Chase Distances Are Off

[Mike Serfass]

How chases are handled in FGU has changed a few times. There isn't an updated video since the last change, and no wiki entry about it, and I'm confused on how chases now work.

From what I understand of how it's supposed to work, the cards can be spaced out to any distance and it should still work. At least, it seems I should distance them the size of their chase card highlights, which is 3 squares. That's a good spacing.
I set my Distance Multiplier to 50, the chase distance for vehicles / starships in the SWADE rulebook.
However, when I set up the map like this, the distance is multiplied by 3 every chase card.
This is shown in the first image.
50930
I have two ships 3 cards apart. This distance should be 150 (3 cards away x 50 = 150) but it's 300, which is the normal map distance (6 squares x 50 = 300).
If I move the ships another card apart, the distance becomes 450. This is not chase distance, in spite of chase being turned on. This is normal (non-chase) map distance, it just doesn't change the distance on the arrow until the chase card column changes.

If I move the cards to be 2 squares apart, the distance is now multiplied by 2. In this image, the ships are still 3 cards apart, but the distance is now 200. It should still be a chase distance of 150; instead it's 4 squares x 50.
50931

I have to move the cards one square apart, but then the only difference between chase and normal distance is that diagonal distance is not calculated. Which in this scenario is required because you'd have to stack tokens vertically in single file. I don't think that's how it's supposed to work.

I considered the calculations and thought I could set the distance to be 16.7 (50 / 3 rounded). Here's an image of that.
50932
So that isn't an option.

The only way I can figure out to finagle this into working is to set the Distance Multiplier to 25 and place the cards 2 spaces apart.
50933
I then move vehicles 2 spaces (e.g. 1 card) to change the chase distance.

This current implementation doesn't work for foot chases either, since it doesn't matter what you set the distance multiplier to. It always calculates against squares.

Also, it used to be that you could set up a lengthy chase by putting the cards in a grid. Distance would be measured left to right and top to bottom. In the image below, it would calculate the ships being 5 cards away (from 2 to king to ace to queen to joker to 5), which should be a chase distance of 250. Instead, it's calculating as 2 cards (and counting squares instead of cards).
50934
Was that removed? Now chases regularly run off the end of the map. I have to pause the chase to shift cards or shift the map and tokens.

I don't use any of the height indicator extensions because they interfere with how SWADE calculates distances. I also don't have chillhelm's C4 extension enabled for this demo. Chases behave this way with no extensions enabled.

Am I doing this wrong? Am I missing something? Or is this a bug? (I hope I'm doing this wrong rather than it being a bug.)

[TomtheBu]

If I remember correctly, the SWADE chase mode in FGU always used the normal distance calculation taking the number of squares related to the distance multiplier in the past. I can't remember using it another way for the last year or even longer. I use the range increment for chases as a guideline so I don't bother using ranges that are a bit different to fit my needs.

For space combat I use a multiplier of 17 and three squares so the relative distance between the chase cards is 51".

For foot chase I use a multiplier of 1 with five squares distance when having few cards on the map or a multiplier of 2 and three squares (6"), when the chase is mount or vehicular based or more chase cards are needed.

For airplanes a multiplier of 8 or 8.5 should work, then you'll have a distance between 24" and 25.5"

[srbongo]

From the screenshots it looks like you're using the Dogfights option instead of the regular chase rules. If the cards have a red square around them, they're supposed to be set up in a 4x4 or 3x3 grid (I cant remember which).

When you turn on the chase option on map, it takes the cards as columns and calculates distance between each single map-square column - just left and right.

If you right-click and turn on the Chase Highlight (and give it squares around the cards) then you arrange in a grid as per the Dogfight rules. With the highlight it turns that column into a 3 map-square wide space that calculates distance between the highlighted sections around the card (giving the distance the 3x multiplier).

If I'm reading your post right, then you should be able to turn off the chase highlights and have it calculate right.

I hope this explains things - it's pretty early and I haven't had all my coffee.

[TomtheBu]

Didn't know that switching the chase card highlight changes the distance calculation for dogfights. I thought it just shows the area covered by one chase card. Is this a new feature and is there any documentation for this?

[Doswelk]

50941 <== you did click this?


Have you enabled chase mode on the image?

After you add a card to an image a button appears that you click to enable chase mode.

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[TomtheBu]

It is like I remembered, the distance calculation doesn´t change when the chase mode is activated. It still counts the sqares of the grid so you have to place the cards with an appropiate distance multiplier. In a dogfight it counts down and then left or right or vice versa, diagonal distances are ignored as intended. The chase highlight has no effect on the distance calculation no matter if toggled on or off.

After testing around again, I came to following distance multipliers which work with the different SWADE Chase Modes as per rules:

Space Battle Dogfight: Distance Multiplier 16.75 for a distance increment of 50.25" (see image)

Aircraft Dogfight: Distance Multiplier 8.25 or 8.5 for a distance increment between 24.75" and 25.5" (see image)

Foot Chase: Distance Multiplier 1.75 for a distance increment of 5.25" (see image)

Trying getting closer to the original increments leads to a very long column of figures after the decimal point as Mike Serfass posted in his initial post.

[Mike Serfass]

Thanks for the responses! I'm glad to know it's not just me. I'm thinking this is a bug.

At one time there was a button to the left of the chase button that you used to set the chase distance. It was easy to find, easy to use, easy to figure out. You can see that button in Doswelk's (unfortunately) outdated chase video.
SW 5.1 Chases (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZRk0HAxoS8&t=166s)

You could stay on the encounter map, drop cards, hit the button, set the distance (it defaulted to 5), and off you went. If the characters started on foot then switched to cars, you just changed the distance to 25, and kept going. That easy. It calculated based on the card and its placement order, and overrode the map distance multiplier. And you could lay out a second row of cards if you ran out of map, and it counted the first card in the next row as if it were the next card in the row above.

I don't know where that distance button went, but I miss it. It was replaced with the more ponderous changing distance in the map editor.

Now, I have chase maps queued up with the distance pre-calculated, cards already placed, and an appropriate background image. Which works out better, since I use los and lighting and visual effects on encounter maps. That doesn't mix well with chases.

The dogfight is new to me. It used to calculate cards in a pattern so you could have longer chases that fit on a map. I actually like the dogfight change. It means I can have dogfights as opposed to chases. And still have chases, such as outrunning an enemy wing or trying to escape a planet while being chased by reavers. Thanks for pointing that out! It now makes sense. I'm going to put that to use in my current game.

Though I tried in both dogfight order and chase order and had the same results.

Unfortunately, toggling the card highlights makes no difference for me either. It made no difference when cards were in a line or grid. I think it's just to make it clear where the columns/grids are. I also tried putting the tokens inside the boxes, but that didn't matter either, not for chases or dogfights.

If you want some fun, lay out the chase cards in order as usual and toggle chase on. Then, juggle them around into a different order than they were laid out in. This will really mess with your players. Great for a scene where time or space is warped. (This also demonstrates that the card placement order is still used.)

[TomtheBu]

I don't think that it's a bug. I guess it's the way FGU handles chase mode since the beginning. The option next to the chase button to set the distance for the chase was how it worked in FGC. I remember Ikael mentioned, that FGU always calculates the true distance between tokens due to the API which is different to FGC. This was also true for diagonal distance but he was able to change this unwanted behavior with the help from Smiteworks for the sake of doing dogfight chases without issues.

[Lonewolf]

So far I am not seeing an issue. However lets just make sure my assumptions are correct in trying to replicate a bug. First off make sure grid snap is on. If you don't do this it will not work as the chase cards need to snap when placed on the grid.

Then go in and confirm grid distance in the map controls. For a normal chase just set the range increment value. For a dog fight this needs to be 1/3 of the value you want because one chase dog fight card needs nine map squares to make in easier to move tokens about. Lets make this simple and set the value to 1 for now.
The only difference between a normal chase and a dog fight. Is a normal chase measures columns of squares only. Dog fight will have groups of 9 squares and diagonal measurements.

Place your chase cards and right click on one of them. Turn on the card highlights visual indicator to see both the real grid and the chase positions. Turning it on only shows a guide on how place other tokens. It does not do anything more.

Now measure the grid. The value across left to right should be same before the chase cards where placed. The only thing the normal chase mode does is take away diagonal measurements. 51035
In the picture all ships are 5 miles apart.

[Mike Serfass]

@Lonewolf Grid snap is on. Cards are properly placed.

Your example works because chase is counting squares, not cards. In your example you have the cards placed in contiguous squares. Position them to be every other square apart. Move your ship tokens and watch the distance measurement. Now spread the cards to be every third square. Toggle on the card highlights. As you correctly said, the highlights indicate the chase position columns. So a token in the indicated column should count as that card, right? In my very first image, the ships are two cards apart. That should not count as 6 squares (300"), because it's in chase mode. It should count as two positions (100"). That's exactly how it works on the table. I place cards on top of the map, we ignore the map squares, put minis next to the cards to indicate their chase position, and count cards, not the squares in the underlying map. It doesn't matter how far apart cards are placed.

As for dogfights, image 5 shows this not working. A square diagonal to another square should be one card, not 6 squares. The image shows it counting 6 squares. That's incorrect, isn't it?

Is this technically a bug? At the least, it's a feature that doesn't work as expected. At one time this did work as expected. As it stands now, it makes chases finicky and inaccurate.

Here's what I expected:
I want to do a starship chase. Range increment is 50, so I set distance multiplier on the map to 50.
(It could be a car chase at 25" increments, or mounts at 10", or foot at 5", or frogs at 1". They should all work the same.)
I place cards on the map from left to right every third square. Because the highlight area is 3x3. I turn on the chase card highlight so it's clear to all players where each chase column starts and ends.
I put character tokens in the appropriate starting chase card columns.
I toggle on the chase mode button.
As tokens move along the chase cards, each card position is an increment of 50. Irrespective of which map square they're in and diagonal positioning.
So, one card away is 50", two cards is 100", etc. Grid squares are ignore for distance, they're only to keep tokens clearly within chase card columns, and to make it easy to move tokens.
The distance changes when they change chase card column position.
I can position cards any distance apart, and the chase distance calculates correctly. If I had a large chase, or a chase with large ships, or giants chasing characters, I could put cards five squares apart and it calculates chase distance correctly and consistently.
Bonus: There's a chase distance field next to the chase button where I can type in the chase distance. That measurement is used in chase mode, it's the distance multiplier of the chase cards, and normal map distance measurement is ignored.

Your post made me think this over. Perhaps some of my assumptions are incorrect, and I misunderstand how it works. The way it seems to want to be used (which makes sense with what you're showing) is this:
Chases should always be set up with cards in adjoining squares.
Don't use the chase card highlight for chases. They're only for dogfights.
Stack participants under chase cards in single file columns, like jenga.
Resize every token to take up only one square to avoid crowding or very tall stacks. Otherwise that means scrolling up and down as well as left and right to move and target.
Avoid chases with numerous participants because that would mean a crowded map and confusion. (Which may be the case no matter how chases work in FGU, to be fair.)
That doesn't seem straight-forward, and I hope that's not what's intended, but it does work.

However, dogfights still don't work with that approach. It still measures squares. Calculating dogfight distance by dividing by 3 is not at all intuitive, and it leads to strange distances. I tried that, and image 3 is the result. Besides, divide the standard chase distances by 3. Foot chases are 5", vehicle 25", starships 50". Even if chase distance was 1", 1/3=0.3333333333333333, which the map doesn't accept. So that can't be correct. This also makes range increments inaccurate. Look at TomtheBu's post where he does the math for us (thanks!). Two of his distances are off by 1, which is enough to put a ranged attack into the next increment when it shouldn't. So to make dogfights work, you'd have to arrange the cards in contiguous squares and stack tokens on top of the cards. Then range and distance would be correct. That can't be right.

It's possible that Ikael can't work around the way FG handles distance measurement. We may be stuck with workarounds and inaccuracies and division equations. Ikael has done impressive things with Savage Worlds, so I have hope he can improve chases.

[TomtheBu]

Hello Mike, I totally agree in this.

Setting up the cards in adjoining squares for a normal chase should do it.

For dogfights I see no other solution but to devide by 3 if you want to stay in the 3x3 squares per card.

I also made a little mistake in my range calculation.

For a space battle dogfight, the distance from one chase card to the next must always be smaller than the range increment (e.g. 50"), so the multiplier should be 16.5 (and not 16.75 as I posted before) to have each weapon range work properly. You´ll have 49.5", 99", 148.5", 198", 247.5", 297" and so on.

Or you place the cards every fifth square and set the multiplier to 10. Something similar you mentioned in your post above for normal chases with large ships or giants.

[Lonewolf]

Sorry Mike, I still don't see you point.


In your example you have the cards placed in contiguous squares. Position them to be every other square apart. Move your ship tokens and watch the distance measurement. Now spread the cards to be every third square. Toggle on the card highlights. As you correctly said, the highlights indicate the chase position columns. So a token in the indicated column should count as that card, right? In my very first image, the ships are two cards apart. That should not count as 6 squares (300"), because it's in chase mode.

Your own example you set one square at 50. So each playing card box is now 3 squares across so the mesurement is 150. If the ships are 2 cards are appart they are 2 times 150 = 300
Or 6 squares apart 6 * 50 = 300



It should count as two positions (100").


No you set two positions to 300 as your example shows.


That's exactly how it works on the table. I place cards on top of the map, we ignore the map squares...

There is part of you problem. This is FG not a physical table. Cards are not squares they are tokens on a grid. If you place the cards the computer needs to know where they are. So they get placed on a grid. If you trying to counting cards, your are really counting squares.

However we are not done here. I can think of a situation where things might break but it is an edge case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_case). So I will do a bit more research to try and duplicate your findings.

[Mike Serfass]

But Lonewolf, what you're explaining is the problem I'm pointing out. We're saying the same thing is happening under the covers.

The difference is, I contend that it should be counting cards and ignoring squares. The size and distance of the cards does not matter in this case. What matters is how many cards apart participants are. That's what should be calculated.

Granted, we need a grid to determine where cards are and which tokens are within each card's column. Once we know that, we don't have to count squares. We can count cards. Then multiply that by the distance modifier.

Set up a dogfight "properly" and measure distances. There's an easy, common use example that will demonstrate why it doesn't work as is.

[Doswelk]

But Lonewolf, what you're explaining is the problem I'm pointing out. We're saying the same thing is happening under the covers.

The difference is, I contend that it should be counting cards and ignoring squares. The size and distance of the cards does not matter in this case. What matters is how many cards apart participants are. That's what should be calculated.

Granted, we need a grid to determine where cards are and which tokens are within each card's column. Once we know that, we don't have to count squares. We can count cards. Then multiply that by the distance modifier.

Set up a dogfight "properly" and measure distances. There's an easy, common use example that will demonstrate why it doesn't work as is.

It used to work and it doesn't now, so it is a bug.

In the meantime we have a workaround to get by :)

[Lonewolf]

It used to work and it doesn't now, so it is a bug.

In the meantime we have a workaround to get by :)

As far as I can remember it works the same way as the initial 5.1 rules set release. Luckly we have one of the tutorial videos to look back on to check this. Since then we got the map controls on pop out side interface. So the range increment input has moved but it seems to have the same effect. It is measuring range as the same for all tokens next to a card. I am just so used to get passed the 1/3 limitation. After going through all the input choices. At this stage I honestly can't tell if it is broken or not. I just have that horrible nagging feeling :confused:

It just might be me trying to think too much about SWADE gun range bands multiplying by two at each step. On a grid with a range increment divisable by 3.

Right now the only thing that jumps out is the big floating point values that people can accidentally generate. If they input a fraction into the map scale. They can get a very tiny string of numbers displayed. I have also got to question if that huge accuracy is needed.