW entries.

Jason

[Lo Zeno]

100% certain there will never be regression testing at release of a new patch. Too many maps with too many FoW entries.

Jason

I have just now replicated this issue with a new map created from scratch from a hand-drawn picture made by me, with walls hand drawn by me, and light hand-placed by me. So it's not an issue of this specific map, but a general vision and walls issue - which means it can be regression tested. As it should be.

[Laerun]

Check to see if you have any extensions enabled and also if you have Party Vision in the 'enabled' state. These factors can contribute to confusion or errors.

Try without 'One-Click' Druid: Extension enabled. This tool has some features that might affect or change token behavior on maps. Whenever you encounter things that are bugged or broken start by disabling all extensions and work from there. If it's not the extension, then hopefully the bug can be determined.

[Zarestia]

51244


Before going on a rampage have you tested if LoS works if you enabled it maybe for the players and not only the GM?

https://i.imgur.com/L51QXAw.jpg

[Lo Zeno]

Before going on a rampage have you tested if LoS works if you enabled it maybe for the players and not only the GM?

https://i.imgur.com/L51QXAw.jpg

Good point. But have you noticed that the player's vision preview button made me see things differently from the players?

[Lo Zeno]

Check to see if you have any extensions enabled and also if you have Party Vision in the 'enabled' state. These factors can contribute to confusion or errors.

Try without 'One-Click' Druid: Extension enabled. This tool has some features that might affect or change token behavior on maps. Whenever you encounter things that are bugged or broken start by disabling all extensions and work from there. If it's not the extension, then hopefully the bug can be determined.

I have several extensions, but I have disabled them all when I took the screenshots (as I immediately assumed one of them was to blame). Party vision is OFF.

[Lo Zeno]

Before going on a rampage have you tested if LoS works if you enabled it maybe for the players and not only the GM?

https://i.imgur.com/L51QXAw.jpg

On the right: my DM instance with Player's Vision enabled, and all layers enabled for the players.
On the left: my local Player session, where the selected player can see everything around them in a circle within the distance of their Darkvision. FoW has been reset completely, it's the first room in the dungeon, no other or movement done yet.

51250

[Moon Wizard]

If the the LoS layer got toggled off at some point (or the LoS option got toggled off) and the player's token was on the map, then the LoS would be added to the token FoW. That's the grayed out section that the player token is showing vs. the bright area of what is in current LoS.

Have you tried re-dragging the player's token from the combat tracker to the map to reset the FoW (or right click on token and select Visibility->Clear FoW option)? Then, see if it's still an issue.

Regards,
JPG

[Lo Zeno]

If the the LoS layer got toggled off at some point (or the LoS option got toggled off) and the player's token was on the map, then the LoS would be added to the token FoW. That's the grayed out section that the player token is showing vs. the bright area of what is in current LoS.

Have you tried re-dragging the player's token from the combat tracker to the map to reset the FoW (or right click on token and select Visibility->Clear FoW option)? Then, see if it's still an issue.

Regards,
JPG

I have cleared every character's FoW in the last screenshot I took. This makes me think that the issue is actually about the Fow not actually clearing, then. Then again, why would the FoW show on the player's screen, but not on the DM's screen when I click the player's vision preview?

[Lo Zeno]

Have you tried re-dragging the player's token from the combat tracker to the map to reset the FoW (or right click on token and select Visibility->Clear FoW option)? Then, see if it's still an issue.


I think I'm experiencing a mix of small issues, here. I've just done the following:
1- removed all characters from the map
2- re-added them one by one. For good measure I have also manually reset FoW on every token (the right click->visibility-Reset Fow option).
3- here's the resulting screen on my DM instance:
51251
Notice that the short corridor on the nort-west corner of that room is supposed to be behind a secret door.
4- I added my test character ("The Tester"), with effects for Darkvision 60 feet and torch light, and this is what I see on the DM instance with the player's vision preview:
51252
This is exactly how I would expect my players to see the room
5- opened a second local FGU session
6- this is what "The Tester" sees:
51253
Notice that the corridor on the north-west corner is not grey like it should be if it was FoW, but it's in full color (the floor is mouldy-green). It shouldn't be visible, it should match what the DM sees on the 2nd screenshot.

[Zacchaeus]

Have you looked at the layers. Looks like you have two layers (in addition to lighting which is on a different layer from either of the other two). Only one of your layers has line of sight and the other does not. Could be an issue but I've not done a lot of experimenting with layers so I don't know. Might also be your theme? Not sure what that is but it seems to change a lot of things. And have you tried in a new campaign without extensions? And I mean not just switching them off but starting a new campaign without any extensions (including themes since that's an extension as well).

[Lo Zeno]

Have you looked at the layers. Looks like you have two layers (in addition to lighting which is on a different layer from either of the other two). Only one of your layers has line of sight and the other does not. Could be an issue but I've not done a lot of experimenting with layers so I don't know.
Keeping things in separate layers has always been the recommended way of handling things in FantasyGrounds in most threads in this forum, and it's what I have always done in my maps (one layer for lighting, one for ambient light when present, one for walls, one for the actual background of the map). It does help with housekeeping and in some cases allows for some pretty nifty tricks by enabling and disabling layers (e.g. have different backgrounds and lights on different moments of the day, or when some map-level event happens like a giant digging its way out of the ground in a section of the map). It's never been an issue in years, but I'll try to consolidate things in one layer only in another campaign, and see if it is a workaround I can use for now.


Might also be your theme? Not sure what that is but it seems to change a lot of things.
The theme is "Sir Motte's Magnificent Darkness - Hearth Edition" (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/12/view). I've used it since August last year. I haven't yet tried changing it to one of the base FG ones, it will be the next thing I'll try.



And have you tried in a new campaign without extensions? And I mean not just switching them off but starting a new campaign without any extensions (including themes since that's an extension as well).
I haven't tried that yet, no - I haven't had the time. I'll try this together with disabling the theme.

[Zacchaeus]

I mentioned the layers just because it looked from the names that there were two different maps; but that's just a guess. I don't think multiple layers is the problem but something in your set up is the issue since it's only you that's seeing it. It's not a universal thing.

[Lo Zeno]

I mentioned the layers just because it looked from the names that there were two different maps; but that's just a guess. I don't think multiple layers is the problem but something in your set up is the issue since it's only you that's seeing it. It's not a universal thing.

A correction, respectfully: it's only me that's reporting it. I'm pretty sure it's not universal, but that doesn't mean it happens only on my specific machine.
I've also run this same adventure two times before in the last year, with two different groups of players, as I have created a module with all my map customizations and encounter tweaks that I need, and I always used the same list of extensions and theme, yet I didn't see the issue at all before. The last time I ran this map was last September and since then the theme hasn't been updated (the other extensions have been updated too, but as reported I've already disabled them in previous tests), the only thing that has been updated is FGU itself.

With the current group of players, we started the adventure on the 23rd, we did the intro, and closed the session as they entered the first room of the dungeon - everything looked fine and they could only see the square room and the exit on the west wall.
Then yesterday (30th) as soon as I shared the map, all six players asked me if they were supposed to see "that much of the map". Cue several attempts at unsharing-resharing the map, moving layers, reset FoW, toggle all the visibility settings and so on - with no result. Now not only the only meaningful update that happened between the two sessions was that of FGU itself, but the fact that the player vision preview on the DM's side does not match the actual players view on the players' instances of FGU kinda reinforces the idea that there's something happening a bit deeper than just being a fluke in my setup. I mean if I can't trust the preview to reliably show me what the players see, I can't even have a clue that there's something wrong with the adventure until it's too late.

[Zacchaeus]

Can you post your campaign files here and I can take a look. (If it's too big upload it somewhere and provide a link). Make sure the map is in the campaign and accessible.

[Lo Zeno]

Sure, here's a zipped file with the campaign

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhU4e1ugaj2RgtJ9nPBca_YbYD2iaQ?e=xepNLb

The map in question is linked in the first hotkey in the hotkey bar

[Zacchaeus]

Sorry, I'm unable to reproduce the issue so I'm of little help. Anything that shows on the player view for me exactly matches the DM player preview and vice versa. I don't have that theme nor any of the other extensions that you are using so I can't test with those. I'd probably suspect the assistantGM one or the indicators one but that's a guess. I don't know what BIDI does so I can't really comment on that. The only other thing I noticed was that a couple of your portraits were 3.2 Mb and 6.3Mb in size and have substantial resolutions. Portraits should be 100x100 and either png or jpg files. So you might want to have a look at that. I don't know whether this would cause your issue but it will probably cause other issues.

[Lo Zeno]

A few more attempts I made:
I created a completely new campaign, created an empty shell of a character for testing, but made the same exact map: the way I make it is I take the map from Dungeon of the Mad Mage (the official module), I add a layer with my customized background and overlap it to the original map to match the existing walls, then I lower the Alpha level of the original background so that the new layer is visible but the old one isn't. Then I add a layer with the lights (missing from the DoTMM module). All layers are then set as "visible to all".
This is how I've done it for the previous two runs of this adventure as well, and nothing I keep seeing the whole background in a Player's instance, as if the walls didn't matter. My players connect through internet, not in a local network, if that makes any difference.
At this point I'm splitting the map manually in multiple small sections and recreating the walls and encounters by hand because I need something ready for this weekend and I'd rather spend the time preparing the game for the group than debugging the issue (not that I don't want to figure this out anymore, but I can't keep the group on hold forever), and so far the two smaller maps I've made seem to work fine.

[Jiminimonka]

I'm running the Dungeon of the Mad Mage module.
Player characters can see BEYOND any wall, for the distance of their vision (e.g. if they have darkvision), and they can even move through walls; when they move through walls, though, on the player's view they are moved across the map as if the wall doesn't exist, while on the DM's view their characters are blocked in front of the wall.

The "player vision preview" button on the DM's view, though, shows everything as it should be (walls blocking the line of sight and stopping characters).

What my players see:

51242

What I see, with "player vision preview" selected:

51243

Note how one of the characters in the player's view managed to move across a wall and is in the "nothingness" between rooms, while in my (DM) view she is pressed against the wall as if she was blocked by it (which is what should happen)

What the walls layer looks like:

51244

And attached are the logs, too.


Now, I understand that bugs happen, but this particular kind of bug has happened a few times already in the past. It has always been fixed with a hotfix. Please get in the habit of doing regression tests before a release, because I had to cancel today's session since using a hand-drawn mask on the first level of Dungeon of the Mad Mage is, honestly, a daunting task.

Are the players screenshot sent by your players or are you making a 2nd instance and joining or is it just the show players view?

I ask this because I don't think I saw any player token selected in your player view maps. If you click on a token it shows the player view for that token. If you select none the view is different for the GM "Player View" than the actual player view.

[Lo Zeno]

Are the players screenshot sent by your players or are you making a 2nd instance and joining or is it just the show players view?

I ask this because I don't think I saw any player token selected in your player view maps. If you click on a token it shows the player view for that token. If you select none the view is different for the GM "Player View" than the actual player view.

For the post you're quoting directly, the player's screenshot comes directly from one of my players; for the posts after that, it's all me running a second instance on my PC. You can tell which token is selected by the presence of the black circle around it or, after I disabled the "token marker" extension, when I hover over it and you see the name "the tester" above the token

[Laerun]

, I add a layer with my customized background and overlap it to the original map to match the existing walls, then I lower the Alpha level of the original background so that the new layer is visible but the old one isn't. Then I add a layer with the lights (missing from the DoTMM module). All layers are then set as "visible to all".

This almost seems like a misunderstanding issue or something to do with the handling of adding custom layers to an established map with LoS already embedded on it.
The grid is always on top, and tokens on top of that.
Do you have a separate layer for your needed line of sight, or is the same line of sight that is originally attached or embedded to the original map?
If the LoS layer is a part of the official campaign map, you cannot drop a new drawing layer over the top of it and still have access to the underlying Los layer. . The LoS would have to be redone, entirely onto your newer layer. Official maps will allow you to add assets like furniture and such. However, drawing a completely new layer over the top of existing Los layers that are attached to an official and existing map with embedded walls may not behave as you think. Official maps are a bit less forgiving than something you put in yourself. It sounds like the characters are interacting in a layer that is only covering the original map layer with the LoS drawn onto the official map.
I don't know if that works for this case.if you import your own maps, or draw your own with tiles and map tools, it should be fine. Adding new layers on top of a protected and copyright image may not behave correctly in regards to LoS layers. If I understand what you mean or have done, you have placed your own layers on top of an official map. Not sure how or if that will work. It also might depend on how the original map was created initially. You might be able to export the XML data and load that with a custom map, but that's a bunch of extra rework. Is there any reason that you are not just using the included maps? The method you are trying to do is not going to work. You can use the alpha slider and such for any custom imported maps, or FG tiles, and then you would add your own LoS layer as the last process layer. You cannot just slap a layer on top of an official map with Los already on it and still have the ability to interact with the included LoS that is buried or covered by your attempt the color or build upon the included and official DnD5e maps. Players do not have the same layers access as the host, only the very top token layer.

Curious, not judging.

[Lo Zeno]

Is there any reason that you are not just using the included maps? The method you are trying to do is not going to work. You can use the alpha slider and such for any custom imported maps, or FG tiles, and then you would add your own LoS layer as the last process layer. You cannot just slap a layer on top of an official map with Los already on it and still have the ability to interact with the included LoS that is buried or covered by your attempt the color or build upon the included and official DnD5e maps. Players do not have the same layers access as the host, only the very top token layer.

Curious, not judging.

The reason I'm not using the original map is that the original map is like this:
51284

while the map I use is like this:
51285

It might seem silly, but the original maps provided by WoTC are just plain and empty and when a room is supposed to be full and cluttered it doesn't convey that feeling. Also, colour maps are prettier and just look better, and I have added some personal modifications to certain rooms to make the encounters more interesting.
I don't understand this:

The method you are trying to do is not going to work.
I'm not "trying to make it work", it's always worked. As I said, I've used these maps, with these exact steps, two times before; I follow that process with every module I play (I like to replace bland maps with colourful ones), and it actually always works: even if the LOS walls in an official map is under the layer that I add, the LOS has always worked (I've done it with Lost Mines of Phandelver, Tyranny of Dragons, Dragon Heist, and Dungeon of the Mad Mage). It's also an approach that I found in these forums, not something that I came up with myself.

[Zacchaeus]

It should work, and it does. I've played about with the campaign you submitted and it is certainly working. I just can't reproduced anything like what you originally posted. So there's some step missing or something out of the ordinary somewhere. But I can't pin it down.

[Laerun]

The reason I'm not using the original map is that the original map is like this:
51284

while the map I use is like this:
51285

It might seem silly, but the original maps provided by WoTC are just plain and empty, and when a room is supposed to be full and cluttered it doesn't convey that feeling. Also, color maps are prettier and just look better, and I have added some personal modifications to certain rooms to make the encounters more interesting.
I don't understand this:

I'm not "trying to make it work", it's always worked. As I said, I've used these maps, with these exact steps, two times before; I follow that process with every module I play (I like to replace bland maps with colorful ones), and it actually always works: even if the LOS walls in an official map is under the layer that I add, the LOS has always worked (I've done it with Lost Mines of Phandelver, Tyranny of Dragons, Dragon Heist, and Dungeon of the Mad Mage). It's also an approach that I found in these forums, not something that I came up with myself.

I understand, perhaps a behavior has recently changed or maybe you have discovered a new bug for the client-side of things? Interesting. I do like your new map nonetheless. Have you tried to disable the assistant GM extension prior to testing? I suspect that might be a potential problem out of all of your extensions. You might be able to show this to SilentRuin and see if he has noticed anything lately, he is the maker of the Assistant GM extension which changes the way the maps, the CT, and PCs are such are handled.

Hmm

[Lo Zeno]

Have you tried to disable the assistant GM extension prior to testing? I suspect that might be a potential problem out of all of your extensions.

Yeah, I have, I have disabled all the extensions before taking any screenshot at all. As soon as my players told me they were seeing too much, the first thing I did was ask them to reconnect after I disabled all the extensions (the only one I kept was the theme), and once they reconnected one of them took the player's side screenshot while I took a screenshot of my instance.

I'll have to wait after this weekend to do more testing though, as right now I'm cutting the map in smaller "sections" and re-building all the encounters so that I have this weekend's session up and running at least.