D20 vs. Savage Worlds

[andro1d]

Just looking for some conversation. I'm running a D20 game (Orcfest) and have played about 6 games of FG2 now with a group of 5 (including myself in that count).

We are almost done and I've bought the Savage World rule set and am intrigued. It seems to me that it would better suit this interface as when you're not sitting across from each other and seeing the DM set up figures, look in books and pen and paper modules, there can be game killing lolls in the action.

SW seems to better bridge that gap allowing fast paced combat with on the fly rule decision making.

Before I make the leap and potentially frustrating my players into changing over to a new rule set 6 games into the campaign, I'd LOVE some feedback from folks who are familiar with FG2 and have played both rule sets (as a player or dm).

Andro1d

[Sgain]

I've been playing SW for about a year now, and would never even think of going back to a d20 system. The flexability and ease of play of SW, not to mention how much my players like it, versus the confusion, rule reading, endless preparing, and slow combat in d20 and general confusion with the constant additions of new feats, prestige classes and spells made the system more of a chore than a pleasure.

d20 is designed from the ground up to make you spend money on new reference materials and do munchkin-like calculations to get anything done. It just plain wore me out and my group and I threw up our hands after reaching about 9th level and having to deal with the confusion of the system.

SW is flexable, you can create and run games on the fly, as I often do, with little or no difficulty. Characters are free to individualize themselves with much more diversity than allowed in d20, and that is a lot of fun. Monsters and NPC's can be either complex or simple to design and run, its up to the GM not the creators of the game system.

As to using FG2 for SW, frankly I just bought the product and haven't run a game with it, but it seems pretty complete and should work. You'll have to convert your campaign over to SW (easily done actually) and do some practice runs with your players. I recommend heading over to the PEG forums and checking out some of the threads about running games. There are also lots of things (player aids) that your group should take a look at before/during play to make the rules make more sense, especially some of the combat aids that players have made.

[Tropico]

This is just my opinion from online SW / d20 playing experience.

SW is definitely lighter and faster. There's a lot more focus on the stuff that's happening as opposed to how we're going to determine if it is or is not happening. There is no confusion or hesitation because everything comes down to the same thing: roll your stat, 4 or more is success.

Also, idono, there's something more to it somehow.. I can't really put my finger on it.. like players are more confident to just roll with it instead of waiting to see what happens. There's a lot less of a feel of 'did I make it??' and more of 'YES I made it haha in your face!!'. The static never-changing DC of 4 has a lot to do with it, but it's more than that.. It's like the general design of the system itself has a better aim on what really are 'need to roll' situations, as opposed to 'just rolling for the sake of rolling' situations. That is just my feeling of course.

Also the mechanic of stat die + wild die with exploding is actually quite fun to watch all by itself and feels very satisfying when you get saved by your wild die, or when you blow up with a string of aces (which almost never happens :p ).

The combat feels more 'cinematic', if that is the right word. I mean to say when I'm actually in a combat in SW it's a lot easier to imagine everything happening smoothly like in a movie in my mind, I can actually 'feel' throughout each turn how my character is gradually trying to run quietly and circle around the wolf while the other guys take shots at it, for example, whereas with d20 its more like a strategic thing, like I'm thinking over my moves, like chess (but fun).

That said, it definitely has its uses and not-uses... to date I've played SW games in a Victorian 'horror' setting, a pulpy 'detectives' 60ish type thing, an X-files TV-show type setting, and a Pirates game. They've all been awesome, yet on the other hand, I'm also in a couple of smashing fantasy dungeon-crawling games using d20, and I gotta say I have a really, really hard time imagining SW trying to pull off that super-deadly 'Undermountain' feel, or that abandoned, yawning 'Dwarven Monastery' feel. It doesn't gel in my mind. For that kind of game I definitely like d20 (though I'm very curious about Castles & Crusades currently!).

In the end SW seems more for that TV-like, fast acting, lots of stuff happening at once type of game, where you remember everything afterwards like you just watched a cool movie from the inside out, while d20 seems more for that gradual, dangerous, slow-moving tactical dungeon exploration. Personally what I've found is, I enjoy both :)

Edit -> Oh and as for the ruleset, it's pretty much dead-on. Any complaints I've had are extremely minor. It does the job for SW just as well as (if not better than) the original does for d20. Not much more to say than that really.

[Waldo Pepper]

I'll echo what the others said: I've been GMing for 24 years and have played D&D since 1st edition, including years of D20. I've grown very tired and fed up with the system with its infinite number crunching, min-max design, wonky spellcasting, unrealistic HP system, and pigeon-holing class system. It also has a tendency for the rules to define the setting, rather than the reverse. Online games only exacerbate these problems.

Savage Worlds jettisons much of that and is a much more steam-lined and cinematic system. Some people will miss the crunch of D20, but if I want real combat crunch I play Burning Wheel or Riddle of Steel. SW delivers exactly what it claims: Fast! Furious! Fun! While I can see Tropico's point about it not "feeling right" for fantasy dungeon-crawls, I can't help but wonder if that's largely because D20 (well D&D actually) defined that type of play: Anything else feels different. My guess is that SW would work just as well once you abandon those preconceptions. I can't say for sure since at the moment I'm very much into contemporary horror type stuff and haven't been doing a lot of fantasy using SWs, although I do have an Iron Kingdoms PbP game using it and it seems to work just fine.

I would definitely give SW a shot: It is different than D20 but most players in my experience really like it once they get over the initial "but....it's not D20!" shock.

[Sgain]

I've used SW for fantasy, horror, sci-fi, vietnam era, modern cyberpunk, modern horror and pirate type games. The system works great for any type of gaming with little or no work. For fantasy games it rules as it allows players to actually 'think' their character design rather than 'building' one. My group and I have found dungeon crawls to be way more interesting and exciting than the d20 'level-based' feel of most games. Without having levels in the traditional sense even newer 'low-level' characters can put up a good fight against tough opponents if they work together or fight intelligently.

One other thing I've noticed with SW over d20; my players don't discount 'wimpy' critters anymore. In one battle a swarm of kobolds attacked them and used group tactics to incapacitate them while a few well placed sling shot rocks took out the groups 'wizard' before he had a chance to cast any spells. The action is always fast and fun, the players aren't limited by not having needed skills, and Bennies can really save the day when a PC flubbs a roll.

Give the system a good try and you'll see. I'm still learning the ropes of FG or I'd be running a game or two using SW.

[Griogre]

Hmm maybe a contrasting view. I've played a little SW and got the Pirates of the Spanish Main book which I am looking forward to running. I don't really see the system as all that fast the way Toon and Amber are. It's not slow but it does use a double set of dice rolls to hit and see if you have damaged your opponent. In speed I would say it runs as fast as the old d6 games like Starwars, Shadowrun and the d10 games like Vampire, Ars Magica. In fact, in feel it really is very much like WH40K.

It's a faster game than 3.x D&D and most of the time its probably not much slower than AD&D except it does have some of the baggage of called shots and other special attacks. However, I'm not real sure how much faster it really is when the SW characters can routinely make mulitple attacks. Probably depends on the setting.

Frankly I don't think SW is any better or worse on this interface assuming the players know the system. In the OP's case they *won't* know the system. SW is not a rules light system but not a difficult one either.

I think you should run the system that matches what you want out of a campaign. I personally think it is more work to run a campaign made for a different system in another one. If you are going to run a D&D campaign - then run it in D&D. If you want to run a SW campaign then run it in SW don't try to shoehorn a campaign from one system into another - you are likely to get the worst of both systems that way. IE Core D&D sucks for mass combat with lots of NPC's, yet that is an area SW is good at. If you convert most D&D adventures they won't have mass combats so you are missing out on one of SW's best features. My long 2 cents.

[Waldo Pepper]

Keep in mind that the SW ruleset handles the wild die automatically which means you really don't do much more than ever make a single motion to roll dice: You roll your d whatever for your skill and the d6 flies out there automatically. It also handles exploding aces automatically. :D There are also virtually no charts or detailed calculations to make in order to determine success.

[andro1d]

You guys have all articulated your thoughts wonderfully! I very much appreciated the feedback.

We had an encounter a few nights back, where in the Orcfest mod, one of my PCs was challenged to a wrestling match by an Orc during the Orc festival (you'll have to know the mod to know the scene I'm referring to).

I had imagined it to be an exciting moment and it ended up a drag. I sometimes feel like D20 simply does not "want" imaginative combat, or at least does nothing to reward it. So it was a: make an attack check, ok a grapple check, now an oppose check, make another attack check -4, rinse, repeat, yawn...

I assume some responsibility here. I think I've let the rules dictate the experience, which I haven't quite figured out how to fix with D20.

I used to run Feng Shui game (action movie role-playing). It was kick-*** and Savage Worlds reminds of a more disciplined version of that game in ways.

I think I'll finish up Orcfest in D20 and pick up Evernight and convert their characters over and give it a whirl. Anyone know where you can find a copy other than the .pdf?

Thanks again,
Andro1d

[Sgain]

One of the drawbacks to the SW system is that it actually requires the players to learn a bit about combat to get the most out of it. In the case of the wrestling match the player could have tried a trick (or heck even one of his friends could have tried distracting the orc), then tried a called shot, or some other tactic. Don't let the first few times you play the system be you guide. You and your players aren't used to actually being able to just do things on the fly since you've got the d20 mentality (I'm a fighter..I have to do this...I'm a wizard; I cast spells) play around with the system and give it a shot, also did your players download any of the game aids that are out there? Some of them detail combat tricks and moves and really help.

Evernight is a SW plot line campaign..I don't think it would work in d20 as the critters are really tough, and the PC's aren't at first.

[Waldo Pepper]

Evernight's a cool campaign setting and plot line. You might try a search online for a retailer who still has the book: I *think* it might be out of print at this point (at least Pinnacle doesn't offer it as a physical book ATM).

[Tropico]

Frankly I don't think SW is any better or worse on this interface assuming the players know the system. In the OP's case they *won't* know the system. SW is not a rules light system but not a difficult one either.

This is a good point, if you put a d20-familiar group and a SW-familiar group playing against each other, I wouldn't say SW would turn out absolutely, verifiably, time-it-with-a-chronometer style faster. It depends on the group. And it is slower and harder to explain wild die, exploding die, die-stats etc to a totally new player, than to just say, 'don't worry, just roll a d20, add this bonus here, and Ill tell you what happens'.

However, once you're up and running, gameplay does feel faster. You're always doing something, always something going on, you're drawing cards, you're going first, then you're going last, then you got a joker so you're going whenever you like, then you're ganging up with another player, you're spending a benny, you're drawing another card, then suddenly you're getting an ace-explosion so you know you critted that b*tch the instant the dice hit the table.

In d20, you wait for your turn, you describe what you want to do, you roll, you look at the dice, you see you rolled high, cool, so you wait for the GM to tell you whether you succeeded or not; you expect that you succeeded, but you still need the confirmation. In SW, you get a 4, you did it, end of story. That's why I personally think that so many people say SW is faster, maybe it's not actually that much faster, but the return of the reward-gratification for what you do, feels faster, because it's instant.


If you want to run a SW campaign then run it in SW don't try to shoehorn a campaign from one system into another - you are likely to get the worst of both systems that way. IE Core D&D sucks for mass combat with lots of NPC's, yet that is an area SW is good at. If you convert most D&D adventures they won't have mass combats so you are missing out on one of SW's best features. My long 2 cents.

I totally agree with this... sometimes you want each class to be narrowly, strictly defined. Sometimes you want to say 'ok dude, you're the wizard, you cast the spells. Got it? Good.' (When playing with board-gamer type, which I often do, this especially is a Desirable Thing). Sometimes you want there to be hit points that you can count down and whittle down to zero. When do you want this? For me, I want this in dungeon crawls. Other people might not care either way, and that is cool :)


Keep in mind that the SW ruleset handles the wild die automatically which means you really don't do much more than ever make a single motion to roll dice: You roll your d whatever for your skill and the d6 flies out there automatically. It also handles exploding aces automatically.

Haha, I second and third this... there's just nothing quite like when you hit that WILD button and see that cascade of dice that you know means all your wishes just came true :D so fun.

[Griogre]

In SW, you get a 4, you did it, end of story. That's why I personally think that so many people say SW is faster, maybe it's not actually that much faster, but the return of the reward-gratification for what you do, feels faster, because it's instant.

Pretty much agree with Tropico but would like to say that this depends on what setting you are in. In Dallis Station, a future setting, this is true because 90% of the time the characters are shooting. In Pirates of the Spanish Main this is not true becuase melee combat's target number is not 4 it varies for each character and NPC. In PoSM you probably are going to have a round where people shoot while boarding and then close with cutlasses except for a few marksmen in the fighting tops. Probably more combat rounds will be with hand to hand combat that shooting. This combat will feel much more like the d20 system than the shooting combat.

[andro1d]

I had made some mock-up skirmishes with NPCs to see how the battles ebbed and flowed on FG2 and SW ruleset. I think Tropico nailed it with the idea it feels faster, because I felt exactly that there was more to do; more things happening.

But actually, the battle itself took as long as a d20 battle did, maybe longer with bennies thrown for the wild cards, where they may have bit it quicker as 1st or 2nd level characters.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that thinks HPs are ridiculous. I could never wrap my mind how a sword did 1d8 damage and you could have 158 hps. Even 25 - 35 hps you never would feel that tense moment in battle as you think, "Ha! Big deal. It's just an Orc with a long sword".

When I was running A Game of Thrones games, at least Guardians of Order had come up with Shock, where if you took more than half your CON in damage, you had to roll save or fall down shocked. Very brutal, but every fight kept everyone realizing it's do or die time.

Andro1d

[Griogre]

Hit Points, Body Levels, Shock, whatever they are called are just an abstraction of what a character can take before falling down. They are in SW too, you know. Wild Cards have 3, extras have 1. You can just as easily argue why do wild cards have more than 1 - especially with bennies.

I personally am not real fond of games with bennies or hero points or what ever - because in the fight against the BBEG the side that runs out of bennies first loses.

I.E. "Captain One-Eye shoots Jim Hawkins right between the eyes... oh OK you use a bennie... but at the last second the shot is deflected by a falling rigging block - missing Hawkins."

"Harkins swings over on a rope slicing at Captain One-Eye. Looks like a great cut... Yeah, but One-Eye spends a bennie... but the black hearted villain ducks safely out of the way."

No real differance in my mind between the bennies making the players feel invincible or the 30 hps vs the orc with a longsword.

[longarms]

"Hit Points... are just an abstraction of what a character can take before falling down."

Yea, I can wrap my head around that concept easily, but it doesn't change the fact that I think they are terrible for gameplay. I think they are terrible for gameplay because they act as this weird meta-game cushion of safety that impedes this GM's efforts to create suspense in a battle until after hes worn the PCs down with an hour or more of combat. This reason is a big factor for why I have always preferred running low level games.

I have been reading the SW rules and I think the upshot is that this community is about to have yet another savage worlds DM at its disposal :) So I hope lurkers reading this thread starting picking up the SW rules - so they have the most possible game options available to them! Here is a link to the free test drive document, if you read this you should have enough info to jump in an SW campaign.

https://www.peginc.com/Games/Savage%20Worlds/Downloads/SW%20Rev/TestDrive4.pdf

[VenomousFiligree]

I have been reading the SW rules and I think the upshot is that this community is about to have yet another savage worlds DM at its disposal :)
Woo Hooo! Nice to hear! :D

[Sorontar]

I think they are terrible for gameplay because they act as this weird meta-game cushion of safety that impedes this GM's efforts to create suspense in a battle until after hes worn the PCs down with an hour or more of combat. This reason is a big factor for why I have always preferred running low level games.


Low level doesn't solve it sometimes

We used to run with 2 DMs in the house and one day the other DM called me into the Kitchen.

"Whats the matter"

"How the hell am I supposed to create a threatening atmosphere when a player turns round to my face and says "Hmm I've got 20 HPs and he's threatening me with a light crossbow you say, well on a crit he can only do 16 base damage. I'll charge him as he can't kill me with a single shot"

Shaking my head

"Just cheat and change it so the bolt has Bane on it, either that or shoot the wizard"

Now give me Rolemaster and a 1st level fighter with a crossbow is something to worry about as my mates 15th level rock hard fighter found out when the bolt went through his heart :D

[VenomousFiligree]

Now give me Rolemaster and a 1st level fighter with a crossbow is something to worry about as my mates 15th level rock hard fighter found out when the bolt went through his heart :D
Or Savage Worlds where any roll can Ace...

:)
MB

[Oberoten]

*grins* Best series of rolls ever in Arm : Zombie, No skill... thrown rock. Wild-die did indeed run wild. Six ones followed by a eight... 512 -3 for no skill, minus -2 for Zombie lack of dexterity. "Ohdear... "

Damage in Arm is an effect of how good the hit is...

[Stuart]

I have been reading the SW rules and I think the upshot is that this community is about to have yet another savage worlds DM at its disposal :)
No disrespect to all the SW fans out there Longarms but wait until Rolemaster comes out for FGII ;)

[Oberoten]

No disrespect to all the SW fans out there Longarms but wait until Rolemaster comes out for FGII ;)

I'd LOVE to get a shot at Rolemaster again. :) It has been years and it was a GOOD system... aside from all the infernal tables. If the tables could be made a bit... automated that'd be VERY good.

[Sgain]

we used to call it 'Rulemaster'. Those sheets! I loved the setting, but hated the mechanics of that game. We also played Harn (similar if not nearly identical system); great world and history, crazy system.

One thing I love about SW is that for me as GM I can easily and quickly make encounters on the fly, and make them tougher just by making the enemy into a WC. So I can make a group of orcs and then add a sergeant for them all in one stroke. It doesn't take me a half hour to make a major baddy, in fact I can usually fudge one up almost instantly. Compare that to the insanity of a 3 page character sheet that I recently found in a Dungeon magazine, an impossible task for the GM to actually know and use during play.

I also recommend spending some time getting really familar with the edges and Hinderances (especially the monster ones) as a GM, this makes it much easier to run encounters and gives way more challenge to your players.

[longarms]

I have familiarity with rolemaster from playing the text based MUD gemstone. I think its a great combat system; so great that other combat systems used in other computer games always seem boring after you have played rolemaster.

That said, I can barely keep FG combat moving when I track the hit points in certain d20 battles. The idea of tracking specific injuries and their effects along with hitpoints for each monster while trying to keep combat moving seems... impracticle to say the least. Unless the FG adaption made all this stuff perfectly automated, I don't think I would be willing to try it on the DM side.

[Andugus]

I have been gaming since '80. I am going to make a simple statement. At this point in time, there is no better online tabletop roleplaying system than Savage Worlds. Bear in mind this is my opinion and I base my opinion on years of trying every imaginable game system out there.

Everything I run and write will be for SW. Game on.

[Sgain]

I have to agree 100% with Andugus. I won't ever go back to d20 systems for DM'ing as they are such a huge waste of time with their endless rules/addendums/feats/prestige classes/ ect. I spent about 3/4 of my DM prep time just wading through all the BS in d20 to set up my game.

I haven't had a chance to play or DM an SW game with FG yet, but I used the system last night in my PnP game (to run NPC's and project maps and images for the players) and we all loved it.

The SW system looks silly at first to folks coming over from 3.5 since its so minimalist, but once you realise that your character can pretty much do anything with a bit of creative thinking, the game unlocks a players and DM's actual Roleplaying talents. You don't have to consult charts or reference material to do something, just set a goal for it and have the player roll his chance. The simplicity of this sort of thinking really pays off when not in combat, as the players can think outside the box to accomplish goals and keep the story flowing forward.

I also love being able to have large battles flow relatively quickly without a ton of paperwork, and its easy to take over another player if they aren't available, or an NPC or two.

Give SW a serious try and I'm sure most players will switch.

[Wanderer]

I'm new to SW (1 session in FG II), and old in DnD (8 years or so, 7 in 2nd Ed and 1 in 3rd Ed) . Here are my comments, having read the thread to date:
- 1d8 long sword vs 158 HPS characters: I've played at least 3 different variants of critical miss, and hit, techniques. These can make anything lethal - some are cumbersome, other seem like they might have been the birthplace of 'aces'. Anduin tables (name?) - you roll a crit, roll % dice. 97+ tpycially = outright kill unless immune (like sever head on a gelatenous cube). Examples - best story on this - DM had a 2nd level paladin he wanted to get up to 4 th. Rolled a random encounter - encounters a flight of 3 solver dragons.... in an area where a force is converting all dragons to evil. Long story short - 1 dragon attacks, player winis init, rolls 20, 100%, decapitates dragon. Next round (next dragon lands - limited space). Player wins init, rolls 20, 99% - dragon dead (forget the table reason). 3rd round - 3rd dragon flees in terror, thinking player is a demi-god... (that story always puts a grin on my face)). 2nd system - multiplier. on attack, it you roll 10 or 20, and it is a hit (relevant for 10), then roll thaco again. ever time it is 10 or 20, roll again. At the end, ever 10 = +1.0 multiplier, every 20 = 2.0 multiplier. so 20+10+20+17 = 6.7 x damage. Example (another favorite story) - our party is sneaking into Iuz's land (greyhawk)... we are in a tavern when a pit fiend wrenches door of hinges and marches in. MD is expecting everyone to cower/run. Ranger (7th level) beats DM to punch, draws his longsword of slicing (+1, but +3 for pruposes of threat range) - attacks twice. ends up with 4.7x damage on first attack, 6.3x damage on 2nd attack, on a 1d8+8 (iirc). 11 x 15 or thereabouts, for over 150 hp damage in 2 shots. Fiend dead, cover blown, and session on hold for 10 minutes, in AWE!!

The above ARE extreme example, but d20 CAN have fast critical systems that give quick and high damage - ESP with FG II to automate it. That said, I did find the SW system quick for this (and I LOVED my 'level 1' PC getting a 35 damage shot with an arrow...

- lots of rules in D20. Yes. And an astonishing amount of house rules, and etc. etc. That will appeal to some, and not to others. All the tricks, etc. that SW has, have got similar things somewhere in the rules in d20... or in the ind of a good GM. For example - our entire party (less the cleric who was convening with his partriach), is travelling the sewer system, looking for clues to disappearances. We get abmushed, and in a bout of really bad luck , all 5 level 7-ish characters fail ghoul touches saves in rapid succession and we awake, tied up in a room. Bound hand and foot - no ropework tricks getting us out of it. After being introduced to one of the serious foes (DM created undead), my ranger decide to use his acrobat ((can't recall the 2nd ed name for the skill)) - and I call for rolling flick-flacks (think gymnasts), with the intention of hitting the locked door mid-flight with both feet. With some really lucky rolls, I not only make my flick-flacks, but smash the door and make my escape!! Later I come back with cleric support to save the day...
Is it in the ruleset - no... can the PC do it... well, as our GM said - tell me what you want to try and I'll tell you if you make it....

Personally, I STILL like all the source material that DND gives you. I think it makes growing home campaigns easier with all the source material. YES - they are tryng to make money from it, and in some of the bad old 2nd ed companion books, it was really poor imho. I would guess creating all the stuff in SW for the DM could mean quite a lot more work - inventing monsters, determining stats, make creatures that are actually killable, etc. etc. The DOWNSIDE of all those rules is rules lawyers (hmmm - my level 1 warrior looks at the strange rust-coloured monster, puts away his treasured family heirloom sword <<the only weapon he has ever used>> and picks up a wooden stick to attack...). Yes, players can 'try-it-on', but a strong GM will take control... especially in games where GM makes all the rolls (so players are ROLE-players) - that means he decided the last conscious heroes attack (a 1) against the lich knocks his animated skull out of the window of the mile-high tower, saving the day...

My point is ...(rambling I know), that strong players will find a way, and strong GMs will make any game hang together. For speed - just roll doce together (since no weapon I ever had did d20 damage, is it really easy to roll the ataack and damage at the same time. If the hit lands, then damage is already done - else move to next action/player)..

I am not anit-SW... I enjoyed the session I had, look forward to the next... and who knows, maybe I WIL be converted completely. But I see FG II as being an even more helpful tool for d20, if it can automate all the tables/etc.

[scytale2]

I agree that D20 with its infinite rules is much more useful for "computerising" than Savage Worlds.

I also feel that there is something rather enjoyable and satisfying about learning all the rules in D20. They add a bit of "guidance" to roleplaying, where Savage Worlds is much more player-reliant for ideas and creativity. Having said that never let rules get in the way of an enjoyable experience.

Having said that, let's draw breath and see what will happen with 4th edition, rather than consider what will soon be a defunct system.

[Waldo Pepper]

I enjoy SWs because you don't need to invent a lot of house rules to fine tune the system. Sure bennies give players an edge but that's what games with heroic PCs are supposed to be about. Otherwise the dragon should always win, period. SWs benny system gives the game more of a pulp-hero feel which I think suits the typical game better than something grittier. If you want something more realistic, then Riddle of Steel or Burning Wheel (which is a more balanced RPG system) are very realistic and potentially utterly brutal: You don't got into battle without a helmet in those games...

[richvalle]

Ok, I've found one flaw with the SW game. The small rule book!

No, it seems quite complete dispite being so small. But I brought it up to our bedroom to read one night and now I can't find it!

That NEVER happened with a d20 book!

:)

I hope it turns up soon... been missing for 4 days now. Maybe the kids swipped it. Darn kids.

rv

[Waldo Pepper]

Yeah but you can buy 2 more for the price of 1 D20 book. ;) On a more serious note, the revised edition hard cover has the same form factor as most D20 books.

[philth]

I have been gaming since '80. I am going to make a simple statement. At this point in time, there is no better online tabletop roleplaying system than Savage Worlds. Bear in mind this is my opinion and I base my opinion on years of trying every imaginable game system out there.

Everything I run and write will be for SW. Game on.

Kinda in the same boat. Played D&D (and other rpg's...1rst ed, 2nd ed, marvel, top secret, etc...)up from 80 - 95, and only recently considered picking the hobby back up. I took a look at the new 3.5 / d20 rules and I was overwhelmed. Even the character gen seemed a lot more timely than I remember, and I thought it should be an enjoyable experience not a tedious one.

That being said, after going over the sw rules in comparison, it was like a breathe of fresh air, I was always more about the story telling and role playing than the number crunching and being a rules nazi (how are you carrying all your equipment and where did you put it!!!!).... hope my friends like it cause thats what I'm running.

[Snikle]

I have played D&D since the old Redbox, back in what...'86 or something. I even ran a few 3.0 campaigns. Played strictly online in various forms since around '98. Frankly I hated D&D 3.0 online, just didn't suit my style to learn all those rules, purchase 10+ books. I searched for about 2 years for a system I liked, even made a few of my own trying to find what I liked.
Then I found Savage Worlds. I may experiment with other systems, but I doubt I will ever run or play in anything but a SW game again. Since I started using it in June, I have ran a sci-fi game, a short fantasy one-shot, and am now starting a 1930's pulp campaign, all with no real SW experience and little if any tweaking and all with 1 book. Why would I ever want to change to another game system?

I will be Savage until my last breath.

[Sgain]

One thing I really love about SW is that I, as the GM, don't have to know everything to play it. The rules are really simple and easy, and usually what happens is I get caught up in the storytelling so my players can help with any rules or errata stuff easily and quickly.
With the SW ruleset for FG2 its even easier to do stuff with the hotlinks for things like powers and edges and hinderences. I don't have to memorize or catagorize a ton of stupid counter productive rules to get the game rolling, and that more than anything else is why I love SW.

[Waldo Pepper]

Yeah, my experience with SW is that there are far fewer rules to 'get in the way" of fun, something which D20 has in spades...

[andro1d]

My regular pen and paper group had a session last night. We're playing D20 3.5. Anyways there was a battle with a high-level mage/fighter and one of our stubborn PCs was going to drop if he didn't withdraw so our bull-strengthed cleric was going to reach in, grab him and pull him out.

20 minutes later we finally figured out how it could be done. Is it a touch attack? Do both get attacks of opportunities against them as they both have bad guys threatening them? Is it a grapple check (you mention grappling in this group and your liable to have Pepsi dumped over your head). Is it a withdraw action with one of them resisting? Blah blah blah.

Game killer.

I'm not saying that with SW you don't have to think it through-but we spend so much time looking up rules in 3.5 over the little imaginative ideas that we simply just don't do anything imaginative anymore.

Andro1d

[Kunsgnos]

The two styles are like two of my favorite things to read. SW is like comic books. Quick, to the point, fast paced, and heroic. you dont need to worry about mechanics and rules. just go and kick some ***. D20 is like my favorite author Robert Jordan. Long, deep, epic, sometimes slow but there are shining moments that make the slow parts soo worth it, and much more rewarding. there are so many rules because thats like life full of rules. Ironiclly, trying to make the fantasy story more realistic. Its like SW is about having a fun time, and d20 is more seriouse. I personaly think SW is good because anyone with half a brain can DM. you do want a guy thats good at it, but in D20 you need a good DM to have a good time and when you get a great DM it is the best. Just my opinion though. D20 4 life