Stupid $%^^#*^ voice chat.

[NymTevlyn]

Stop freaking using it people. It doesn't help as much as you think it does and just ruins the game for a lot of people who won't play using it.

[Dachannien]

Is it really appropriate to tell other people how they should or should not enjoy their game?

[NymTevlyn]

I'm just sick and frakking tired of joining games that start out with no voice chat, and then the dumbass DM requires it. I'm sick and tired of about every damn game I join running for one or two sessions and then the DM disappears.

[Sorontar]

I'm just sick and frakking tired of joining games that start out with no voice chat, and then the dumbass DM requires it. I'm sick and tired of about every damn game I join running for one or two sessions and then the DM disappears.

I can see how that would be annoying.

In my opinion pure chat leads to better in character statements when done well. I don't miss the chat around the table in all honesty as there's always some wisecrack that derails the game for 15 minutes.

Plus there is no way I could chat up a female character when there a big gruff voice at the other end :D

Having said that I can see how it has its uses.

The issue isn't with VOIP really it's with DMs not clearly defining their games aint it.

[Tokuriku]

As a GM, I can just say that the strain on the GM behind the screen is quite bir since he has to keep a story going AND manage a piece of software at the same time. If you add on that the fact that he has to type all that happens, then you've got a REALLY tired GM at the end of the session. Do that for 2 to 3 sessions and you have the potential for someone wanting voici IP in my opinion.

Now the fact that it's not announced from the beginning is unexcusable.

As for the games not continuing, I feel your discouragment. It seems so hard to find a regular group. As a GM, you often inherit on top of all the other jobs you have to do to prepare the game, the job of the coordinator and it's sooooo frustrating at times. If you have 4 players, it is bound to happen that 1 player won't be able to be there simply because how life works. That player, wether he likes it or not will loose a small part of interest and so will the others and then you enter a vicious circle. Now the thing is the GM will face this inevitably because the more players he has, the more probabilities are against him.

Personaly, I can't blame GMs who just give up...

That said, if there was a way to give ratings on people here, maybe it would help a lot like in Neverwinter Connections (https://www.neverwinterconnections.com/) or something. You could easily find a GM that you like and the reasons you like. For example, someone that's most always present.

Maybe we are starting to discover the limitations of online RPG with Virtual Tables but, in my experience, it was the same in real life LOL

Well let's keep our hopes up and if you are looking for a stable game, you could try mine :D
The Dark Eye Campaign
(https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6957&page=3)

[NymTevlyn]

I don't find it any trouble to type. I use a random map generator and just make up stuff as I go along. I don't even pre-plan npc's except name and type for the combat tracker. I've used mirc to run online games and really... FG2 makes it easier. Less work. Less work than even running offline games. So I'm afraid I don't put much stock in DM's being worn out by having to type and run software.

[scytale2]

I agree with your sentiments, Nym. My only comment would be that you would not want to exclude DMing from those who have dyslexia or difficulties with spelling etc. and are more fluent vocally, as a result.
I myself type as though I can't spell and can't string three words in a sentence together, but I still DM:) (minus voice).

[richvalle]

Tsk, tsk.

I guess I'm one of the 'dumbass DMs' that use voice. It works for me. It works for my group. We've been using it for 2 years so we must be doing something right. I'm surely not going to drop it on your advice.

But rest assured that I won't be inviting you to my game anyway. Not that you would join it either. :)

Good luck in finding a game that suits your needs.

rv

[zifnab69_fr]

When we play around a table, we use voice, so why don't use it over the internet ?
With my friends, we love using voice

[Donna]

In my opinion, voice not only makes it easier to play the game, it makes it easier and more fun to get to know the people you are playing with.

If I wanted to just type at a computer I'd play a MUD or something.

[Yenooc]

. . .as there's always some wisecrack that derails the game for 15 minutes.

:D Actually (IMHO, of course), many of those derailments make the game very enjoyable, especially with a group that has played together for quite a while. It's that social bantering--I plead guilty--that brings me back again and again. Of course, it can get so extreme that nothing else gets done, but that's why the DM carries that big club. ;)

[Toadwart]

Dm'd for a year without voice and it was fine apart from the spelling mistakes. Though now I'd definately go with voice.

Have played in campaigns using voice and it really does help speed up the game.
However, It can be frustrating at times. If it's not configured correctly, and sometimes in "the heat of battle", you can end up missing parts of a sentence.
Not being able to see the other person leaves you wondering: are they just taking a pause to gather their thoughts? or did the software just not transmit that last word??

I also tend to prefer typed text for in-character actions. Gives more time to think about how my character would speak/act.
Voice is definately better for resolving out-of-game stuff like "is that haste spell still active?" and general table-talk :)

[scytale2]

I think you are talking about two different types of playstyles. The problem is that the wisecracker is often spoiling it for the "immersive" player, who likes to consistently stay in character, whereas the "immersive" player won't spoil the game for the "banter" style player and will probably enhance it, if they don't get too cheesed off.

I quite like both, but prefer on-line to play serious and be in with the wisecrackers face to face.

[Dachannien]

To some degree, you're going to have more problems with a pickup group than you are with a regular group of people who are already friends. The same is true in MMOGs - I can't tell you how many pickup groups in EQ I've been in where someone suddenly has to go to the store (or whatever) in the middle of the group. And with only one or two exceptions, I've never been in a pickup group where I later grouped up with the same people.

Eventually, you'll hopefully find a group of people who mesh well with your own playstyle, though. :)

[Tropico]

To be fair to Nym, he is specifically talking about games that start out with no voice (hence potentially and obviously attracting players who don't like to use voice in the first place) and later on switch to requiring the use of voice to continue to participate.

He made that quite clear, and even though it was in his second post, I think it misses the point entirely to make it about 'voice vs no voice'. There are plenty of other threads about that already.

As to the switching, a game switching from no voice to voice hasn't happened to me yet, but yes, I would indeed be annoyed by it were it to happen.

Neither way of playing is superior nor preferable to the other. It depends on your own taste. But they are totally different from one another, and to change from one ot the other changes the tone and style of the game into something completely different, so yes, I would say Nym has every right to be annoyed by the situation in general.

So instead of jumping up on a soapbox about how you personally use and like voice (which is obviously your god-given right and nobody is arguing that it isn't), why don't we talk about the actual issue here: Should GM's be free to switch from one to the other willy-nilly? Or should they consult with the players first? Once a campaign starts with one preference, is it better for it not to change, or is it worse? Is the campaing hurting itself by alienating some of its original players, or does it not matter anyway in the end??

[Sorontar]

IMO me its like House rules

State them at the start of the campaign and stick to them so that everyone knows where they stand.

The calander could probably do with improving somewhat to include all of the issues that have been cropping up so things like times of games, system, genre, VOIP? are all in fields and you can search by them as a player looking for a game.

[Toadwart]

Yep. Fair enough. Nym is obviously frustrated by the changing requirements. And rightly so.
Have been on the other end (as a DM with players who couldn't be bothered letting me know when they would be late/unavailable/never showing up again) which was bloody frustrating.

Have had much better luck finding good DMs:
A big shout-out to 2 of the best darn DMs ever: Stuart and Griogre :D
If ya ever get a chance to play with them jump at it!

[Andugus]

Having played in many groups and in many game sessions over the last year I have gained experience with table top gaming. I have come to the conclusion that no matter how good one or two people are at typing there will always be someone who can't type well. I also do not just whip up maps and "wing it." Preparation is important for my game or the games I play in. I want to feel immersed in the game world's I play and run.

In short, I would not GM a game without VOIP being the main way characters interact. This allows for a more responsive exchange of ideas. The tabletop is great for taking actions and nuanced background roleplay that adds to the visualization of what is going on.

We all have opinions and there are obviously different ways to do things. This is just how I prefer it.

[NymTevlyn]

Having played in many groups and in many game sessions over the last year I have gained experience with table top gaming. I have come to the conclusion that no matter how good one or two people are at typing there will always be someone who can't type well. I also do not just whip up maps and "wing it." Preparation is important for my game or the games I play in. I want to feel immersed in the game world's I play and run.
I don't need to spend hours and hours to make my players feel immersed into the game. You're insinuating anyone that wings it is obviously in inferior DM.

[scytale2]

Being able to "wing it" is the sign of a capable GM. It's actually easier to do this in text chat, as you have more time to think. Having said that, as Tropico said, this thread is about changing to Voice mid-campaign, which is clearly annoying to those with an aversion to or reasons for not wishing to do Voice.
Clearly this should be a joint decision by GM and players, if the game starts with text only. A GM at the very least should give warning of the change and spend time discussing it, with the reasons for and against. At the end of the day, though, the GM makes the decisions, not the players and sometimes difficult decisions have to be taken.
This is another issue for inclusion on the updates to this web-site, as it is clearly a very relevant issue to many.

[richvalle]

What could be happening in these games is the same that happened to me/us. I wanted to start out using typing for in character talk to help with the immersion/role playing and use voice for out of game stuff. The typing ended up being so slow compaired to talking via voice we ditched after two games as the players were just getting frustrated.

Maybe the games NymTevlyn have joined are DM's just starting out with FG and WANTING to do it via typing to switching to voice after a few games once they see how it works.

I can accept that people are different and that NymTevlyn and others like doing everything by typing. I don't have a problem with that. Heck, I'd try playing a game that was typing only.

But NymTevlyn seems to insist that because voice doesn't work for him its no good for anyone. And with his 'it doesn't help you as much as you think' that becuase it is such a fast and good typer that everyone can type as well as himself.

Sorry... but it ain't so. Playing the game by voice DOES help us. A lot. It is WAY faster for us to talk to each other then to try and do everything by typing.

There are advantages to playing each way. Tying to say that voice has NO advantage because you don't like it is wrong.

As for NymTevlyn's games yes, that would be frustrating. Its a bait and switch for him as he's not getting the game he thought he was. I do think the DM has the right to play the game the way he thinks is best but he needs to take his players views into account as well. He should tell the players he wants to try playing with voice and why and ask them if that is ok with them. Heck, some players might not even have a mic headset and be unwilling to go out and buy one.

If most the players want to play with voice then go for it. If most don't, then the DM either keeps playing without or decide to ditch the game and start over advertising up front that it will be a voice game. If he decides to ditch the game he should let the players know about it so the doesn't just drop off the face of the earth for them.

rv

[Tokuriku]

I think, as others have said, that we should be carefull in what we write.
I'm not pointing anyone in particular except myself :D
And I say this very candidly.

These boards and this community has been the most polite and most friendly community I have seen on the web.
I wouldn't like for it to change and become a flaming battleground.
Though the discussions are still mild, I can see a tendency in this thread.
Difference of opinion has never been a factor here and no-one has ever been offended by it because nobody that I know here has the intent of offending with their posts or ideas.
I for one, would like to make it perfectly clear that never has it been my intention and excuse myself it my posts gave that impression.
That said I invite anyone who feels their post may have been portrayed as such to follow in this lead.

[Sigurd]

Personally, I'm not worried about a little frustration from a polite poster.


Personally, I have rejected teamspeak and (I guess) all the voip strategies.

While they undeniably add something to the gametable I think they include a lot more, non game, data: noises, jokes, breathing etc.....

The overriding reason however is that I usually end up in games that run quite late. My lady wife, who sleeps in the room next to me, is disturbed by my rantings. It is not really polite for me to use voice in my home. Similarly, I have no loud sound affects.

I still enjoy the game though but I prefer to play without voice. If I'm just listenning I get all the noise and none of the benefits. Also, if people are using their ears for whats going on they ignore the chat window and unless you are also using voice you tend to get second class treatment.


Sigurd

[richvalle]

I guess I got annoyed by someone basically posting that any dm using voice was a dumbass. You can have your preferences and stick with them, but shouldn't fling stones at people that like the game a different way then you.

I've tried to temper my responses but maybe I didn't do a good job. So... if I have irritated anyone I'm sorry. It really is all ok and I really do hope that the OP finds the games he likes... and doesn't have them changed on him partway though!

rv

[Sorontar]

Can't you feel the love, group hug everyone :p

[richvalle]

Can't you feel the love, group hug everyone :p

Hey now! One of the reasons to use VT is so you are NOT in the same room as the people you are playing with.

:) :)

rv

[NymTevlyn]

Voice chat is for people too lazy to improve their typing speed and skills. Unless you have a physical reason for typing slow, there's absolutely no reason to use voice chat. There's no record of what was said or done, unless you want to save and archive tons of sound files or transcribe them to text after every sessions.

Players who go afk have to ask what happened when they get back. They can't just scroll up to see what was said in their absence. The DM and players have to rely on their memory to remember everything that was said over voice chat. It's just a lazy option for lazy people that has no real benefit that outweighs its negatives.

And that is my opinion in its purest form.

[Sorontar]

And here was me thinking we'd all merrily agreed to disagree and realise that "each to their own" is the most harmonious route ;)

Oh well.

*vacates the forum*

[Ram Tyr]

I guess I got annoyed by someone basically posting that any dm using voice was a dumbass. You can have your preferences and stick with them, but shouldn't fling stones at people that like the game a different way then you.
Quoted for truth.

Later.

[Traygin]

Voice chat is for people too lazy to improve their typing speed and skills. Unless you have a physical reason for typing slow, there's absolutely no reason to use voice chat. There's no record of what was said or done, unless you want to save and archive tons of sound files or transcribe them to text after every sessions.

Players who go afk have to ask what happened when they get back. They can't just scroll up to see what was said in their absence. The DM and players have to rely on their memory to remember everything that was said over voice chat. It's just a lazy option for lazy people that has no real benefit that outweighs its negatives.

And that is my opinion in its purest form.

Nym I think a town is missing its village idiot, you should go back soon so they can continue to throw rocks at you! Perhaps technology scares you, maybe you are too lazy to find a live in person game, perhaps live in person games the players cannot stand you so you need to play online because you do not want people to know what a fool you really are.

For me VoIP is a great way to go, and no I am not lazy to improve my typing skill, I am a software developer and type 8-10 hours of day writing code and Use Cases etc… for software projects (mostly web apps). The last thing I want to do is type for another 3 hours playing D&D online.

The only real point you have is that if you start a game that is typed chat only and it switches on you, yes I can see your point since you looked for a typed chat game and it switches to a VoIP game. But other than that don’t start having a hissy fit because you do not have a grip on new technology. Good god what are you going to say in 10 years from now when they have some sort of holographic internet technology, are you going to say that everyone should be only using obsolete 30 year old technology!

Get a grip!!!! If you only like typed chat good for you play typed chat games and make sure the DM’s do not switch it on you. Don’t berate people who grasp new technology and can work with it.

Get It!!! Got It!!! Good!!!

[Griogre]

I guess I got annoyed by someone basically posting that any dm using voice was a dumbass. You can have your preferences and stick with them, but shouldn't fling stones at people that like the game a different way then you.

QFT.

I tried to stay out of this tread, but wow NymTevlyn. You do know there are people who are dyslexic (like me) who will *never* type past a certain speed? There are also people who are handicapped who can't type period and who look for a voice only game as hard as you look for a type only one? I am a programmer and I spend a ton of time typing as it is – if I don’t want to type much during a game – why should it rile you?

You got a raw deal when they changed the game on you. Find another, there’s lots of fish in the sea.

[NymTevlyn]

Perhaps technology scares you, maybe you are too lazy to find a live in person game, perhaps live in person games the players cannot stand you so you need to play online because you do not want people to know what a fool you really are.
1. I'm perfectly capable of using and understanding voice chat.
2. I have no desire to do so because it is for lazy or handicapped people. (I did mention that already Grigore.)
3. I prefer to game online because it's easier for me to get into character.
4. I gamed live, with real people for years before using anything online. Still do occasionally.


For me VoIP is a great way to go, and no I am not lazy to improve my typing skill, I am a software developer and type 8-10 hours of day writing code and Use Cases etc… for software projects (mostly web apps). The last thing I want to do is type for another 3 hours playing D&D online.
I type for a living too. I type all day long. It's easy and I type quite quickly. Last time I was tested I could type 90 wpm with only two mistakes.


The only real point you have is that if you start a game that is typed chat only and it switches on you, yes I can see your point since you looked for a typed chat game and it switches to a VoIP game. But other than that don’t start having a hissy fit because you do not have a grip on new technology.
This has nothing to do with technology at all. You're the one being the village idiot now. Lazy DM's want to use voice chat because they're too lazy to type.


Good god what are you going to say in 10 years from now when they have some sort of holographic internet technology, are you going to say that everyone should be only using obsolete 30 year old technology! Get a grip!!!! If you only like typed chat good for you play typed chat games and make sure the DM’s do not switch it on you. Don’t berate people who grasp new technology and can work with it.
Piss off. I don't need voice chat, don't want it, and don't like it. It's for lazy people. You keep harping on it as if it's some godsend of technology when it's just a bastardized conference call over the phone

Grigore, I'm dyslexic too.

[Traygin]

1. I'm perfectly capable of using and understanding voice chat.
2. I have no desire to do so because it is for lazy or handicapped people. (I did mention that already Grigore.)
3. I prefer to game online because it's easier for me to get into character.
4. I gamed live, with real people for years before using anything online. Still do occasionally.


I type for a living too. I type all day long. It's easy and I type quite quickly. Last time I was tested I could type 90 wpm with only two mistakes.


This has nothing to do with technology at all. You're the one being the village idiot now. Lazy DM's want to use voice chat because they're too lazy to type.


Piss off. I don't need voice chat, don't want it, and don't like it. It's for lazy people. You keep harping on it as if it's some godsend of technology when it's just a bastardized conference call over the phone

Grigore, I'm dyslexic too.

No you piss off Nym!!!
And go slither back to the rock that you slithered from you moron.

Awe you type 90wpm good for you, go have a cookie!

You have the point of view if people do not agree with you they are wrong or are lazy. Well you are full of S$!t
If you like type chat games make sure the DM stay’s with typed chat, VoIP should not even concern you unless they do switch on you which would be wrong since you signed up for a game under the pretence of it being your preferred style of game play. Again do not berate people who like to use VoIP for their style of game play, your not the god of Virtual Game play.

And I am not saying VoIP is the Godsend of technology, it’s a way I like to play.

[NymTevlyn]

This message is hidden because Traygin is on your ignore list.
Voice chat is for lazy DM's and players.

[richvalle]

Well, look, there is an ignore list.


Goes off to put it to use for the first time in two years...

rv

[Traygin]

Using VoIP has nothing to do with laziness as you like to put it, it can be more about interacting with other players in a more table top like manner, other than the sterile environment of type chat.

If you get more out of typed chat then that’s good for you, some get more out of VoIP or like the interaction they get with other players that VoIP offers that you cannot get in typed chat. For some playing role playing games via a virtual table top game is not just the game and character development but also the personal interactions with those in the game much like a in person game.

[NymTevlyn]

Good. You lazy dm's don't deserve to read my ambrosia-like text I type in with fluid grace. =p

[Traygin]

Well, look, there is an ignore list.


Goes off to put it to use for the first time in two years...

rv

I guess Nym cannot take criticism, he/she can berate peoples style of game play and if they disagree with his/hers point of view they are automatically wrong.

[Traygin]

Good. You lazy dm's don't deserve to read my ambrosia-like text I type in with fluid grace. =p


OK :rolleyes:

[richvalle]

Well dang Traygin... I can see his messages if you quote them! Besides, it looks like he put you on ignore so he's not seeing what you say anyway.

Now that I can't see what NymTevlyn is saying I thought about starting a 'lets guess his age/problem' theme here but it seems best to just leave it alone.

Speaking of voice (haha) we'll be having our Thursday night game tonight complete with Skype and I'm looking forward to it!

Game on!!!!

BTW, anyone figure out if you can use Skype to play songs/sound? I meant to check that out last week and forgot.

rv

[Mellock]

BTW, anyone figure out if you can use Skype to play songs/sound? I meant to check that out last week and forgot.
rv

take a look at https://www.tunesup.net perhaps. I have a few Midnight Syndicate CD's laying around here which i'm looking to use at some point. So let me know how it works out!

[richvalle]

Hey! Thanks for that Mellock. I'll have to find some music that will fit the mood or sound bites. Maybe I'll just try to play something tonight just to see if it works.

Hmmm, I wonder if everyone needs it installed.

Maybe this would help others looking for a way to play sound. Not that they'll find it buried deep into this voice or no voice thread. :)

rv

[Traygin]

Good. You're welcome to join the others on my ignore list as well. Voice chat is for lazy and pathetic DM's that won't learn to type faster.

The only pathetic person on the boards is Nym!

[Traygin]

Well dang Traygin... I can see his messages if you quote them! Besides, it looks like he put you on ignore so he's not seeing what you say anyway.

Now that I can't see what NymTevlyn is saying I thought about starting a 'lets guess his age/problem' theme here but it seems best to just leave it alone.

Speaking of voice (haha) we'll be having our Thursday night game tonight complete with Skype and I'm looking forward to it!

Game on!!!!

BTW, anyone figure out if you can use Skype to play songs/sound? I meant to check that out last week and forgot.

rv


Yea I guess its best to leave it alone, Nym sure has a chip on his/her shoulder.

[Mellock]

Hey! Thanks for that Mellock. I'll have to find some music that will fit the mood or sound bites. Maybe I'll just try to play something tonight just to see if it works.

Hmmm, I wonder if everyone needs it installed.

Maybe this would help others looking for a way to play sound. Not that they'll find it buried deep into this voice or no voice thread. :)

rv


I don't t think everyone needs to have it installed really: after all if your voice can go out to everyone, so can music. It's just like a virtual cable, i suppose.

If you want: I got a handfull of Midnight Syndicate CD's after hearing a few full-length tracks of them they had up ont heir website as demo's. The site is https://www.midnightsyndicate.com . I'll take a look around the net as well; if I recall correctly they formed a new group as well, and may have some other demo's.

Theirs is mostly "spooky" music, but very well suited fot gaming. I have some anarchy online mp3's, and I took the music from the baldur's gate games I used to play as well. (heck, I bought the CD, might as well put it to good use.)

There's a lot of good music to be picked up on the NWN forums as well, and the composer for the game Divine Divinity has a website full of good MP3's that he lets you use.

[Traygin]

For all others besides Nym, I do apologies if you were insulted by my comments regarding the posts made by Nym. I was insulted by Nym’s comments saying that if you use VoIP in your game you are lazy etc…

[richvalle]

Don't worry about it Traygin. He got me with the 'dumbass' comment on the first page. But now, thanks to him, I've found the Ignore list and the the whole community (that I can see) is happy and good again.

Man, they should call that Ignore list the Rose Colored Glasses list. :)

Mellock, thanks again! I'll be sure to check out those links and suggestions.

rv

[Traygin]

Don't worry about it Traygin. He got me with the 'dumbass' comment on the first page. But now, thanks to him, I've found the Ignore list and the the whole community (that I can see) is happy and good again.

Man, they should call that Ignore list the Rose Colored Glasses list. :)

Mellock, thanks again! I'll be sure to check out those links and suggestions.

rv

True true true ;)

But I will alway's think of Nym as a "two bit prick", but I am sure he/she does not have high Opinions of me ether :cool:

[calvinNhobbes]

I find Nym's post on this topic and others very amusing and hypocritical due to a previous interaction with him.

I DM a chat game and plan on it always being chat because that is just my preference ;). Nym wanted to join, but insisted on playing a Duskblade in a game that was advertised as Core only. I said no since I didn't own the PHBII and told him I'd work with him using the core rules to satisfy his character concept. He felt the need to argue with me over and over again about it, and then just didn't show up on game night without ever saying he was no longer interested.

How ironic there is a chat only game out there that Nym will never get to play in because of his bad attitude and immaturity.

[NymTevlyn]

Oh bullshit. I asked if I could play a duskblade and you agree'd. I didn't insist on it at all. The duskblade fit what I wanted to play far better than a fighter/sorceror that could only cast spells without somatic components in armor. Two, you never mentioned voice chat until after the first character creation session was done with.

[richvalle]

Wow, nothing like limiting your choices and then putting holes into that ship once you get aboard!

Ahh well. I hope your game is turning out well regardless. :)

rv

[calvinNhobbes]

Oh bullshit. I asked if I could play a duskblade and you agree'd.
That is incorrect. I said I would consider outside material on a case by case basis. In other words, adding a feat or spell from here or there, not an entire class with their own unique spell list.


I didn't insist on it at all.
Oh really? I must have been confused then. Why did you argue that you wanted to play a duskblade and then not show up when I said no?


The duskblade fit what I wanted to play far better than a fighter/sorceror that could only cast spells without somatic components in armor.
Yes, I believe your arguments had something to do with power level and had no roleplaying or conceptual bearing what so ever.


Two, you never mentioned voice chat until after the first character creation session was done with.
Of course I didn't mention voice, because it is an all typed game. You know, like a chat room, hence my use of the word chat instead of voice in my previous post.

On that note, I think I'll join the party, and ignore Nym.

[NymTevlyn]

That is incorrect. I said I would consider outside material on a case by case basis. In other words, adding a feat or spell from here or there, not an entire class with their own unique spell list.
I asked. I described the type of character I wanted to play and you agreed to let me play a duskblade.


Oh really? I must have been confused then. Why did you argue that you wanted to play a duskblade and then not show up when I said no?
If I sign up for a game, I show up. The only reasons I don't show up, are because either the DM doesn't schedule the game and show up consistently, or they decide to use voice chat.


Yes, I believe your arguments had something to do with power level and had no roleplaying or conceptual bearing what so ever.
No, it was a blend of concept and ability. A fighter/sorceror is far weaker than any other single class character. It would have been a hindrance to the party. Using just the PHB, there is no way to play an armored mage that is helpful to the group, which is what I was primarily interested in playing. Besides, I consider the PHB II core. It's got a lot of good stuff in it for players to play a class a little differently or try out a couple concepts that are balanced.


Of course I didn't mention voice, because it is an all typed game. You know, like a chat room, hence my use of the word chat instead of voice in my previous post.
Either you just sucked as a DM and didn't show up for your scheduled games, or voice chat was mentioned. Those are the only reasons I stop playing a game.


On that note, I think I'll join the party, and ignore Nym.
Again, good. I hope all of you dorks put me on ignore so you can't see a thing I post and you'll never, ever be in any of my excellent, off-the-cuff chat only campaigns.

[calvinNhobbes]

rv,
It's been going great for about 10 months now! Players have come and gone for various reasons, but the best ones seem to stay as bad ones trail off. I've got a really solid group of players now. Although they all complain how freakishly intelligent all the monsters in my campaign seem to be!

[Yenooc]

I'm still waiting for Nym to announce that his recent adolescent rants have actually been part of a huge put-on, designed to push this otherwise friendly and tolerant group over the edge . . . but I'm not holding my breath.

I guess I'll have to add myself to that list of those who choose to deprive themselves of his wonderful self and all the accompanying benefits.

Bye, Nym

[Traygin]

You know Nym likes to rail against people that use VoIP to play their game, call’s them lazy etc… that VoIP takes a way from the game and character development, only typed chat is the way to go and if you do not use it you are loser, lazy ect… You have to use typed chat, only that way you can get character development, play the game better etc…

Well Nym your arguments have no bearing, on that same note, there are a lot of people who play role playing games that believe that if you play a game online using a Virtual Table Top program (VTT) such as Fantasygrounds that you cannot get true character development, the game is just not as playable and enjoyable etc… (which I am not one of, I like VTT programs). So to them you are not getting true character development ect… What’s your argument to them…You got type chat so that makes it all right!

[Foen]

Hey guys, we're cool here.

No need for this personal stuff, some of which seems a little off topic, it's only a game. I'm certainly in this for fun rather than throwing stones.

Chill.

[richvalle]

rv,
It's been going great for about 10 months now! Players have come and gone for various reasons, but the best ones seem to stay as bad ones trail off. I've got a really solid group of players now. Although they all complain how freakishly intelligent all the monsters in my campaign seem to be!

Heh... 'freakishly intelligent'. Thats funny!

DM: "And the oozes move into flanking position cutting you off from the exit!"
Players: "Oh man, we were just outmaneuvered by oozes!"

I think your game exp is normal for someone picking up players from the wild. As long as you end up with a good core group its all good but it can take a while to get there.

rv

[calvinNhobbes]

DM: "And the oozes move into flanking position cutting you off from the exit!"
Players: "Oh man, we were just outmaneuvered by oozes!"


Close! There was the giant ant encounter where the ants were using five foot steps to avoid being flanked.
Players: AOO!
DM: No, that was a five foot step.
Players: But it's a mindless ant!
DM: True, but it does have 13 wisdom, so I think that gives it a pretty good survival instinct.
Players: Damn it!

[Traygin]

Hey guys, we're cool here.

No need for this personal stuff, some of which seems a little off topic, it's only a game. I'm certainly in this for fun rather than throwing stones.

Chill.


True true :o

[Sigurd]

Hey Traygin,

Nicely typed ! :D

[Traygin]

Hey Traygin,

Nicely typed ! :D

Hey thanks Sigurd

I defiantly needed to take the chill pill after getting all worked up over Nym’s comments. We just need to take a step back and take a deep breath and enjoy the game :)

[NymTevlyn]

I don't really care what any of you think. Voice chat is for lazy people.

[Hamish]

If you don't care what anybody thinks, why did you post here in the first place? :confused:

[mattllow]

I don't really care what any of you think. Voice chat is for lazy people.

Yes, through the entirety of human existence on the planet, people choosing to interact socially though verbal communication have done so out of laziness, and a stubborn refusal to take the time to hand each other written statements or carve an applicable stick figure on a cave wall.

That's why we talk to each other. Laziness.

Before this whole new-fangled internet thing, gamers used to sit around tables actually talking to each other, because they were, of course, exceedingly lazy. Some particularly lazy people still choose to play that way...can you imagine?



Seriously, everyone is free to play how they wish, if they can find like minded people to play with, but let's not be foolish. I require voice chat for my online games, because my time is precious and I’ve put a lot effort into my campaign for my players, and want to make sure we can get the most out of each session efficiency wise, and I enjoy the social interaction, subtle meanings and understandings that text-only communication scrubs from the discourse. Of course, I have the benefit of playing online with people I've come to know and like, which may not be the same for everyone...pickup groups of random people are always a dicey proposition and far from ideal for any TT game.

But I realize it's not an option for everyone...some people are playing from dorm rooms or houses with family or roommates asleep, or have some other limitation that makes it not work for them. Some people may just be too self-conscious for one reason or another (though tabletop gaming isn’t really a sport for the self-conscious). Some people have different degrees of proficiency with written and spoken language in an international arena. Some people confuse rigid "in-character" speech with roleplaying, in which case it probably is much less painful to type out "thee's" and "thous" in text without having to say them...but that's a subject for another thread.

So there are all sorts of legitimate reasons why one might eschew online voice chat for internet games. Conversely, I would really think that the appeal and benefits of real time voice communication for any game should be readily apparent without having to explain them.

People opposed should have no problem finding a game...just not in mine. I don't feel that a back and forth , text-only situation accurately or efficiently captures the tabletop gaming experience, and some things are worth doing right or not at all, unless you're desperate, which some people certainly are depending if they have no access to any real TT games in their area. But I generally don't think people who would prefer not to talk to other players are "silly", and I certainly don't think players who enjoy the benefits of VoIP components to online games are "lazy".

[Sorontar]

You still got your lucky dice you rubbed on Dave Arneson Matt? :D

[Ablefish]

Lol, what a hilarious thread. Anyone else get the feeling that DMs started switching their games to chat on him just to drop his opinionated ***?

The best part is when the posts go from bragging about never preparing for dming sessions and then proceed to accusing other people of laziness. Textbook hypocrisy - awesome.

Not to say that 'winging it' can't make for a perfectly enjoyable game, but to somehow link typing speed with the ability to play a role-playing game is an interesting stretch. At the risk of being accused of laziness, I think I'm going to continue preparing games (including large blocks of draggable text...) while also using voice chat to keep the pace going and answer OOC. My players always have a good time, so something must be going right somewhere along the way. :)

[Tokuriku]

Well since I'm fed up with Nym quite a lot, I'll just say 2 things. First in my post above I didn't point anyone but I was sure thinking of you Nym. I tought you'd get the message, I was wrong.

Second, the lazy one is YOU. You are the first to say that since you are such a good GM, you play on the fly, make no preparation for your games. I have nothing against people who want to do it that way but it is the MOST LAZY way of DMing. Let me say it in bold: You can't even put 5 minutes to prepare your games and presume to use words such as lazy?!?

I think you should change your tune man. Typing has nothing to do with lazyness. Tell me Nym, how many languages do you speak? I hope it's not only english. I speak 5 languages and had to learn learn and learn some more. I had to polish all those things trough meaningless, boring conversations to arrive at a degree of fluency. It took many years of diligent practice wich was boring, but while bored I persisted... Can YOU say the same? Before trying and use concepts such as this try and grow up!

[Sigurd]

Gentlemen, obviously the Moderators are not around to close this thread or it would have been stopped.

Please, without any insult to anyone's opinion\beliefs, LET IT DROP.

Agree to dissagree and give each other the benefit of the doubt for harsh words.


There are better things to do.


ps.

This doesn't mean we need 25 posts in agreement\dissagreement with bits of this message. Lets just get back to creative gaming & making the _most_ of our agreements.

[Tokuriku]

I'm the first to agree, I just wanted it to stop once and for all and by destroying his argument about lazyness, I tought that the argumenting might stop. Something that I fail to see why nobody pointed out in the first place. I like this place and its calm productive environment too much to just let people transform it into a warzone. Just don't want anyone else to get hooked on insults empty of values.

I will go back to my usual self and nowhere on the forums will you see such berating stuff from my part as I have writen here. It is the first time and probably the last time you will see that out of me ;)

[Lupus Astrum]

Damn - I realize dropped games are annoying... but I didn't know they were so intensely psychologically impacting... Nym's gone absolutely insane.

What a disappointment...

[Foen]

Hey folks, I thought we were cool? Chill!

Like Sigurd said: the debate is closed. Take personal stuff to FUM, ugly is OK there :p

S

[Traygin]

As Sigurd as said we must drop it, everyone has their opinions about text chat or VoIP. I believe most people really do not care what style of game play people have other than what works for them on how they get the most out of the game and how they want to interact with other players.

I for one I have bigger fish to fry such as working on a map and getting the scale right for my game.

Happy gaming everyone

[NymTevlyn]

Second, the lazy one is YOU. You are the first to say that since you are such a good GM, you play on the fly, make no preparation for your games. I have nothing against people who want to do it that way but it is the MOST LAZY way of DMing. Let me say it in bold: You can't even put 5 minutes to prepare your games and presume to use words such as lazy?!?
The reason I don't prepare for sessions beyond a rough outline, is because I learn from my mistakes. Over the past fifteen years, I've seen more campaigns ruined by DM railroading (my own and other DM's), that I just threw in the towel and worked at improvising on the fly.

It's a helluva lot more enjoyable for me and keeps the players interested in the campaign, because I work the storyline around them, rather than trying to mold them into the storyline. So, while I don't go and completely stat out every monster, type in every room description ahead of time, I do have a rough outline of where I hope things might go, but I'm always ready to follow whatever wily hare the players get up their ***.

Look at it this way... who's better off... the DM that spends ten hours a week typing in and statting out everything, that gets tossed by the wayside when his players go left instead of right... or me... who has a rough outline that allows for such deviations by the players without causing a lot of wasted effort?

I've had it done to me before. I had this awesome dungeon planned. Full of rich encounters, puzzles, and traps. Lots of good storytelling and ambiance... and the players completely avoided it and still accomplished their goals.


I think you should change your tune man. Typing has nothing to do with lazyness. Tell me Nym, how many languages do you speak? I hope it's not only english. I speak 5 languages and had to learn learn and learn some more. I had to polish all those things trough meaningless, boring conversations to arrive at a degree of fluency. It took many years of diligent practice wich was boring, but while bored I persisted... Can YOU say the same? Before trying and use concepts such as this try and grow up!
I am only fluent in one language because it's all I need. I have no desire to work in any profession that requires me to be bi-lingual and learning an entire language just to visit someday isn't my thing.

[NymTevlyn]

Damn - I realize dropped games are annoying... but I didn't know they were so intensely psychologically impacting... Nym's gone absolutely insane.

What a disappointment...
Whatever. I'm sure most of you know the disappointment of failed games. You just get sick of it after awhile.

[Tokuriku]

Common Nym drop it, you are distorting words and don't face your own words. If you want a flame war, PM me, I'll invite you to ANOTHER forum and we can settle this outside, the hard way. Don't allineate everybody and stop trying to hook people in. You are the only reason it's continuing.

[NymTevlyn]

I'm not distorting anything. You slammed me for not preparing ahead of time, but I guarantee I type as much as anyone else. Probably more. I just make it up as I go, trying it in with character backgrounds and concepts and the direction the players wnat to run with it.

[Tokuriku]

Perfect Nym!
You are now exactly at the point where we can start to talk and I can say the following...

First, listen well, I am not your enemy :)
I actually want to help you here but I needed you to experience 1 thing to understand another.
The fact that you didn't use any judgements in your last 2 posts tells me that you are ready for this.

I am actually one of the biggest advocate for improvisationnal skills. You don't need to eplain to me the very nice points about the going and doing stuff on the fly. I've been using it for over 7 years now and I have more fun doing it and my players also really like it. Don't get me wrong, it has it's down points but in the hands of a good GM like you probably are, the payoffs are great. The only requirement is that players give credit to the GM and abide by his good jugement.

Now the reason I berated you and told you: "your lazy" was to make you understand that even though you have GOOD reasons for doing games on the fly, it can be construed by someone else who doesn't have your insight or your perspective as something that is lazy. I'm sure you can see it for yourself and that's why you stopped using those words.

In the same way, there are GOOD reasons why some people prefer some types of "gaming" but if you look at it only on the surface, voip might be viewed as lazy too. The people who prefer it do have reasons though and I'm rather inclined to think that anybody that is a GM is far from lazy.

From the first time that person wants to entertain others with a good story (be a GM), that person already sacrifices more effort in the game then his/her players ever will. So I tend to give them the benefit of the dought about laziness and stuff.

Now, the feeling you had when I told you your lazy was EXACTLY the same feeling all the people who like voip had while reading your comments. It's the same. They where as offended by your slamming as you where by my slamming as you so vividly point out. The diference is I did it on purpose but you didn't. That is why you can be excused for it. People will forgive it, thats 100% sure. With the community we have here, people cannot do anything but forgive you. That is if you want it. If you want to go back to the good side of the people you offended, you need only to say that your sorry, you understand now that you passed jugement on their beliefs and that you gave them grief that they didn't deserve.

They will understand for sure, we all know the state you where in on your first post. I would have been in the same state myself if a GM changed something about his campaign all of a sudden. I mean, you get into it for the specifics that where announced and now, you have to scratch all the time and effort put into it and find another group. That's pretty frustrating right.

Finally, let me say that I'm sorry, I'm sorry to have berated you and forced you to experience what you did by saying your lazy. Know that I strongly believe that you are not and more then that, that you are a person or principles that can hold his own and will keep his head high in adversity... to the end. Take this little piece of advice though:

"We here at this forum try to explore the plus' and minus' points of the many facets of the game. For it to be productive, we say these points but do not push jugement on it. People have their reasons for doing things and these reasons, nobody else can understand them fully because we are not walking in their shoes, you can't see things from their perspective. Passing jugement only shows that you cannot see past the surface and cannot keep this in perspective. Something that I'm positive is not your case because you have the wits and imagination of playing on the fly all the time."

That said, there is a hiden reason all this started but this is something you will have to find by your own. I believe the answer is there, in the bottom of your heart, hence only you can solve it. If you ever want to discuss it, I'm here for you.

Well, sorry for this long post but I hope it will prove profitable.
This I wanted to tell you from the start but didn't think you could listen clearly with the state of your feelings back then. I said it from the first post though. It was there all along, in my sig.

[joeru]

If you want to continue the discussion, take it to PMs. It's getting annoying.

[Tokuriku]

Is it annoying that I'm on his side and we can probably put this behind us?
I really can't believe you read my post before typing this...
Please, give him the chance.

This has to be adressed before it can stop.
I'm the first who wanted to drop it but it so that it would not build upon itself but it came to an extent that even if we drop it, it will spill in other places on the forum now.
I don't want that any more then you do.
Fortunatly, it hasn't yet.

Droping it would be running away from the problem only for it to rear it's ugly head in the near future with more force. Better face things now. Until this event, Nym has brought quite a few good and perceptive posts and I for one liked his contributions. I would like for things to go back to the way they where.

Please take the time to read my post completely and see it is there for a common solution that will last.
See that I'm not passing jugement on Nym, I'm not degrading him, I'm not telling him what to do, I'm not insulting him.
In fact I'm praising him for most of the post!!!
I know the advice I'm gonna give now will be the same that we see on a lot of bad forums but for this time once: the thread is only annoying for those who read it. Simply avoid it for now and if all goes well, you should not see any trace of it in the rest of the forum.

Peace.

[NymTevlyn]

If you want to continue the discussion, take it to PMs. It's getting annoying.

So don't click on the thread. No one's forcing you to read it.

[NymTevlyn]

That said, there is a hidden reason all this started but this is something you will have to find by your own.
Stop trying to sound like a damned psychologist. There is no hidden reason. I'm sick and tired of games getting changed without notice and I'm sick and tired of lazy dm's making lazy players that infect other dm's and players with their laziness. There's only one good reason to use voice chat and that's if you're incapable of typing at all due to a handicap.

Anything else "good" that's claimed about voice chat is countered by its negatives.

[Tokuriku]

Then I'm sorry you feel that way.
I'm no psychologist but I can say I somawhat understand these things cuz I was at your place a few years ago.
It wont be said that I didn't give you a fair chance.

[DrPhil]

Y'all should be on my show.

[Ablefish]

Lol. Laziness is doggedly repeating the same 'voice users are lazy' without taking the time to use your 90 wpm powers and actually responding to, or even acknowledging other points of view.

While I've never played in one of your games, I can't imagine it's so amazing that it makes up for such a closed mind.

Anyone know if you can call someone a troll if they started the thread in the first place? :P

[Goblin-King]

The content of this thread does not seem to be going into any direction that would promote fruitful discussion.