Sidebar width....?

[Rainbird]

Just downloaded the update - has the side bar increased in width or is it just me?

Rainbird

[superteddy57]

The width has increased to compensate for the new icons

[Rainbird]

OK, ta - Is there an option to keep the previous one? Screen real-estate being an issue on FG.... and every pixel counts.

[Moon Wizard]

There is not. It was a trade off between improving the sidebar experience and real estate. While the size increased somewhat, it was kept minimal.

Regards,
JPG

[Rainbird]

Well Smiteworks got that wrong - it looks 'pretty' but is harder to play- sigh. And what's a 'side bar experience' when it's at home?

Players could get themes if they wanted to change the sidebar...Oh well

[Zarestia]

Players could get themes if they wanted to change the sidebar...Oh well

What? Enlighten me.

Maybe a toggle of the icons could be a compromise.

[Rainbird]

Yes - that would help.

May be you could enlighten me with a reason (other that 'side bar experience' - whatever that is) why it was changed....

[Zarestia]

May be you could enlighten me with a reason (other that 'side bar experience' - whatever that is) why it was changed....

I'm not a dev, just a user. I suscpect because the sidebar implementation before was horrible for new users because most sidebar was not visible from the get go.
You posted something about players being able to use themes which is not possible, that's why I asked how that was possible. Only the GM can "force" extensions/themes down a users throat ;)

[damned]

The new sidebar takes up less room as you can minimise almost everything when not using it.
Its more pleasing to look at.
All buttons are always available - less new user confusion when they cannot find data types.

[Valyar]

All buttons are always available - less new user confusion when they cannot find data types.

This :)

[Jiminimonka]

The new sidebar takes up less room as you can minimise almost everything when not using it.
Its more pleasing to look at.
All buttons are always available - less new user confusion when they cannot find data types.

Yeah. New user (and sometimes not new users) get confused about the sidebarmenu. Now that's gone. Next we need the modules the DM allows the players to be auto loaded instead of having to ask players to load then at first session.

[Metlore]

I had some friends that initially complained about the size and it ended up being their UI scale. Has everyone experimented with the scaling to see if it helps?

[Nebs]

The option to hide the text next to the icons would help with horizontal space tremendously.

[Dividedsoul]

Having everything present all the time in a collapsed menu is horrible. The display and UI were more customizable on the previous version. Yes, the quick access bar can be used as a replacement but this also has limitations. Taking away options and choice is by far the worst move any company makes when "improving" a product.

[Jiminimonka]

Having everything present all the time in a collapsed menu is horrible. The display and UI were more customizable on the previous version. Yes, the quick access bar can be used as a replacement but this also has limitations. Taking away options and choice is by far the worst move any company makes when "improving" a product.

Sorry, that makes no sense. The sidebar is better now and easier for new users to find various options without having to be told to mess about in options. Its slightly wider because of the icons with the text.

[Dividedsoul]

Sorry, that makes no sense. The sidebar is better now and easier for new users to find various options without having to be told to mess about in options. Its slightly wider because of the icons with the text.

Easier on "new users" certainly it is. But worse for a DM. Now I have to have the player buttons and other items that I do not need and cannot remove in my screen space. Perhaps its personal, but they removed choice and replaced it with a feature I do not need but am stuck with mid-game.

[Jiminimonka]

Easier on "new users" certainly it is. But worse for a DM. Now I have to have the player buttons and other items that I do not need and cannot remove in my screen space. Perhaps its personal, but they removed choice and replaced it with a feature I do not need but am stuck with mid-game.

But the margin of the menu remains with or without the player buttons or any other buttons and always has.

[LordEntrails]

This discussion just goes to show everyone, that User Interface is something that is an art, and not a science. Their is a broad spectrum of wat people expect and what they think is best or preferred. Everybody should keep in mind that this topic is all about opinions, and all we can each do is state our own opinions.

[Dividedsoul]

This discussion just goes to show everyone, that User Interface is something that is an art, and not a science. Their is a broad spectrum of wat people expect and what they think is best or preferred. Everybody should keep in mind that this topic is all about opinions, and all we can each do is state our own opinions.

You have a very good point!

[The High Druid]

This discussion just goes to show everyone, that User Interface is something that is an art, and not a science. Their is a broad spectrum of wat people expect and what they think is best or preferred. Everybody should keep in mind that this topic is all about opinions, and all we can each do is state our own opinions.

And this is why making it an optional change would be a much better solution. Use it if you like it. Don't if you don't.

[Zacchaeus]

Having options means lots more code to maintain and hundreds more icons for themes . Doesn’t really make any sense to have sidebar options.

[damned]

And this is why making it an optional change would be a much better solution. Use it if you like it. Don't if you don't.

Optional changes significantly increase the maintenance overhead. I'm sure an extension could be written to adjust the behaviour.

[The High Druid]

Having options means lots more code to maintain and hundreds more icons for themes . Doesn’t really make any sense to have sidebar options.

When the whole point of the software is to have an environment set up to play your game of choice, baulking at a couple of options for the menu system just seems ridiculous.


Optional changes significantly increase the maintenance overhead. I'm sure an extension could be written to adjust the behaviour.

I think Silent Ruin might have something appropriate to say here about relying on an extension for a core function of the software . . .

[damned]

I think Silent Ruin might have something appropriate to say here about relying on an extension for a core function of the software . . .

Core Function?
Editing the entries on the menu is not on my list of core functions.
We all use things differently...

[The High Druid]

The sidebar menus are the core function.

[Primo]

This discussion just goes to show everyone, that User Interface is something that is an art, and not a science. Their is a broad spectrum of wat people expect and what they think is best or preferred. Everybody should keep in mind that this topic is all about opinions, and all we can each do is state our own opinions.

art is about expression and feelings, UI is about research and objective, as any kind of design. It is a tool of user experience.

design is not art

[Moon Wizard]

As people mentioned, having options increases technical design cost and ongoing maintenance cost.

That said, I like the general idea of an icon only sidebar display option, since I think it goes towards maximizing screen real estate for small screens as well as power users.

My main concern is that it requires figuring out new display elements (which I always get yelled at by both content developers and users for any change) as well as a bunch of considerations around how existing themes are affected. Some random thoughts on display elements to figure out:

* General
** Does the sidebar have it's own extra button to maximize/minimize; or is it a UI option buried in Options panel?

* Record Types
** Are tooltips and icons sufficient for collapsed view?

* Categories
** How to display the category headers in a way that makes sense to power users when minimized
** Currently, they are collapse/expand arrows with full text
** Just the drop down arrows? With one letter? Another set of icons?
** New icons create extra design work for all themes/rulesets and make the space wider by the size of the collapse/expand
** Collapse/expand required for easiest visual reference for categories, since not all themes use different graphics for category vs. campaign record buttons.

* How to display tools at the top right?
** Currently, they wrap, so that this area is not too large.
** If we go to icons only, then this would become a single column of buttons that is very tall (8-12 items) that is not collapsible.
** We had some thought of eventually making this a collapsible "Tool" category, so that these buttons could be hidden too.
** We also had some thought of making these tools like the other buttons in the sidebar with icon/text for easier theming long-term.
** If we migrate to collapsible section with icon/text, then any solution on categories from above and any icon-only features just work here.
** If we don't migrate to icon/text, I believe that we will still need to make Tools collapsible, since it would be fairly obtrusive otherwise.

Now, even though I'm thinking about it and working through the UI/workflow considerations, this does not mean that anything like this is scheduled. Oftentimes, it's the nailing down the specifics of how things would look/work in order to understand the magnitude of development needed, and then prioritize and schedule accordingly.

Regards,
JPG

[LordEntrails]

art is about expression and feelings, UI is about research and objective, as any kind of design. It is a tool of user experience.

design is not art
I guess it depends on your definition of art and science. To me, science means that in general their is one solution to a theorem. Art means their is more than one solution. Having been an engineer heavily involved in design for almost 30 years, t me User Interfaces will always be an art simple because their is no one solution that can be scientifically proven to always be the answer. Their may be a single solution that is best for one person at a given point in time, or even for a set of people under a set of conditions. But for something like FG that is used by many people under many use cases and with many expectations, their will no be one solution that is best for everyone in ever use case.

It some ways it's like asking a medical doctor about patient care and treatment. Yes, the practice of medicine is based on science, but the medical community still considers it an art.

[LordEntrails]

I hope this was an invitation for feedback;


* General
** Does the sidebar have it's own extra button to maximize/minimize; or is it a UI option buried in Options panel?

Could be either for me. Or preferable a context sensitive right mouse option to hide individual text or button entries and an option to Show All buttons to revert all changes.



* Record Types
** Are tooltips and icons sufficient for collapsed view?
Yes



* Categories
** How to display the category headers in a way that makes sense to power users when minimized
Don't need them. I think they look nice, but as a power user I find them... superfluous.


** Currently, they are collapse/expand arrows with full text
** Just the drop down arrows? With one letter? Another set of icons?
Just the arrow would be sufficient for me, but you will still probably have extra width to use up, so might as well use it.
Could also consider collapsing the height to just a bar. Don't forget the right mouse sensitive suggestion above, this could be used for restoring here too.


** New icons create extra design work for all themes/rulesets and make the space wider by the size of the collapse/expand
True, but I don't think this is too much of an ask for a theme. But it also might be possible to allow the architecture to forgo buttons if they are not present, or for the theme to hide/ignore them and just go with text. Also keep in mind, icons are good for bypassing the needs to localize text for different languages. If that's a goal you want to worry about.


** Collapse/expand required for easiest visual reference for categories, since not all themes use different graphics for category vs. campaign record buttons.
Not following, so no input here.


* How to display tools at the top right?
** Currently, they wrap, so that this area is not too large.
IMO this area needs some work. AT my screen resolution and scale, these icons are smaller in width than the sidebar buttons so their is wasted space. I could see these becoming just another category for the sidebar buttons (Options?) and being handled the same as those with ability to customize, collapse, hide, etc (but default to all shown)


** If we go to icons only, then this would become a single column of buttons that is very tall (8-12 items) that is not collapsible.
Perhaps, as above, but if they remain icons only, why not wrap in 2 or even 3 columns (see comment above about excess space)

** We had some thought of eventually making this a collapsible "Tool" category, so that these buttons could be hidden too.
** We also had some thought of making these tools like the other buttons in the sidebar with icon/text for easier theming long-term.
** If we migrate to collapsible section with icon/text, then any solution on categories from above and any icon-only features just work here.
Yes! See above, I came to that thought too :)


** If we don't migrate to icon/text, I believe that we will still need to make Tools collapsible, since it would be fairly obtrusive otherwise.
True. I think making them the same as the other sidebar items, but just in their own category is the best approach. Though a change now, makes maintenance and development of new themes easier/consistent.


Now, even though I'm thinking about it and working through the UI/workflow considerations, this does not mean that anything like this is scheduled. Oftentimes, it's the nailing down the specifics of how things would look/work in order to understand the magnitude of development needed, and then prioritize and schedule accordingly.

Regards,
JPG
I completely understand!

[Ecks]

Overall, I like the new sidebar changes and I think they definitely address a few pain points with the old UI (menu ordering, hidden menus, etc). Personally, I'm not too concerned with the increased width, though I could see how it might be concerning on smaller screens. I do like the idea of migrating the various tool buttons at the top of the sidebar to the new icon/text style - I think this would greatly improve usability for new users (and reduce how many times the GM has to describe what the Combat Tracker button looks like and where to find it).



** Does the sidebar have it's own extra button to maximize/minimize; or is it a UI option buried in Options panel?

I'd prefer a small button to minimize/maximize the sidebar, something like this: Sidebar.jpg (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50561). This allows minimizing/maximizing the sidebar to see the full names of each button easily, without having to go into the Options panel.


** How to display the category headers in a way that makes sense to power users when minimized

I'd just leave it as arrows, maybe with a mouse over tool-tip. If it's easy to minimize/maximize the sidebar then users can check the category names by simply maximizing the sidebar momentarily.


* How to display tools at the top right?

I'd vote for migrating these buttons to the new icon/text style and moving them into existing and/or new categories, with the goal being to group commonly used items together to reduce the number of categories that need to be kept expanded. For example, I personally wouldn't want the Options and Colors menus (which I rarely open) in the same category as Combat Tracker and Party Sheet (which I open often). This is pretty subjective though and might be tough to nail down the "right" categories for most people. Which sidebar items are commonly used will probably be different between GM, player, and across rulesets as well.

One thought is:

Combat Tracker to the top of the sidebar (outside of any category - example (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50560)). I would guess this is the most commonly used item for both GM and players (at least for 5E ruleset), so it potentially warrants always being visible. Otherwise, maybe the Player category.
Party Sheet to the existing Player category or into a new Tools category

Party Sheet is maybe important enough to get the same treatment as Combat Tracker. I think it makes more sense in the Player category over being grouped with Modifiers/Effects.

Modifiers and Effects moved to a new Tools category
Calendar moved to either Campaign or Player category
Options and Colors moved to either a new Tools category (with Modifiers/Effects) or split off into a new Settings category

A potential enhancement for down the road might be to add a favorites/pinned section to the sidebar (e.g. below Combat Tracker in the previous example), so users could pin individual sections to the top of the sidebar and then leave all sections collapsed beneath it. This would add a copy of the button to the pinned area, leaving the actual section menus unchanged, so you could always find a sidebar item in it's normal location regardless of what is pinned.