Moon you are missing the point [Archive]

Trenloe

November 30th, 2021, 23:15

I find this sort of action more than a little rude. Not only do you close a thread but you do so with such a dismissive tone. I know you know the problem is real as are the other problems we discussed in private. Please reopen the thread.
I don't agree with closing the thread, but I agree with the sentiment of Moon's post. As a forum moderator I made a post in that thread (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?63953-Memory-hole-in-chat-output&p=628883&viewfull=1#post628883) because it was devolving into a number of users blaming their performance issues on something that was only being reproduced by sending 10,000 entries to the chat window every minute (be it dice rolls, commas or whatever) - not really a true representation of most FG games. The data in that thread is of value without it being hijacked by other people making comments about their individual performance issues, none of which I could see were proved to be directly related to the main data in that thread.

Here's a few user comments from that thread (these are to illustrate the different issues people are having/could be having):

Have you done any tests without constant dice rolling or chat input? I noticed even in my development campaign (for making custom modules) it started to get super slow. I had it open for maybe 8 hours and it got really laggy by the 5th or 6th hour. And of course I was not doing much rolling at all, mostly just entering data.
This pretty much proves that this user's issue is not related to the chat window using excessive memory...

I would argue most people are in fact impacted by this. I know me and all 5 of my players are every week when we play.
The issue could be anything - like the previous quote, for example. But it could literally be anything - it needs more info (logged in its own thread) to aid in trying to track down this specific user's issue.

Anyway, just adding one more voice that I'm seeing FGU performance problems, they are negatively impacting the gaming experience for me and my players, and it is constantly making me reevaluate whether or not I should make the switch to another VTT.
So, now we have a user who is talking about moving to another VTT due to "FGU performance problems", but I only see posts from this user relating to a potential auto save issue back in April - no further posts about their issues. This is what I'm trying to avoid, and why I posted in the thread in question - user's assuming that an edge test case is what is causing them issues, and now (because SmiteWorks aren't jumping all over this edge test case) they get disgruntled and talk about leaving FG.

I know people are frustrated when they encounter performance issues, and we know they exist. If you have a performance issue - please log it as a new thread and provide any information requested to help identify the issue/s. There are so many different things that could impact an FG group's performance that piggy-backing onto someone else's thread is not the best way to get a fix - it dilutes the original scope of the thread and can also cause confusion all round with potentially different issues being discussed/troubleshooted in the same thread.

We all want to see FGU improve, and as a community moderator I ask you to please help to identify specific issues by communicating them in the most efficient and confusion free way - use your own thread to deal with your specific issues.

EDIT: In addition, as mentioned by the SmiteWorks president in the thread in question: "We tend to prioritize development based on the ease of identifying and fixing the issue, the amount of people it affects, the severity of the effect, marketability, and a few more things." So please keep this in mind if you don't see any short term, or even medium term, movement for your issue. SmiteWorks will keep the issue and data you provided in mind, but it might take them some time to schedule looking into it in their busy development schedule.

jharp

November 30th, 2021, 23:32

I simply wish to see the original thread reopened. If real life example is needed I'm sure I can provide it and show a memory leak with only a little normal use.

Jason

Weissrolf

November 30th, 2021, 23:34

Saving db.xml is the turning point, but (seemingly) only when FGU is busy ... while saving the database file (more testing needed by developers themselves). If the file is saved during a pause then memory management seems to work properly.
If the file is saved while the dice are rolled then memory management breaks down and usage starts climbing in a rather steep curve (considering that we only roll dice).
U: Look mum, I found a correlation between auto-save and memory management breaking through the roof.

S: Well boy, we got other priorities, like painting that wall in another color. Can't look at no broken roofs while watching the paint dry.

U: Uh, my bad, sorry to disturb you. I'm off to play with the big boys now. Bye bye.

Trenloe

November 30th, 2021, 23:35

I simply wish to see the original thread reopened.
I know you think Moon's actions were rude. If all you want is the thread reopening, and not a discussion about it, may I suggest that you PM Moon Wizard directly and not post your singular request in a public forum?

jharp

November 30th, 2021, 23:37

I've never had a PM to moon be returned so....

Trenloe

November 30th, 2021, 23:39

I've never had a PM to moon be returned so....
Sorry, what you said in post #1 suggested you did communicate with him in private: "I know you know the problem is real as are the other problems we discussed in private."

jharp

November 30th, 2021, 23:42

Yes I could email him I guess.

Sterno

November 30th, 2021, 23:42

So, now we have a user who is talking about moving to another VTT due to "FGU performance problems", but I only see posts from this user relating to a potential auto save issue back in April - no further posts about their issues. This is what I'm trying to avoid, and why I posted in the thread in question - user's assuming that an edge test case is what is causing them issues, and now (because SmiteWorks aren't jumping all over this edge test case) they get disgruntled and talk about leaving FG.

If you're implying reading Weissrolf's post or other people mentioning performance problems somehow conjured up performance problems ideas in my head and got me thinking negatively about the application, that'd be wrong. And to be clear, that isn't the sole factor that makes me think of switching. But it's a contributor.

Just because I haven't made a bunch of "me too!" posts on other performance issues doesn't mean I'm not having them too. Performance problems are also notoriously hard to give reproduceable steps for... the reason I posted the auto-save one was because I did have seemingly reproduceable steps. "Get my 5 players to connect and play a game for a few hours" isn't a really set of reproducible steps I can give, but that's sort of what needs to happen for a lot of these.

Look a little deeper in my comment history and you'll see I had quite a few comments when lighting was in beta and I was testing it out. I typically shy away from "me too" posts because they just add noise. I only did it in this case because it seems like in thread after thread of these that I've read over the last year, Weissrolf ends up getting ganged up on and shouted down (usually by the same handful of people). Dude's out there trying to find out where performance issues are coming from, and maybe he's finding real problems, or maybe only corner case problems, but in a year of using FGU, I can't say my performance issues have really gotten any better overall (other than autosave is faster now... sometimes), so I'm happy for his efforts. The other reason I spoke up, as I described in my post, is that I think "Oh, that test case is an edge case that doesn't really happen, so it doesn't reflect reality!" is a bad way of looking at things. As mentioned, performance issues can be very difficulty to reproduce over a short time frame without hours of gameplay going on first. He's trying to shortcut that testing process by slamming it with a lot of data.

The response that usually ends up coming down is "it's not a priority" or "use smaller maps" or "break up your modules into pieces". It's not super satisfying. Though again, as I said before, I understand the business realities. It can be hard as a user, from the outside perspective though, to understand if SW's attitude is "performance is good enough as it is for most users... just use these workarounds if you have problems" or if it's "We are actively working on improving performance and it is a priority for us". The attitude that's coming across is definitely the former, whether or not that's reality. We hear a lot of "that isn't worth looking into" and probably could do with hearing it followed by "...but here's some specific things we are doing to improve overall performance".

If Moon and ddavidson say they don't think the issue is there and it's not worth their time, that's not the response I had a problem with in my other post. That's their call to make. It was all the other non-SW users piping in shouting the same thing, and that's why I commented. I understand it took focus away from just the technical aspects of the bug by making it more conversational, but at the same time, all the non-SW people telling Weissrolf to relax and it's no big deal had that same derailing effect, but they didn't get called out. Just the "me too" posts. I understand Weissrolf's posts and attitude rub a few people raw, but reading all those people reacting to him in every performance thread he has is starting to rub me raw.

Weissrolf

November 30th, 2021, 23:47

*smirks*

Yes, that is the reality, no one but me is affected by FGU's memory shenanigans. Coming up with easy to reproduce test scenarios is the real issue here. And me following up a whole year after my last post is unnecessarily pushy. I understand.

Trenloe

November 30th, 2021, 23:51

If you're implying reading Weissrolf's post or other people mentioning performance problems somehow conjured up performance problems ideas in my head and got me thinking negatively about the application, that'd be wrong.

Just because I haven't made a bunch of "me too!" posts on other performance issues doesn't mean I'm not having them too...
I'm not saying any of that. I specifically didn't mention the usernames of the quotes I was using as I was quoting the posts from that thread purely as an example of how one issue is not necessarily another person's issue and to ask people to post their issues in their own thread. I thought I was pretty clear about that, and also clear that I know there are issues and that people aren't conjuring them up.

I hope I made my point about how to be the most efficient in reporting and trying to identify issues.

Weissrolf

November 30th, 2021, 23:57

Sterno

December 1st, 2021, 00:03

I'm not saying any of that. I specifically didn't mention the usernames of the quotes I was using as I was quoting the posts from that thread purely as an example of how one issue is not necessarily another person's issue and to ask people to post their issues in their own thread. I thought I was pretty clear about that, and also clear that I know there are issues and that people aren't conjuring them up.

I hope I made my point about how to be the most efficient in reporting and trying to identify issues.

Well, sure, but my post wasn't really about my specific performance issues. Starting a new thread would have made no sense, and I don't have any reproducible steps beyond "play for a while" anyway. I wasn't trying to hone in and say "come look at mine too". It was mostly "I'm tired of seeing all these performance posts by Weissrolf shouted down".

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 00:11

I can't tell anyone in this thread why it happens, but my FGU sessions degrade and behave exactly like a memory leak would. Completely restarting FGU clears up the issue temporarily until the leak gets out of control again.

Normal use. None of us have the time or patience to be 'causing' problems.

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 00:16

It is my conviction that various performance and stability problems reported by different users are based on fundamental design flaws and unwillingness to dive deep into the ugly parts of the code-base. This is substantiated by how I observe and experience these issues to be handled and my general impression of Smitework mainly working for themselves and seeing paying customers mostly only as "benefiting" third party.

Obviously this is a personal point of view.

I completely agree with you.

There are legitimate performance issues with FGU that get ignored and when you bring them up on the forums or in Discord the fanboys try to beat you in to submission or ask for the exact details causing the problem. I don't know what the problem is, that's why I'm reporting it. If I knew, I could take measures to fix it myself.

It's absolutely retarded. It's like taking a car to a mechanic him telling you nothing can be done unless you know exactly what the problem is. That's your job. Figure it out.

Trenloe

December 1st, 2021, 00:26

I hope I made my point about how to be the most efficient in reporting and trying to identify issues.
Obviously not, sigh...

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 00:32

Obviously not, sigh...

If you're referring to my post; I'm not making a new thread. After seeing how others have been/are treated and the way I have been treated in Discord, I have absolutely no faith that my post will accomplish anything but give another man an opportunity to talk to me like a child.

That's not something I'm in the habit of doing.

Sterno

December 1st, 2021, 00:45

Obviously not, sigh...

Serious question… what would you like him to post? He says he doesn’t know what causes it and it’s something that occurs over time. What useful action would actually be taken from that info?

Trenloe

December 1st, 2021, 00:56

Serious question… what would you like him to post? He says he doesn’t know what causes it and it’s something that occurs over time. What useful action would actually be taken from that info?
There are a number of things that have been identified that help with performance issues. So if a user is experiencing slowdown, a little bit of information about their campaign (for example: is it using purely module data and maps, or home grown data and imported maps?) How much memory FGU is using when the issue occurs - is that higher than initially, once all of the players have joined and you've opened your first map? And various other items that might come out with a reasonable dialogue. If a specific in game reproducible issue can be found then that's amazing and will help the devs no end in tracking down issues; if not, then hopefully some pointers may help to improve things somewhat. But without an issue being reported and that user being willing to answer a few questions and work with the devs and/or community, not much will happen.

Zarestia

December 1st, 2021, 00:58

Serious question… what would you like him to post? He says he doesn’t know what causes it and it’s something that occurs over time. What useful action would actually be taken from that info?

- Campaign
- Since when is the "degrading" happening?
- What exactly is "degrading"?
- Is it happening every session? Also in maybe other campaigns?

You don't bring your car to repair and tell them: Fix it, it's running bad after driving 100 miles, I don't know what's causing it but you must.

The more information support has, the better support can work, just like corporate life. If you provide no information, support can't help you, that's why several people ask to give as much information as possible.

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 00:59

Serious question… what would you like him to post? He says he doesn’t know what causes it and it’s something that occurs over time. What useful action would actually be taken from that info?

Exactly. I'd probably get both negged and insulted for 'wasting' people's time.

I don't mind being negged (obviously) for speaking my mind, but the tiny bit of information I'm able to provide isn't exactly actionable. At best, it can help support someone else's, more detailed, problem. After reading the thread that spawned this one and comparing those experiences to my own, I'm absolutely convinced that I am also experiencing the chat-memory leak.

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 01:09

There are a number of things that have been identified that help with performance issues. So if a user is experiencing slowdown, a little bit of information about their campaign (for example: is it using purely module data and maps, or home grown data and imported maps?) How much memory FGU is using when the issue occurs - is that higher than initially, once all of the players have joined and you've opened your first map? And various other items that might come out with a reasonable dialogue. If a specific in game reproducible issue can be found then that's amazing and will help the devs no end in tracking down issues; if not, then hopefully some pointers may help to improve things somewhat. But without an issue being reported and that user being willing to answer a few questions and work with the devs and/or community, not much will happen.

See, the problem I have with this line of approach is that I only feel like its goal is to provide just enough relief for my current problem so that I'll go away, but it doesn't actually address the underlying problem.

I don't need any help to jury-rig and duct tape my campaign in to a more playable state. I can easily do that on my own. The issue is that I don't want to and I shouldn't have to. There are very real problems with FG and they're not going away no matter how patronizing and rabid the fanboys are.

Trenloe

December 1st, 2021, 01:11

You don't bring your car to repair and tell them: Fix it, it's running bad after driving 100 miles, I don't know what's causing it but you must.
To expand on this - people in this analogy (FG users) don't bring their car to a mechanic (where the mechanic has access to the car and can test things); they're mentioning their car has performance issues on a public Internet forum and then expecting a bunch of people to work it out without knowing the actual issue and not being able to answer questions, or get some information about the issue or ask the owner to do some testing. It doesn't matter if it "That's your job. Figure it out." if the people trying to help can't get access to details about the issue - and it isn't the job of most of them who are trying to help - if you post in a public channel (forums, Discord, etc.) then most of the people who respond aren't going to be SmiteWorks employees.

I get it, people are frustrated because issue appearing 2-3 hours into a session are hard to track down and there's no magical fix for someone saying "I have performance issues!" What I've been trying to get across is that things won't be fixed if they're not reported, and guidance can't be provided either (which might at least improve things). I'm sorry if some people have had a hard time with questions before - unfortunately that can be a problem with posting on public forums. I would hope that if both the issue reporter and those who respond are reasoned and calm that things will proceed amicably - if you use these forums the moderators will get involved if it oversteps the mark, and you can always report a post if you have reasonable issues with it.

Trenloe

December 1st, 2021, 01:16

After reading the thread that spawned this one and comparing those experiences to my own, I'm absolutely convinced that I am also experiencing the chat-memory leak.
So, you're absolutely convinced that the 10,000 chat entries a minute chat memory leak issue is causing your problems? I'm not ruling anything out, we just need more than anecdotal thoughts and none in-game edge test cases.

If so, please do what I mentioned in the post that you quote in your next post:

How much memory FGU is using when the issue occurs - is that higher than initially, once all of the players have joined and you've opened your first map?

There are very real problems with FG and they're not going away no matter how patronizing and rabid the fanboys are.
And they won't go away unless people report them and be prepared to at least provide some feedback on your campaign, your memory use, etc.. Otherwise, to use your analogy, all you're doing is pinging a mechanic on an Internet forum and saying "fix my car" - no reasonable person can expect a mechanic to do that without information and two-way dialogue.

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 01:21

So, you're absolutely convinced that the 10,000 chat entries a minute chat memory leak issue is causing your problems? I'm not ruling anything out, we just need more than anecdotal thoughts and none in-game edge test cases.

If so, please do what I mentioned in the post that you quote in your next post:

How much memory FGU is using when the issue occurs - is that higher than initially, once all of the players have joined and you've opened your first map?

And they won't go away unless people report them and be prepared to at least provide some feedback on your campaign, your memory use, etc.. Otherwise, to use your analogy, all you're doing is pinging a mechanic on an Internet forum and saying "fix my car" - no reasonable person can expect a mechanic to do that without information and two-way dialogue.

No, I'm not convinced that 10,000 chat entries a minute is causing my leak. In fact, I was waiting for someone to broach that question because it doesn't take that kind of extreme activity to cause the problem (leak). Much like Sterno mentioned in the closed thread, I use a lot of extensions that dump a lot of extra information in to the chat window. It's not 10k a minute, but it's a lot and I have absolutely no doubt that it's the problem.

What I am experiencing is EXACTLY what numerous people in the other thread are experiencing.

As to your bolded question, I can't answer that now, but I will when I can.

Trenloe

December 1st, 2021, 01:32

What I am experiencing is EXACTLY what numerous people in the other thread are experiencing.
The only thing that was common among those posts were slowdown after a few hours of use. There was no root cause or common underlying issue identified - it was all anecdotal comments without any specific evidence to indicate increasing memory use over time as the issue, and as my commentary in post #6 of this thread shows, some of it wasn't related to chat activity either.

As to your bolded question, I can't answer that now, but I will when I can.
Yes, please. That would be most appreciated. And please start a new thread specific to your issue. Thanks.

Moon Wizard

December 1st, 2021, 03:06

@BushViper,

Thank you for making a new thread to specifically report your issue. I responded in that thread about additional information and testing that could be helpful.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?71518-FGU-Memory-Leak&p=628956&viewfull=1#post628956

JPG

Moon Wizard

December 1st, 2021, 03:16

And just to be clear, I closed the other thread specifically to keep people from just jumping into a potentially unrelated thread with random performance comments without providing any information. While some people believe that these reports are all correlated; the timing and symptoms have quite a bit of variety on when they're occurring based on the anecdotal reports, and it's more likely that they are separate issues. Without specific details for each person's situation and data, it's not a very useful discussion.

So, please post any reports in their own threads with as much data on the details as possible about what was going on, whether issues are occurring.

Here's a list of possible questions:
* What does "performance issues" mean in your scenario? (i.e. what exactly is running slow? dice rolls? window opening? mouse cursor? token movement? ...)
* Can you open Windows Task Manager when this is occurring? What are the detailed numbers for the Fantasy Grounds process? What are the numbers when restarting FGU from scratch with the same campaign?
* Have you tried playing without extensions and get the same problems? If so, can you narrow down which extension is causing the issue?
* When the slowdown is occurring, what is the state of the tabletop? (which exact windows are open? what was the flow of play in opening/closing windows? ...)
* Can you recreate the slowdown consistently, or does it just happen after a period of time? (If time related, the table state and usage flow is very important.)

Also, here are some things I would want people to try when a slowdown occurs to help us narrow down the scenario:
* Have one player shutdown FGU completely and restart/connect from scratch. Do they see the same slowdown after rejoining, or only the people that didn't reset?
* Have the GM close all IMAGE windows. Does the GM see the same slowdown after re-opening only the current map? Do the players still see the same slowdown after this test?
* Have the players close all IMAGE windows. Do they see the same slow down after re-opening the single map window in progress?
* Have the GM close all windows. Does the GM see the same slowdown after re-opening only the current map and combat tracker? Do the players still see the same slowdown after this test?
* Have the players close all windows. Do they see the same slow down after re-opening the single map window in progress?
* Does having the GM shut down and restart the session fix the slowdown when the players reconnect?

Regards,
JPG

LordEntrails

December 1st, 2021, 04:30

For those of you on Windows, their is a utility included called Performance Monitor. It is like a the Task Manager, but on steroids. The important part of it is that you can have it automatically create log files. This allows you to record the memory usage over time (and other data sets if you want). This means that the performance logs can be compared to the FGU logs. And that you don't have to write down or record what the memory is at the begin or end of the session.

Weissrolf

December 1st, 2021, 15:45

Smitework is still trying to fix your cars while the reason for traffic jams and crashing is the road being bumpy, partly broken, heavily bottlenecked and full of detours. They are either unwilling or incapable of fixing the road and as the thread title suggests maybe even incapable of even recognizing the potholes while being busy painting the houses on the sides of the road.

If Moon took the effort to read and understand the data presented and ask questions instead of sulkily closing threads left and right then he might have noticed that Smiteworks' main job is to do road construction for their paying customers, instead of telling people to have their cars fixed and extras removed. It's the classical (Steve Jobs TM) "You are holding it wrong" argument, where the company shifts the blame on the customer even for fundamentally broken design.

What we seem to know so far:

- Autosave causes FGU to fall into a broken state, but seemingly only if FGU is busy while an autosave happens. This would need real debugging (console work) to be done by SW for proper analysis. I presented reproducible test cases to do that work, but these were dismissed as unrealistic edge cases.

In practice there may be dozens of autosaves without problems and then there is the one where FGU was too busy to do it properly. This is one possible explanation for the sporadic/hard to reproduce nature of problems experienced by users in practical gaming sessions.

- Once Autosave pushes FGU over the edge memory consumption keeps increasing at a much faster pace compared to normal operation, as memory deallocation seems to be broken then. We don't know yet if other parts of FGU are also affected after the breaking point, but the pure fact that memory keeps being allocated points to FGU maybe having to deal with more and more data than necessary internally. So this is not so much about memory running out, but about data being shoved around.

- From a pure memory usage point of view the ongoing allocation of virtual memory (pagefile) is even more problematic than physical memory usage. By default Windows 10 and 11 allocate a maximum of 4 times the physical memory as virtual memory. So a 4 GB system (minimum FGU specs) only allows a maximum of 16 GB virtual memory for all applications and OS. Once that maximum is hit everything goes down the drain, likely with FGU crashing to the desktop (after some time) and Windows and other applications not working properly anymore unless you wait a long time or just restart.

- Overall FGU uses far too much memory for data objects, be it images or text. It allocates manifold the memory needed for each data object, it's a real memory pig! And again, this may not so much be a problem of free memory being available, but of bloated data having to be processed and even breaking FGU's internal workings. Various of my test cases that caused high memory load usually did not release memory by returning from the game to the lobby, I had to restart the FGU client instead (including the next point).

Data processing related observations:

- If any connected client or the GM paste very large chunks of text into their chat input then their respective FGU client behaves very choppy concerning anything chat window related (including rolls).

Once the pasting client hits Enter to send the text to chat all connected player and GM clients are affected by the same choppiness until they restart their respective client. It is not enough for the "offending" player (original paste) to restart their client.

- Displaying/drawing a list of text data, like PF2 Feats "By Level" sorted list, causes so unbelievably high CPU load that my frame per second drop from several thousands (Vsync off) to below 15. FGU has a surprising hard time processing and displaying text and image data considering that this is its very main objective to begin with.

So even without anything being broken FGU already show various bumps and bottlenecks fulfilling its tasks, but once your car stumbles over a pothole the screws come lose and everything falls more and more apart until you restart the car and maybe even return to an earlier part of the road.

Professionally Smitework has lost my respect quite some time ago and they have not seen any new money from me since February. For the time being I will rather spend my money being a patron to "PDF to Foundry" than buying further modules for FGU. FG will likely still serve me in its original purpose (for me) of handling encounters at f2f table games. But I will start a new online campaign using the other VTT and with gained experience will also try to switch my ongoing campaign over in time. The latter mainly depends on how my players' PCs handle the switch and my wish to get away from the SW community, not so much on features being gained or lost.

jharp

December 1st, 2021, 16:14

My christmas wish is a FGU test build that is instrumented for memory leaks.

Jason

Zacchaeus

December 1st, 2021, 16:40

- Displaying/drawing a list of text data, like PF2 Feats "By Level" sorted list, causes so unbelievably high CPU load that my frame per second drop from several thousands (Vsync off) to below 15. FGU has a surprising hard time processing and displaying text and image data considering that this is its very main objective to begin with.

Is this something that used to happen or still does? I just tested this (since it's a simple thing to test) and before I opened the list by level my memory usage was 1276Mb and after it opened was 1293Mb so a 20Mb or so increase. The operation happened immediately with no slowdown or anything. I've no idea what my framerate was before or after but i didn't see anything which would indicate that it dropped. Do you think this might be dependent on something like Graphics cards or other computer specs? Mine isn't cutting edge or anything so I'd expect to see some kind of similar result to yours or somewhat worse if you have a higher end machine.

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 16:51

Is this something that used to happen or still does? I just tested this (since it's a simple thing to test) and before I opened the list by level my memory usage was 1276Mb and after it opened was 1293Mb so a 20Mb or so increase. The operation happened immediately with no slowdown or anything. I've no idea what my framerate was before or after but i didn't see anything which would indicate that it dropped. Do you think this might be dependent on something like Graphics cards or other computer specs? Mine isn't cutting edge or anything so I'd expect to see some kind of similar result to yours or somewhat worse if you have a higher end machine.

I might be stepping out of my line answering for him, but by the looks of his post (for this particular situation) accessing that file causes a massive spike in CPU (not memory) load that dumpsters his PCs framerate.

I can also reliably reproduce (real-world) situations where my PCs framerate dips to single digits and stays there until I close and restart FG. Obviously, trying to play a game with frames in the 5-20 range is not feasible.

SilentRuin

December 1st, 2021, 17:14

Holy.... I now understand why the thread was closed if this is the "reasoned" approach and commentary it took.

I personally don't have performance issues I've not been able to resolve with extensions and selective map/LOS/Lighting use. I mean that's all relatively new and still undergoing changes as we speak. In fact, Dec. 7 or there abouts is a big update coming.

To me its pretty simple - Problems happen - priorities assigned - developer assigned to one at a time - limited developers.

Customers enraged - spamming of duplicate issues with no real duplicatable process abound...

Yeah. I get it now.

Here is what will happen. FGU team will try to address problems as they come up - likely the ones they can duplicate (nice campaign provided with step by step process showing duplicatable issue) being addressed first as long as it does not require some horrific rewrite or some technical time consuming thing that would put a number of other priorities off the table. So they will proceed as they can.

Good users will provide duplicatable stuff that does not get buried in some spam thread.

Others will scream - threaten to leave - and generally say "MY ISSUE IS THE IMPORTANT ONE". I definitely relate to that. As I to feel I'm the center of the universe.

Still, I get why they can't have threads just go on and on and on about the same thing with no additional substance.

This thread - by example - has cleared up what was going on for me. Thanks.

Weissrolf

December 1st, 2021, 17:32

Is this something that used to happen or still does?
It always happened, still does and is known to Smiteworks and Trenloe. One of FGU's workarounds (detours) is to break such simple text lists into multiple pages to somewhat get around the CPU bottleneck. It is a classic example of data being processed in the least effective way possible. Ok for the first few releases to get things going, but not ok to not be revisited for months and years when it keeps failing on such a fundamental level.

It has nothing to do with memory size (despite FGU using too much RAM for simple text), nothing to do with the GPU (it's idle due to not being served data) and everything to do with how lists are handled by FGU's CPU thread. It's a pure expression of failed software design which the developers refuse or fail to improve. This PC is a modern car, but the road is more of an acre.

Twenty (20!) lines of text bring one of the most modern PCs down to its knees while other software does not even trip over millions of lines of text.

https://i.imgur.com/jLBuQk2.gif

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 17:38

It always happened, still does and is known to Smiteworks and Trenloe. One of FGU's workarounds (detours) is to break such simple text lists into multiple pages to somewhat get around the CPU bottleneck. It is a classic example of data being processed in the least effective way possible. Ok for the first few releases to get things going, but not ok to not be revisited for months and years when it keeps failing on such a fundamental level.

It has nothing to do with memory size (despite FGU using too much RAM for simple text), nothing to do with the GPU (it's idle due to not being served data) and everything to do with how lists are handled by FGU's CPU thread. It's a pure expression of failed software design which the developers refuse or fail to improve. This PC is a modern car, but the road is more of an acre.

Twenty (20!) lines of text bring one of the most modern PCs down to its knees while other software does not even trip over millions of lines of text.

https://i.imgur.com/jLBuQk2.gif

That GIF is so illustrative of one of the many problems, it brings a tear to the eye.

Zacchaeus

December 1st, 2021, 17:42

Ah, ok. I just realised that I'm on TEST where the feats list is now broken down into pages rather that one long list. So it's only opening the first 100 feats. So looks like that one has been addressed.

ddavison

December 1st, 2021, 17:48

Let's not target posts at specific individuals within the company or the community. This thread title is personally directed and some of the posts and comments I'm seeing flying around are also personal. Those things create and foster animosity and are not conducive to a constructive discussion.

From SmiteWorks side, we work on a lot of different priorities and they may not line up with any specific user's priorities. Providing reports from multiple users of seemingly related or similar issues is helpful to demonstrate the breadth of the effect across the community. If your issue affects normal usage, it is often prioritized higher than academic exercises. They are both helpful, but the ones that affect our common usage scenarios get ranked higher. If an issue can be reproduced without thirdparty extensions, then this is even better because it helps us narrow down our focus and rule out something within the extension.

We are understaffed on who can research and dig into these issues. We have two developers who recently left and two new hires, one of which is currently redirected to work on another pressing issue that came up -- the FG Forge. We also have a handful of community rulesets that we have inherited or had to jump into to work on. Bringing any new resources on board falls heavily on Moon Wizard and I don't expect to get the same level of expertise any time soon on any other resources. As it is, we do have to pick and choose what we work on next. If something is a high priority for you, it may not be the highest priority for many other users. We monitor the forums, customer support emails, social media, and other direct communications with both current and prospective customers all the time. If you don't think we are managing these to your liking and you think another VTT will align better with your priorities, then that is certainly your prerogative.

Going forward, please avoid making any personal posts or commentary and focus solely on reports that can be used to reproduce and test issues once we get to that point and to posts which help provide insight into the severity of the issue for you personally, in a normal usage scenario.

Weissrolf

December 1st, 2021, 17:54

Like before, I will follow up with new data in a year again, even just to see my thread closed again without anyone even trying to discuss the data content posted. Some people feel that one follow up per year is spamming, but I can arrange that with my conscience.

Weissrolf

December 1st, 2021, 19:59

From SmiteWorks side, we work on a lot of different priorities and they may not line up with any specific user's priorities.
You keep handling the symptoms on a per case basis instead of tackling the causes. When you deliberately ignore reproducible memory leaks, extreme CPU (single thread) overload and clear evidence of autosave related program breakdowns then your priorities are the cause of your own and your customers misery. Symptoms vs. causes.

PS: Concerning the deleted "entitlement" message. I bought perpetual Ultimate licenses for Classic and Unity. I did not hear back from developers about the original thread/issue for a whole year. Do I lose my entitlement to support after that?

SilentRuin

December 1st, 2021, 20:32

Do I lose my entitlement to support after that?

I have always heard back from Moon and company if I had a relevant clear demonstration of a problem. Does that mean I've heard back on everything I've posted that I felt would be nice to hear back on?

Of course not.

I think its safe to say my occasional blunt statements have annoyed some - including various members of the FGU staff :)

But I have understood the context of what I could reasonably expect to happen. Even if I voiced my opinion anyway.

So we share that. What we don't share though...

Is your inability to listen to what they are telling you. And simply plow on ahead as if they have never said a word.

But, back to point on your question about "Do I lose my entitlement to support after that?"...

You have gotten support and interactions. So in that aspect of your question the answer would be "You've had support.".

But in the true context of your question, I'm not a fan of people phrasing a question that is not really a question but a carefully crafted way of making their point with no real way to answer it.

While you have an unlimited license, as I do, you are not "unlimited" in support and interactions.

So if that clashes with your sense of "unlimited" entitlement to these things, or your feeling you should be able to create "unlimited" posts with no real new information or message... Sorry. It is what it is.

Listen to what they tell you they can do or don't.

But if you feel they have not gotten your overall message or "You're not doing it right, I could do better"... do not worry. Message received. So rest easy now.

Weissrolf

December 1st, 2021, 21:07

Looks like classic memory leak. Something in memory is not being released only the dev's can solve it. A very good find though - I like when a community can give the dev's a major set of details to help solve a problem! Well done!

Memory leaks sometimes lead to an underlying flaw that can cause other issues. They are always, ALWAYS worth investigating.

This is enough for us to look into.

One year later...

The memory leak of FGU's chat still does not seem to be solved:
Following with detailed measurements and new insights.

I'm closing this thread for now, because it has more than adequate information to investigate when we have the resources to investigate stress test cases.

you are not "unlimited" in support and interactions

LordEntrails

December 1st, 2021, 21:14

Yep, one year later and there are still more important things for them to work on given the resources they have had available. Again, you can be not happy with how your issue has been prioritized, but it has not been ignored. Personally, since this issue does not currently affect me, I have no interest in it being solved. But I recognize others are impacted by this and they rightly have a desire for it to be prioritized highly. I'm happy I don't have to prioritize FGs issues, I get enough of that at work.

Weissrolf

December 1st, 2021, 21:23

Memory leaks, CPU bottlenecks and extreme overloads are not my issues, they are FGU's issues. Our group can mostly handle ourselves with our own workarounds. Like unloading all modules for players, with only me as GM loading them. Pasting longer text into Discord chats instead of FGU's chat. And so on and so forth.

SilentRuin

December 1st, 2021, 21:26

Zacchaeus

December 1st, 2021, 21:56

For goodness sake will you all just stop.

You've all made your points over and over again. I'm sick of seeing it. If you have something worthwhile to contribute then do so but stop picking on each others posts like little children.

BushViper

December 1st, 2021, 22:30

As I said Weissrolf, you even quote their stated reasons that they don't have the resources to investigate these things. But you do not listen. And just keep hammering away insisting your priorities must be their priorities.

As someone just said, these are not problems I suffer from so I'm happy to have the ones I do care about being addressed.

I have to admit, I wonder if your joking around based on you quoting all the posts from high level people at FGU telling you they will look at it when they can dedicate resources to it (which is not a time thing - its a priority thing).

And then turning around and acting like you are being ignored. I admit it cracked me up a bit when I read you quoting me about you are not entitled to unlimited support and interactions.

Because it sure seems like you are getting a lot more support interactions than I ever got on any subject I've ever brought up.

If your not joking, then, I think they should just leave you post away as no matter how many times they "interact" to explain their position and why they don't feel this is a priority among the limited things they can work at any one time - you will never agree or understand it.

Still... that last reply of yours was pretty ironic ;)

Why bother responding to the the thread if you're not having the reported issues, you're not a FG employee, a forum moderator, or a Smiteworks developer? All you're doing is continuing to drive the wedge between the people that feel ignored and the staff.

Furthermore, the real irony is you equating "support" to the effectively useless lip-service that is often given on the forums.

I get that SW is understaffed. I really do. I understand development cycles and how project priorities are arranged and executed. However, I also understand when a passionate customer brings forth HARD evidence that there is a problem. Evidence that you, yourself, lauded as valuable. That same information was also acknowledged by several SW team-members as "more than enough to work with" but, after a year's passing, it's obvious that nothing has been done with that information. Thus, I understand and empathize with Weiss' frustration because fixing core, fundamental issues should be a priority before stacking other issues/features on top of problems. That's not really an opinion, that's just good general practice.

Performance issues on FGU is not a new revelation or problem. They're quite common (even if often ignored by staff), but people deploy millions of workarounds or simply grin and bear the issues in order to keep playing. However, they shouldn't have to deal with those issues. I'm a relatively new user to FG (about 10 months) and I don't have any experience with FGC, but FGU has always performed like **** for me. However, I stuck with it thinking that it must be ME doing something wrong, but after dozens of tweaks, concessions, etc., FGU still runs far worse than anyone should reasonably expect. FGU is essentially a text-based GUI. It's not complex software. So why does FGU have such a massive problem performing simple tasks that are objectively rudimentary?

Again, a few lip-service forum posts is not "support." However, to be fair, some of the folks, like Zacchaeus seem to genuinely be interested in the problem despite being relatively powerless to actually do anything about it. It's the folks with the ability to do something that seem like they couldn't care less.

Lastly, I realize and embrace the hypocrisy of my post being of very similar tone to yours, but if you (and others) are going to talk %s^!, I'm not above doing it too. I've lurked the forums and FG Discord for nearly a year and while there are some folks that are true gems that are absolute saints and a treasure to the community, there also some complete douchebags in positions of authority (or perceived authority) that have absolutely no business being there.

P.S.
SilentRuin, please take 5 minutes and learn the difference between your and you're.