Wtf !!

[backwardoracle]

Sidebar looks rubbish after the new upgrade, please stop tinkering just for the sake of it really does add nothing to functionality, you put sidebar choices into options now removed it just a few months later, whats going on?

Theres no need to overcomplicate things by adding "New Cool" features that essentially do no improvement whatsoever, fix the basics firsts then pretty it up. please...

I want function over style everytime..

[Rainbird]

You have my sympathy - I agree completely - function over form every day for VTT! Change it back or give us all the option!

[Harald]

Kindly stop changing things which more or less work just for the sake of changing. It leads to nothing but frustrations.

[Zarestia]

I think the main driving point was that no one has to search for how to enable things every time.

Btw, this change has been in Beta for nearly 2 months https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?71007-Beta-Release-2021-11-Ruleset-Updates. Most people there seemed fine about the changes. If you voice your concerns while somehting is in development, there is a higher chance you get heard.

[Rainbird]

Err, this is a game for most people. Most of us don't have time (or the inclination) to monitor Beta development. Changing something this fundamental should have been better sign posted.

But from your response(s)it would appear I'm wasting my time trying to put my point across.

[Zacchaeus]

Err, this is a game for most people. Most of us don't have time (or the inclination) to monitor Beta development. Changing something this fundamental should have been better sign posted.

But from your response(s)it would appear I'm wasting my time trying to put my point across.

No, you've made your point. Unfortunately it isn't possible to please everyone all of the time. The last method of selecting the sidebar buttons caused a lot of confusion and support questions. So it has now been streamlined and made easier. The last version also caused a great deal of concern amongst adherents of the previous version and no doubt if it changes again there'll be posts like this as well.

Whether you see changes or not will depend on how closely you monitor the forums - the changes have been in test as mentioned for over two months and there have been several posts about them as well. However not everyone is going to pick up on that.

[Sterno]

If you want the sidebar gone, Celestian's "Better Menus" extension will probably do the trick: https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/69/view

[Rainbird]

If you want the sidebar gone, Celestian's "Better Menus" extension will probably do the trick: https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/69/view

Thanks for the suggestion - I don't want it gone, just kept the same width as not everyone has a large screen (I'm using 2x23'' monitors but my players are on laptops).

I'll give the extn a go.

[Kelrugem]

You can also use the /scaleui command in the chat to adjust sizes :) Since the sidebar just got slightly adjusted (I think? I didn't realize it until reading this thread), it may be easy to make everything smaller to get the original size while not loosing readability :) (let us know if you need help with the scaleui; there is also a setting for that in the launcher settings)

[Grommit57]

I like the changes. You can't please everybody.

[Jiminimonka]

Sidebar looks rubbish after the new upgrade, please stop tinkering just for the sake of it really does add nothing to functionality, you put sidebar choices into options now removed it just a few months later, whats going on?

Theres no need to overcomplicate things by adding "New Cool" features that essentially do no improvement whatsoever, fix the basics firsts then pretty it up. please...

I want function over style everytime..

I completely disagree with you, and the attitude in the title of the thread.

If the UI gets left alone people moan "its outdated and not a modern UI", and if it gets updated people moan "why did you change it"

It will take you about 3 minutes of use to get used to it. This update was also part of a major overhaul of the system to enable more modernisation and improvements.

[damned]

I like it quite a lot. It takes up less room if you minimise it. It looks good.
Im just struggling to fix MoreCore to be compatible with it!
Ill get there...

[Lo Zeno]

Sidebar looks rubbish after the new upgrade, please stop tinkering just for the sake of it really does add nothing to functionality, you put sidebar choices into options now removed it just a few months later, whats going on?

Theres no need to overcomplicate things by adding "New Cool" features that essentially do no improvement whatsoever, fix the basics firsts then pretty it up. please...

I want function over style everytime..

Respectfully, I disagree.
I welcome the new sidebar because it doesn't look cool at all, but it gives more space to the side once you collapse the "categories". It gives more screen estate to use, which FGU desperately needs since we can't float windows to multiple screens yet - that IS function over style.

[Metlore]

I really like the new button layout.

[backwardoracle]

With the greatest possible repect to eveyone here that has input their various opinions, being of a certain age, I personally dislike what I percieve to be change for changes sake, some other people have acknowledged that the sidebar is now in fact bigger than it was therefore actually reducing the available use of screen size, You can collapse the catorgories for sure but the sidebar remains exactly the same size irrespective of how many catagories are open/closed etc. So for those already using a small screen (e.g. Laptop users) it takes up even more space proportionally, if there is actually a method to hide the sidebar completly similar to a roll over mouse thingy, I would be interested. As while running a game I don't need 90% of them anyway, so the actual location is pointless.

For those that say, well its been announced in beta for some time. I neither have the time or inclination to indulge, I get my update info from the release notes, in which there was no mention of the UI change.

On a final note, Jiminimonka, your political comment is neither welcome nor appreciated, please keep those opinions to yourself, this is not a forum to tout your political bias.

[SilentRuin]

On a final note, Jiminimonka, your political comment is neither welcome nor appreciated, please keep those opinions to yourself, this is not a forum to tout your political bias.

If you are responding publicly to a private comment - this is not the place IMHO. For sure I read his comment (as it exists right now above) and I have no clue what your talking about with "political bias" commentary.

He's as welcome to give counterpoints to your venting about the update as you are to... well... vent about the update. I posted my opinions on this thread in my own thread so will refrain from saying more.

[Kelrugem]

I get my update info from the release notes, in which there was no mention of the UI change.
About the release notes: Sadly, ruleset updates are not listed in the launcher's release notes, only client updates. (In the past that was different) Ruleset updates are only listed in the city halls of the forums, https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?71672-FG-Ruleset-Updates-2021-12, or on Discord. In some other thread(s) we already discussed that it would be very nice and much better if FG would make patch notes much more visible :)

[LordEntrails]

All release notes are always linked from unique release entries in the City Hall forum.

Application release notes are tracked here; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/filelibrary/patchnotes_v4.html
Ruleset release notes are tracked here; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/filelibrary/patchnotes_ruleset.html

[Jiminimonka]

With the greatest possible repect to eveyone here that has input their various opinions, being of a certain age, I personally dislike what I percieve to be change for changes sake, some other people have acknowledged that the sidebar is now in fact bigger than it was therefore actually reducing the available use of screen size, You can collapse the catorgories for sure but the sidebar remains exactly the same size irrespective of how many catagories are open/closed etc. So for those already using a small screen (e.g. Laptop users) it takes up even more space proportionally, if there is actually a method to hide the sidebar completly similar to a roll over mouse thingy, I would be interested. As while running a game I don't need 90% of them anyway, so the actual location is pointless.

For those that say, well its been announced in beta for some time. I neither have the time or inclination to indulge, I get my update info from the release notes, in which there was no mention of the UI change.

On a final note, Jiminimonka, your political comment is neither welcome nor appreciated, please keep those opinions to yourself, this is not a forum to tout your political bias.

Twas a jest and not in the forum.

I wear glasses to compensate for a small screen being of certain age.

The updates to the UI take time and maybe eventually Smiteworks will add the option for the side menu to slide away when not in use. But it will take time and small steps.

[backwardoracle]

Was the rep also a jest?

Before Large Fonts from the forge I had to use the scaleui feature at 110% and I use a 24in monitor for running games in FGU, sometimes still struggle with that, using my laptop to craft games as I also do when I am away from home, available screen space is much more crucial so I have a great deal of sympathy for those with smaller screens.

[SilentRuin]

Was the rep also a jest?

Before Large Fonts from the forge I had to use the scaleui feature at 110% and I use a 24in monitor for running games in FGU, sometimes still struggle with that, using my laptop to craft games as I also do when I am away from home, available screen space is much more crucial so I have a great deal of sympathy for those with smaller screens.

I use ultrawide with 125% UI scale (old eyes not yet ready for reading glasses to compute). Screen real estate has always been an issue (though less with an ultrawide) that I don't think any update will ever be able to truly alleviate. Gist is - D&D 5E at least - takes a lot of different screens and maps to manage a game. And while there are lots of potential solutions - none of them satisfy all of the users. For sure I like the current UI and the technical reasons they redid them.

[ddavison]

Thanks for the feedback. The change is mostly for functional reasons. One of the biggest complaints we see are from new users who don't realize that functionality exists for features because they didn't see the sidebar buttons for it. Now, all the buttons are visible on the sidebar and hidden into categories when closed. You don't have to go to the Library or the Options menu to turn them on or off. This streamlines the user interface and makes it more intuitive. The text only buttons allows easier localization and theming options, but was very plain looking compared with the former graphical buttons from 2 revisions ago. This new version allows for those icons to be themed, built, or replaced to provide some form of graphics while still allowing for text based buttons that are more functional.

[Grommit57]

With the greatest possible repect to eveyone here that has input their various opinions, being of a certain age, I personally dislike what I percieve to be change for changes sake, some other people have acknowledged that the sidebar is now in fact bigger than it was therefore actually reducing the available use of screen size, You can collapse the catorgories for sure but the sidebar remains exactly the same size irrespective of how many catagories are open/closed etc. So for those already using a small screen (e.g. Laptop users) it takes up even more space proportionally, if there is actually a method to hide the sidebar completly similar to a roll over mouse thingy, I would be interested. As while running a game I don't need 90% of them anyway, so the actual location is pointless.

For those that say, well its been announced in beta for some time. I neither have the time or inclination to indulge, I get my update info from the release notes, in which there was no mention of the UI change.

On a final note, Jiminimonka, your political comment is neither welcome nor appreciated, please keep those opinions to yourself, this is not a forum to tout your political bias.

Exactly what political comment were you talking about. I fail to see one.

[Zacchaeus]

Exactly what political comment were you talking about. I fail to see one.
It was not made publicly but privately.

[Jiminimonka]

It was something like "dont say wtf in a post title unless you are talking about **fill in 2 politicians names here** lol" - super politcal stuff... but not made on a public forum. Give me negative feedback if you like, those green bars are so boring.

[Grommit57]

Then maybe public forum is not the place to deal with private messages.

[jharp]

Sometimes a public forum is the only place to deal with private messages.

[Weissrolf]

He's as welcome to give counterpoints to your venting about the update as you are to... well... vent about the update. I posted my opinions on this thread in my own thread so will refrain from saying more.
Well, yeah, but he uses private comments to humiliate people he does not agree with. So some of us don't care what he writes publicly.

[damned]

Please good people - be civil to each other.

[Grommit57]

Sometimes a public forum is the only place to deal with private messages.

I think you confuse the terms "Public Forum" and "Moderator". The later being the one he should have chosen if there was a problem with a private massage.
That said I am out of this discussion before it degrades any more than it already has.

[jharp]

So for those that don't like the new menus, can you please give me some ideas as to how it might improve. I'm thinking of just having a mod reduce the space used on the screen (both x and y). It already has a scrollbar so it scrolls nicely if you have limited Y. So I thought, why not just give it have the Y it wants. :)

I happen to like the icons but they are easy enough to remove in an extension. Anyways if you have some ideas that you think will help with real estate I'm happy to try to make it happen. I had thought to slight it right but when sliding it back left it won't z-order above other windows so you would need to move stuff out of the way to use it. This didn't seem helpful. Maybe I'm wrong.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jason

[Weissrolf]

Is the a modifier key that can be held to expand/collapse all sub-menus?

[Weissrolf]

I don't think Smiteworks can be accused to doing changes for the sake of change, usually rather the other way around. So the sidebar changes are really trying to solve some problem, but it is not the first try and may not be successful enough to be the last.

[Nebs]

I don't hate the sidebar, but I think it would be improved if we could set up our own categories and hide the tools we don't use. For example, I don't ever use the Quests, Story, or Notes tabs, but I'm stuck with them because they're lumped in with the Player and Campaign Tabs. Small things like this are really distracting as an ADHD DM.

Custom tab configuration would make the new sidebar absolutely awesome.

[damned]

So for those that don't like the new menus, can you please give me some ideas as to how it might improve. I'm thinking of just having a mod reduce the space used on the screen (both x and y). It already has a scrollbar so it scrolls nicely if you have limited Y. So I thought, why not just give it have the Y it wants. :)

I happen to like the icons but they are easy enough to remove in an extension. Anyways if you have some ideas that you think will help with real estate I'm happy to try to make it happen. I had thought to slight it right but when sliding it back left it won't z-order above other windows so you would need to move stuff out of the way to use it. This didn't seem helpful. Maybe I'm wrong.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jason

The menu has always been at the back - well - above the shortcutbar but near enough to the back. Celestians Better Menus works above other frames iirc.

[spoonhead]

I think Smiteworks are doing the best they can with what they have. The UI is hardly what you might call modern and crisp. And while it might fit in with a fantasy setting, it sometimes distracts from playing.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50399&stc=1&d=1639720673

If there is one thing I wish could be achieved (I have no idea if its possible), is the ability on the Client side to amend the font size or actual font used independent of the what the host uses. I have a large 4K screen which I like for real estate, so using the scaleUI isn’t an option, if I just want to be able to read text a little easier.

[damned]

Serious question.
Why do you not want to use scaleui?
That is how Windows handles high resolution screens.

[spoonhead]

Because I want to keep the screen real estate but have a larger font. If the GM doesn’t bother with a font extension (if they don’t have a large monitor), then I have to suffer with the default font size.

I understand FGU has issues with frame sizes and large fonts, hence why it might not be feasible.

[acadmcdonald]

Hi Fantasy Grounds Team,
I don't want to sound grumbly, but as a Mongoose Traveller Referee the new icons really don't fit with the Science Fiction theme at all.
Why can't these changes be added as an "opt in" improvement rather than having to use an extension to opt out.
The Mongoose Traveller FG tabletop has generally looked quite amazing, now it just looks kind of ridiculous with swords, potions, and orc icons peering out me.
My suggestion is that the Options Menu should have the ability to toggle different Menu Options on and off.

Hope this feedback is helpful.
Kind regards
Andrew

[Laerun]

sidebar looks rubbish after the new upgrade, please stop tinkering just for the sake of it really does add nothing to functionality, you put sidebar choices into options now removed it just a few months later, whats going on?

Theres no need to overcomplicate things by adding "New Cool" features that essentially do no improvement whatsoever; fix the basics firsts, then pretty it up. Please...

I want function over style everytime..

I sense your frustration. The FGU UI will evolve, regardless of how any changes individually affect or trigger us; I do not believe this was done arbitrarily just to do it.
I don't know of or think these visual UI changes are game-breaking or harmful to us other than the initial annoyance of getting used to where you have to click now, at the worst.
I can imagine having a 65/35% percent split in favor of the UI changes overall if we had to put a number on it conservatively.
Most of the UI complaints from entry-level or newer users are about the FGU UI and the workflow itself.
Many of us current or experienced users do not like or care for the changes or even need them.
TBH, I was content with FG Classic and had been adapting to all the changes for over the many months since the non-beta Unity Edition had been released.
The original FGU Kick Starter had mentioned and promised updates, refinements, and modernization.
And, now that we are starting to see these, we no longer care or want this?
This non-beta FGU version is just over a year old now, so it is relatively new in the scheme of things...
I don't think the sidebar was just an arbitrary amount of work, thought, or beta-testing, at least not to just make such a change for the sake of it.
If change is not in your favor or triggers anyone this much, you will find similar 'drastic' or superfluous changes to other platforms regardless of where you might go or end up.
Give it some time and such, and maybe they will make it more adjustable or have the ability to change the order? But, again, that's progress and more changes...
I made a video regarding the recent changes. I do not know if you care for any of this, or if this will even help you. https://youtu.be/Mz-gYYB67vY
Growing pains is all this is to be fair. If you are a DnD5e user, just wait until DnD5e changes to 5.5, do you think there will be a mass exodus over the proposed ruleset changes? It will be interesting to see.

On the contrary, Smiteworks could have opted or attempted to recreate a different FGU platform on their own, a newer version with a lower public show of their design progress, and we'd have much less community input on how the platform evolves and behaves.
They also could have killed a majority of their current user base by force-feeding an imposed UX re-design made more convenient, cheaper for them, and less useable to end users like us. And charged 'again; for the same DLC and such... Like other software updates and revisions do.

[snow1701]

I also like the change. Thanks!

[Laerun]

Hi Fantasy Grounds Team,
I don't want to sound grumbly, but I as a Mongoose Traveller Referee the new icons really don't fit with the Science Fiction theme at all.
Why can't these changes be added as an "opt in" improvement rather than having to use an extension to opt out.
The Mongoose Traveller FG tabletop has generally looked quite amazing, now it just looks kind of ridiculous with swords, potions, and orc icons peering out me.
My suggestion is that the Options Menu should have the ability to toggle different Menu Options on and off.

Hope this feedback is helpful.
Kind regards
Andrew

Post:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?71674-Wtf-!!&p=630911&viewfull=1#post630911
The implication is that the newer side-bar buttons can be themed, this is just the initial release.

[Laerun]

Hi Fantasy Grounds Team,
I don't want to sound grumbly, but I as a Mongoose Traveller Referee the new icons really don't fit with the Science Fiction theme at all.
Why can't these changes be added as an "opt in" improvement rather than having to use an extension to opt out.
The Mongoose Traveller FG tabletop has generally looked quite amazing, now it just looks kind of ridiculous with swords, potions, and orc icons peering out me.
My suggestion is that the Options Menu should have the ability to toggle different Menu Options on and off.

Hope this feedback is helpful.
Kind regards
Andrew


I asked about adjustable or scaling fonts too, long ago. A complete platform rewrite was the initial concern back then. Not sure what will happen going forward, but this is a common concern or ask.

[ddavison]

Hi Fantasy Grounds Team,
I don't want to sound grumbly, but as a Mongoose Traveller Referee the new icons really don't fit with the Science Fiction theme at all.
Why can't these changes be added as an "opt in" improvement rather than having to use an extension to opt out.
The Mongoose Traveller FG tabletop has generally looked quite amazing, now it just looks kind of ridiculous with swords, potions, and orc icons peering out me.
My suggestion is that the Options Menu should have the ability to toggle different Menu Options on and off.

Hope this feedback is helpful.
Kind regards
Andrew

The icons can be swapped out by each ruleset and extension. Be sure to post in the Traveller forums that you would like that and the ruleset dev can take that into consideration.

[jharp]

The menu has always been at the back - well - above the shortcutbar but near enough to the back. Celestians Better Menus works above other frames iirc.

Yes Celestians' Better Menus works great. My reasoning behind the z-order is that if you slide it out of the way (to the right), I then presume a user will use that space for something they care about. Then they want the menu, they slide it back in but it is behind something they care about, so they then need to move that item to use the menu. That seems awkward to me. So if I'm going to write an extension to slide it right and out of the way, I think I need a way to make the z-order above all other windows. I imagine this can be done but haven't found it yet.

Jason

[acadmcdonald]

The icons can be swapped out by each ruleset and extension. Be sure to post in the Traveller forums that you would like that and the ruleset dev can take that into consideration.

Thanks for the feedback. I don't mind the new menu system itself, I just looking forward to having those little d20s and Orc icons removed and replaced with a meaningful 2D and Spaceship. I will be sure to put a request out to the Traveller 2e developers, though I suspect they may already have had a few requests! Keep up the good work.

[djbreaktime]

Take a look at the extension better menus this is the solution.

[djbreaktime]

So for those that don't like the new menus, can you please give me some ideas as to how it might improve. I'm thinking of just having a mod reduce the space used on the screen (both x and y). It already has a scrollbar so it scrolls nicely if you have limited Y. So I thought, why not just give it have the Y it wants. :)

I happen to like the icons but they are easy enough to remove in an extension. Anyways if you have some ideas that you think will help with real estate I'm happy to try to make it happen. I had thought to slight it right but when sliding it back left it won't z-order above other windows so you would need to move stuff out of the way to use it. This didn't seem helpful. Maybe I'm wrong.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jason

Take a look at the extension better menus this is the solution.

[jharp]

Take a look at the extension better menus this is the solution.

Certainly it is one solution. Wasn't the point of my post. Some people want the sidebar but want it smaller or such. Bit of a moot point as i havent found a z-order solution yet.

jason

[Ludd_G]

I'd personally be happy for no change in the z-order, but the option to reduce it to icons only (I'll soon get used to what each icon references), including fitting the top small button group to fit within in that width. Personally I have the categories I use in play on my hot-keys so only very very rarely need to go to the side-bar. So, if for that rare occasion I need to temporarily move the windows floating over the area, it's not a massive deal. Certainly much less of an issue than losing the amount of screen real estate the side-bar uses at the moment.

Cheers,

Simon

[jharp]

I'd personally be happy for no change in the z-order, but the option to reduce it to icons only (I'll soon get used to what each icon references), including fitting the top small button group to fit within in that width. Personally I have the categories I use in play on my hot-keys so only very very rarely need to go to the side-bar. So, if for that rare occasion I need to temporarily move the windows floating over the area, it's not a massive deal. Certainly much less of an issue than losing the amount of screen real estate the side-bar uses at the moment.

Cheers,

Simon

Good to know. I'll work on something that ignores the z-order. Although as has been mentioned the better menu's is a nice alternative.
Jason

[dyoung1978]

I think it de-clutters the sidebar a lot

[Marquis_de_Taigeis]

the new sidebar i think is an improvement, much easier than having to go into other menus to choose buttons to see

[Daleus]

I don't particularly mind the change. Like many though, I was surprised to see it without apparent warning.

I seem to be on the opposite side of the coin though when it comes to text vs. icons. I have difficulty finding things by icon, mostly because the icons are poorly drawn or not represetative for me. I would prefer to have the option for just text. I also miss the option of choosing what appears on the sidebar and in what order. The colour of the new sidebar is pretty lackluster. None of this is game breaking.

The most disappointing part of the change has been the poor communication. I understand the use of betas and the forum channels devoted to them, but to be frank, I have forked out a hunk of cash for this program and I am a game player and a customer, not a beta-tester or programmer. I am at the total mercy of any changes made to FGU, especially the interface.

I know Smiteworks has put a ton of work into FGU because I have put a ton of work into writing stories and creating items and NPCs, encounters and quests, maps and parcels and tables. I see all the bits and pieces and how they work together and while it seems like a shambling mound of a program, it works remarkably well. It's easy to criticize, but in the end it's still the best, most thorough option in my mind.

Finally, everyone who comments should keep uppermost in their minds when they are commenting that Smiteworks has recently lost one of the best communicators many of us have ever encountered. None of us are communicating in top form at the moment.

I remain confident that improvements will continue to roll out across the board and I look forward to seeing what's next.

[ddavison]

We don't expect every one of our customers to participate in our beta testing of changes on the TEST and DEV channel. What we hope for is that enough people will participate that it will be representative of the community at large. Our hope is that there are enough disparate views and opinions represented among the beta community that any glaring oversights on our part will be identified and addressed prior to releasing it to the broader public. As we all know, it's impossible to please everyone with a single design choice. We just hope to get close enough, often enough, that you will enjoy your experience with FGU.

[The High Druid]

We don't expect every one of our customers to participate in our beta testing of changes on the TEST and DEV channel. What we hope for is that enough people will participate that it will be representative of the community at large. Our hope is that there are enough disparate views and opinions represented among the beta community that any glaring oversights on our part will be identified and addressed prior to releasing it to the broader public. As we all know, it's impossible to please everyone with a single design choice. We just hope to get close enough, often enough, that you will enjoy your experience with FGU.

This evening this has come very close to being the thing that makes me drop using FG for D&D5E and switch to Foundry (which I already use for Shadowrun), and that's after advocating on reddit for the last year or so for FG being the better platform for the system.

I've always been one to have all the buttons I might need visible, and now instead of the buttons sitting nicely in the sidebar of the wizard's theme there's just a wall of grey. It's leaning into the 90's Access database feel that Roll20 had (has?) when I was first choosing which to use, and one of the reasons I rejected it and chose FG instead. I can't minimise the character options because I still want the spells button there for the many NPC's that use spells, minimising Library and Player makes very little difference. They are in a very weird order (at least that can be easily fixed?) that isn't alphabetical, but also not grouped; surely if not alpha, then player and character menus should be next to each other and Library and Campaign next to each other. I really hope this can be an optional change, because I neither want the wall of grey down the side of my screen, nor do I want two extra clicks to open and close a menu any time I want to open one of the categories I use all the time.

[Zacchaeus]

Drag the menu options you want to the taskbar and operate them from there and you can minimise the menu and make it just a small wall of gray.

One suggestion.

The new system is a nod to those clamouring for a more intuitive UI. The previous buttons were hidden behind an option in an option. Now they are all available all the time and new users won’t get lost when half the buttons aren’t there and they don’t know where to find them.

Definitely the best option yet, but as has been said above a number of times you can’t please everyone all the time.

[ddavison]

For NPC spells, are you frequently adding new spells or just referencing spells that NPCs already know? If the latter, why not just open them directly from the NPC record?

[The High Druid]

Always adding/changing spells; I almost never throw an NPC at my group without making changes to them and the casters tend to have boring predictable spell lists. Also the quickest way to make a new NPC is to copy an existing one and change the spells, lost count of the number of times I have turned a Drow mage into another wizard.

[LordEntrails]

For NPC spells, are you frequently adding new spells or just referencing spells that NPCs already know? If the latter, why not just open them directly from the NPC record?
For me as DM I like seeing the Spells options so that I can look up PC spells without opening their character sheets. It is quite common that I need to adjudicate a spell effect, and just opening the spell list and searching for the spell is very convenient.

[ddavison]

Always adding/changing spells; I almost never throw an NPC at my group without making changes to them and the casters tend to have boring predictable spell lists. Also the quickest way to make a new NPC is to copy an existing one and change the spells, lost count of the number of times I have turned a Drow mage into another wizard.

This is a separate topic, but removing the NPC spells and then editing the Spellcasting or Innate Spells will automatically do the lookup for you and apply it to the NPC record with the correct DC or attack string.

[The High Druid]

This is a separate topic, but removing the NPC spells and then editing the Spellcasting or Innate Spells will automatically do the lookup for you and apply it to the NPC record with the correct DC or attack string.

This is no help unless you have all spells memorised by class, school, and level. And, as LordEntrails says, the spell window is often the quickest/easiest way to find a player spell with the search bar.


Drag the menu options you want to the taskbar

They are all used up with reference manual links, map links, and story links. I'd likely have to use side the menu more if I did this!

[ddavison]

This is no help unless you have all spells memorised by class, school, and level. And, as LordEntrails says, the spell window is often the quickest/easiest way to find a player spell with the search bar.


You don’t? :P



They are all used up with reference manual links, map links, and story links. I'd likely have to use side the menu more if I did this!
There are 96 of f them if you use the various combinations of Shift, CTRL, and Alt.

[The High Druid]

There are 96 of them if you use the various combinations of Shift, CTRL, and Alt.

I'm after easy access to things, not having to try to remember if I put the spell window on alt-ctrl-f5 or ctrl-shift-f8. Would end up being about the same as (possibly worse than) expanding and collapsing the menu every time.

shift bar is for important story links
ctrl bar is for characters (inc. NP ones)
alt bar for reference manuals (a for archive)

main bar gets used for hot-swapping current most important links, previous-current-next level in the dungeon, stuff like that.

[Jiminimonka]

I'm after easy access to things, not having to try to remember if I put the spell window on alt-ctrl-f5 or ctrl-shift-f8. Would end up being about the same as (possibly worse than) expanding and collapsing the menu every time.

shift bar is for important story links
ctrl bar is for characters (inc. NP ones)
alt bar for reference manuals (a for archive)

main bar gets used for hot-swapping current most important links, previous-current-next level in the dungeon, stuff like that.

Stick em on the storybar at slot 12. No way you have 12 important story entries you can't navigate throughout the story windows with in a single session.

[LordEntrails]

Or make CTRL-ALT all the sidebar links you are interested in.

Look, I wish the sidebar was more customizable too. I get it that everything needs to be shown by default for new users, and I would love if I could customize the sidebar by re-grouping, hiding, and maybe even only showing the icons. But I'm not upset or worried about it. It's just not important enough for me to let if affect my good mood. I know in time it will get even better, maybe through an extension or not. Maybe I'll even try my hand at an extension, been too long since I've done any code, it's rewarding.

[ddavison]

We could look at what it would take to make it customizable in the future. Our concern would be that it might add back in additional complexity that we were actively trying to eliminate.

It might be possible that this is something an extension dev could build.

[The High Druid]

We could look at what it would take to make it customizable in the future. Our concern would be that it might add back in additional complexity that we were actively trying to eliminate.

It might be possible that this is something an extension dev could build.

Almost anything would be better than this:

50612

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

But why is this side menu bad? He doesn't have the problem of having to keep arranging fonts or arts like the old ones, he no longer needs to look for buttons or better how to activate what they want, either accessing the options or formerly through the library, then having all the buttons on the side tab with a menu that expands or decreases, I would just take out the representative icons and leave only the texts.

[acadmcdonald]

I think just a small amount of customisation would be beneficial for those who are happy to choose from a setup menu. The rulesets will eventually customise the icons, but it would be nice for the GM to be able to customise which headings show up on the submenus (as before) so that it is possible to have all the submenus open and not have such a long menu at the side.

[Jiminimonka]

Always adding/changing spells; I almost never throw an NPC at my group without making changes to them and the casters tend to have boring predictable spell lists. Also the quickest way to make a new NPC is to copy an existing one and change the spells, lost count of the number of times I have turned a Drow mage into another wizard.

NPCs are copied from the source material. The spell lists are also. Also, totally not related to this thread about the side menu improvements.

[mac40k]

After the switch to text labels, it wasn't necessary to pick and choose which items appeared in the list and you could have all of them visible all the time. They maintained the old groupings however and stuck them in the options menu. Adding the icons expands the screen real estate needed and causes more work for setting devs who have to modify it to be more appropriate, while not really adding anything for users. The loss of the ability to specify the order of the lists is annoying as well. They could have simply changed the old setup to have "display all" as the default. That way new users wouldn't have to know to go into options, but the functionality would be there for people to alter the order or filter the lists to their liking if they wanted to. I suppose on a really small screen with the UI scale set high it might have been an issue, but they barely took up just over half the vertical dimension on my setup with all buttons displayed. Otherwise, I can't explain the need for collapsing the lists. But the groupings currently provided are almost worse than no groupings at all. It would make more sense to have the list be scrollable if the entire list wouldn't fit on the user's screen. Just replace the side menu with a window that can be resized and closed like everything else keyed from a button in the top right grouping.

[Zacchaeus]

Again, each to their own but seriously the groupings don't make sense?

If I'm DMin a game I open campaign and I have every button I need in nice alphabetical order; if I'm a player playing in a game I probably don't need any buttons at all but it I do they're all in Player; If I'm creating a character all the buttons I need are in character; if I'm prepping I can have everything open that I need. I mean what else could you really want in terms of functionality.

[The High Druid]

NPCs are copied from the source material. The spell lists are also. Also, totally not related to this thread about the side menu improvements.

It matters because you need to have the entire character section expanded to just see spells. The reason for needing spells visible was already explained above.


But why is this side menu bad? He doesn't have the problem of having to keep arranging fonts or arts like the old ones, he no longer needs to look for buttons or better how to activate what they want, either accessing the options or formerly through the library, then having all the buttons on the side tab with a menu that expands or decreases, I would just take out the representative icons and leave only the texts.

Because it's either a wall of grey, or constantly needs expanding and collapsing. The buttons look like they've been dredged up from an old copy of Windows 3.11. The entire character section needs to be open even if you only want spells visible (NPC's also use spells). It takes up more horizontal space than the old side menu, and FG already suffers for lack of options for windows management or using additional monitors . . .

[Jiminimonka]

It matters because you need to have the entire character section expanded to just see spells. The reason for needing spells visible was already explained above.



Because it's either a wall of grey, or constantly needs expanding and collapsing. The buttons look like they've been dredged up from an old copy of Windows 3.11. The entire character section needs to be open even if you only want spells visible (NPC's also use spells). It takes up more horizontal space than the old side menu, and FG already suffers for lack of options for windows management or using additional monitors . . .

the Entire 5 character section options...

I'm ducking out of this nonsense thread.

[mac40k]

Again, each to their own but seriously the groupings don't make sense?

If I'm DMin a game I open campaign and I have every button I need in nice alphabetical order; if I'm a player playing in a game I probably don't need any buttons at all but it I do they're all in Player; If I'm creating a character all the buttons I need are in character; if I'm prepping I can have everything open that I need. I mean what else could you really want in terms of functionality.

I suppose it depends on what ruleset you are playing. For Savage Worlds, a player needs access to many of the items in Character whenever they get an Advance. Won't need Races after chargen and rarely need Hindrances after that, but need everything else, plus they need Items, Vehicles, and Tables from the Campaign list, but nothing else from there. I used to be able to tell my players how to access the list from the options and guide them through setting up the complete list of things they needed access to, including a recommended order and show them a screen shot. Of course they were free to customize things however they liked, but at least I showed them how to do it.

As a GM I also need access to things from every section. In the campaign list we have Abilities, which are only needed when creating new creature types from scratch and stock NPCs already have reference links to the appropriate entries from this list. I have no need of Quests and rarely use Parcels. While it is true that most of the Character items I normally only need when creating NPCs, again, since the entire list fits on the screen since the switch to text labels, I'm now deprived of the ability to sort them as I prefer, remove the ones that I don't need, and have them forced into groupings that don't add value to me. Adding the collapsible headers just ends up taking up more screen space. Being able to collapse the Characters section during play doesn't offer any real benefit either.

[SilentRuin]

the Entire 5 character section options...

I'm ducking out of this nonsense thread.

It's the venting thread. Let the pressure escape ;)

[damned]

It matters because you need to have the entire character section expanded to just see spells. The reason for needing spells visible was already explained above.

Dare I point out again that you can have the spells load from the Hot Key Bar (of which there are many)? Despite you not wanting to do this for reasons it does make your (oft repeated) statement less compelling.

[Kelrugem]

Dare I point out again that you can have the spells load from the Hot Key Bar (of which there are many)? Despite you not wanting to do this for reasons it does make your (oft repeated) statement less compelling.

If I recall correctly, this was already mentioned, and The High Druid uses the hotkeys already for other things :) (so, we run in circles here already :) )

I personally like the new sidebar but I can understand the argument for a bit customization. And yes, it sounds nice to have kept the old setting in the options (about which buttons to show) but with the new style and always initially showing every button to avoid the problem with confused new users. However, then still more maintenance needed :) We will see what the future will bring, but the current version is for me personally the best version right now

[Mysteria_Sdrassa]

personally, the new layout is all fine and good, the drop downs save a lot of space etc, what I don't like is the plain jane look of them, especialy when using one of the fancier themes like "Dungeon" all the windows open with this nice sorta woodwork with artsy corners and filagree and little skulls as close buttons... the sidebar buttons used to match this and now they just clash.. just my 2 cents