Status of GM Guide

[toastsniffer187]

The status of GM guide has not moved since added in almost a year. Any reason why? Do not take this as a swipe at you guys doing the work. Just curious if there is a hang up or just super low priority because of staff?

[damned]

GM Guides are not just reference manuals. They also introduce rule variants and that is a whole big programming challenge too...

[Willot]

GM Guides are not just reference manuals. They also introduce rule variants and that is a whole big programming challenge too...

I sometimes wonder if after the final meeting about the creation of new source material if the Lead Designer doesnt congratulate the "Trolling VTTers" Department on their good work LOL :D

[danman71]

GM Guides are not just reference manuals. They also introduce rule variants and that is a whole big programming challenge too...

Would it be possible to release it in stages? For example, sell it with the understanding that additional functionality will be released? For example maybe release it with free archetype and some other options and then add the others later as they are completed. Delaying it until it's 100% with all options doesn't seem to be working?

[ShadeRaven]

Now I am not involved in the decision making process... but from my perspective, I'd say this about the GM Guide: it's hard to put a full price tag down on a product without trying to support the integration with the ruleset within FGU. Unlike most of the other products, the real meat of the GM Guide is with the optional rules. Yes, it would be easy to simply put out a Reference Manual and support those items that are capable of being simply added, but... I think it's likely to be unsatisfactory for those who are paying full price for it to find out that the real juicy stuff simply is going to be there in a nice little display pane without any way to take advantage of it within the current system.

I expect that we'll see more capability to move towards supporting it after the next major ruleset update.

[Rzach]

One of the reasons I haven't purchased any Pathfinder 2e stuff yet is because the GM guide isn't done yet. Whole reason I started using FGU for my game was because Roll20(at the time) didn't have the 5e DM Guide but FG did. For myself at least, having a book like the Gamemastery Guide completed makes or breaks my willingness to support a game line. Hope to see it soon since I would like to run a 2e campaign.

[Trenloe]

One of the reasons I haven't purchased any Pathfinder 2e stuff yet is because the GM guide isn't done yet. Whole reason I started using FGU for my game was because Roll20(at the time) didn't have the 5e DM Guide but FG did. For myself at least, having a book like the Gamemastery Guide completed makes or breaks my willingness to support a game line. Hope to see it soon since I would like to run a 2e campaign.
Interesting viewpoint. I can understand that for 5e, because D&D specifically release a Player's Guide and a DM's Guide, and the DM's Guide for D&D has a lot of stuff for the base game - a quarter of the book is just magic items. But Pathfinder (both editions) create a Core Rules book that contains "stuff" for both players and GMs (there's over 80 pages of magic items and a 50 page chapter on Game Mastering) - you only need the PF2 Core Rules to get all of the base rules, whereas it's arguable that as a D&D 5e DM you'll need both the PHB and the DMG. The Pathfinders 2e Gamemastery Guide is not the same as the D&D DMG. D&D has always pretty much been you need the PHB, DMG and MM to run a game; that's not the same for Pathfinder - you need to Core Rules and Bestiary.

I'm interested to find out - what in the PF2 Gamemastery Guide is needed for you to run a PF2 campaign in FG?

[Rzach]

Monster and Item Creation, Generic NPC stat blocks, World building systems. That kind of stuff. I don't really consider the bare minimum from the core rules to cover enough to want to run the game. Monster Creation rules alone are enough for me to wait for the book to come out. Also I don't buy the physical books anymore. I only buy books on Fantasy Grounds or books on the Dungeon Masters Guild that are for fantasy grounds. One of the big things I really hate is having to reference a physical book when planning or running a game. That was a huge reason for me choosing FGU over Roll20. 5e had been out for several years and they still hadn't taken the time to bring a core book into their system.

[kaernunnos]

Monster and Item Creation, Generic NPC stat blocks, World building systems. That kind of stuff. I don't really consider the bare minimum from the core rules to cover enough to want to run the game. Monster Creation rules alone are enough for me to wait for the book to come out. Also I don't buy the physical books anymore. I only buy books on Fantasy Grounds or books on the Dungeon Masters Guild that are for fantasy grounds. One of the big things I really hate is having to reference a physical book when planning or running a game. That was a huge reason for me choosing FGU over Roll20. 5e had been out for several years and they still hadn't taken the time to bring a core book into their system.

Most of that wouldn't really be a built in system in FG, it's reference knowledge on how to use the system. And it is all available on AoN (https://2e.aonprd.com/Default.aspx)(and no offense to Trenloe, but as far as reference material goes, I find navigating AoN easier than how FG handles much of it). This website is also easier to navigate than the PDF, since everything is interlinked.

FG already can create monsters and items, the GMG is only a reference there. Shaderaven has some videos here on how to add automation to your monster creations here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?64192-Pathfinder-Second-Edition-Bestiaries-and-Automation). The wiki for handling item creation and other useful things is here (https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996643316/PFRPG2%2B-%2BPathfinder%2B2%2BRuleset).

GMG is 5 chapters, the first 3 are reference materials. Available on AoN here (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx).
Chapter 4 is the variant rules and the primary reason FG does not have the GMG yet, because there is a focus on fully realizing automation for the core rules before adding variant rules. 1 of the variant rules already has an extension, however: Proficiency w/o Level (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?59257-Proficieny-w-o-Level-(Gamemastery-Guide)&p=520268&viewfull=1#post520268)
Chapter 5 is just NPC pregens, which are available here. (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?57668-(PF2-Module)-Gamboa-OGL-Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs) (However this module was made before much of the improvements in automation, so there may be some issues)

[vonBlashyrkh]

Most of that wouldn't really be a built in system in FG, it's reference knowledge on how to use the system. And it is all available on AoN (https://2e.aonprd.com/Default.aspx)(and no offense to Trenloe, but as far as reference material goes, I find navigating AoN easier than how FG handles much of it). This website is also easier to navigate than the PDF, since everything is interlinked.

FG already can create monsters and items, the GMG is only a reference there. Shaderaven has some videos here on how to add automation to your monster creations here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?64192-Pathfinder-Second-Edition-Bestiaries-and-Automation). The wiki for handling item creation and other useful things is here (https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996643316/PFRPG2%2B-%2BPathfinder%2B2%2BRuleset).

GMG is 5 chapters, the first 3 are reference materials. Available on AoN here (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx).
Chapter 4 is the variant rules and the primary reason FG does not have the GMG yet, because there is a focus on fully realizing automation for the core rules before adding variant rules. 1 of the variant rules already has an extension, however: Proficiency w/o Level (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?59257-Proficieny-w-o-Level-(Gamemastery-Guide)&p=520268&viewfull=1#post520268)
Chapter 5 is just NPC pregens, which are available here. (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?57668-(PF2-Module)-Gamboa-OGL-Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs) (However this module was made before much of the improvements in automation, so there may be some issues)

I second all of this and what Trenloe said. There's nothing in the GMG necessary for running PF2 in FG. All you need is the Core ruleset. While you point out monster & item creation, even in FG those will just be reference pages, there won't be any mechanical automation, so the Archives of Nethys reference for example will do exactly the same thing and in truth much of it is what we've read in many a 'how to GM' guide over the years.

[Rzach]

I didn't want to derail this thread. I appreciate the advice but I had already considered these things. I don't enjoy switching between websites and FG the same way I dislike looking back and forth between a book and FG. I want to be able to open FG and just read my books and plan my games there. I like to sit on my couch with my gaming laptop and just plan out my sessions or read the new content. It's just what I like and I can understand that it may not make sense to you but this is what I like. Since this thread was about the status of the GM Guide I was making a note here that not having it affects my willingness to buy the game line.

As for automation... The optional rules in the DMG are not implemented in FG by default. If I want Sanity or Honor for instance, I have to use an extension for them. It's not just about automation for me. I am willing to run games without high levels of automation using FG. My intent when choosing a VTT is that I wanted a single program that had everything in it both for use in online gaming during the pandemic and for when I start running in person games again. At the time it was a choice between Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. I didn't consider Foundry since their 5e support looked like it was based on piracy. The deciding factor for me was that Roll20 didn't consider the DMG necessary for running games since they had the SRD content in the program already. Fantasy Grounds had the DMG. So I went with FG. Once I had purchased my books in FG I sold my physical copies to a local bookshop. Now I only buy 5e stuff if it is for FG. I would like to do the same for Pathfinder 2e. My priorities when deciding to purchase a game line are in this order: 1) Are the books I want to have in my library available? 2) Does this make running my game easier?

While I feel I may be an edge case, there is always the possibility that I am not. As a note I have the same issue with M&M 3e. Several books I consider essential for me buying into the game line are not available in FG. I really want to be able to replace my whole book collection with FG.

On a technical note, I am a .Net fullstack web developer. I am curious what makes the automation take so long to implement in the products if you are allowed to explain?

[ShadeRaven]

Rzach, I'll let Trenloe handle the technical side of things, but I can toss in some thoughts from my perspective.

When PF2 was first coming out, I knew it was a big ask to have all that content developed, tested, and implemented so I just took the bull by the horns, so to speak. First with the Bestiary, then with the Drag-n-Drop stuff (I still work on when I can). If you go out there, you'll find others doing equally great projects to help bridge some gaps while we wait for "official" releases.

Honestly, if I had the desire that you have to see the GM Guide get done, and the technical skill capable of doing it, I'd consider just pitching in as a community member and getting some workable version of what you are looking for. What's amazing about this place is that you can seek advice, find aid with various technical hurdles, and get great feedback from the members here. Speaking from experience, it really does go a long way to making the effort worthwhile.

Not only will you likely get to where you want to be, but you'll feel pretty good about contributing to the ruleset and the community at large. It's super easy to pop in the OGL license and share it.

Give it some thought and be sure that you'll have plenty of people excited to see what you can come up with.

[Trenloe]

I didn't want to derail this thread. I appreciate the advice but I had already considered these things. I don't enjoy switching between websites and FG the same way I dislike looking back and forth between a book and FG. I want to be able to open FG and just read my books and plan my games there. I like to sit on my couch with my gaming laptop and just plan out my sessions or read the new content. It's just what I like and I can understand that it may not make sense to you but this is what I like. Since this thread was about the status of the GM Guide I was making a note here that not having it affects my willingness to buy the game line.

As for automation... The optional rules in the DMG are not implemented in FG by default. If I want Sanity or Honor for instance, I have to use an extension for them. It's not just about automation for me. I am willing to run games without high levels of automation using FG. My intent when choosing a VTT is that I wanted a single program that had everything in it both for use in online gaming during the pandemic and for when I start running in person games again. At the time it was a choice between Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. I didn't consider Foundry since their 5e support looked like it was based on piracy. The deciding factor for me was that Roll20 didn't consider the DMG necessary for running games since they had the SRD content in the program already. Fantasy Grounds had the DMG. So I went with FG. Once I had purchased my books in FG I sold my physical copies to a local bookshop. Now I only buy 5e stuff if it is for FG. I would like to do the same for Pathfinder 2e. My priorities when deciding to purchase a game line are in this order: 1) Are the books I want to have in my library available? 2) Does this make running my game easier?

While I feel I may be an edge case, there is always the possibility that I am not. As a note I have the same issue with M&M 3e. Several books I consider essential for me buying into the game line are not available in FG. I really want to be able to replace my whole book collection with FG.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my earlier question and give feedback on what you're looking for. It's always good to hear the point of view of other people so we can adjust our perspectives.


On a technical note, I am a .Net fullstack web developer. I am curious what makes the automation take so long to implement in the products if you are allowed to explain?
I'm not sure if you're aware - none of the people working on the PF2 ruleset or DLC products are employed full time by SmiteWorks. We do all of our development outside of our day job, and the only way we get paid is via product sales commission. Therefore, we don't spend 40+ hours a week working on FG. Plus, implementing automation is not a quick and easy task - it needs ruleset coding adjustments, product data conversion to FG, then hand coding of automation in the product - while also keeping backward compatibility with the 60+ products that already exist and the hundreds of PF2 campaigns that are ongoing. None of this is simple and quick, I wish it was but it isn't.

We make decisions based off how much free time for FG conversions we have outside of "real life", product pipeline, planned future features/functionality, changes to Core FGU, and when it comes down to it - what we want to spend hundreds of hours of our free time working on. Sorry that the Gamemastery Guide hasn't been converted yet - we don't want to release a $50 product that isn't good quality without the optional rules automated; whereas some people might not care about automation, others do and expecting FG users to spend $50 (or $35 if they already own the PDF) for a bunch of reference only data and 30 something NPC records isn't something that I feel is right. Taking all of this into account, and the fact that the NPCs are available in a free OGL community module, the Gamemastery Guide is not at the top of the development list at this time; that will change when more functionality is in the base ruleset and we've caught up with some higher priority development/conversion tasks.

[Milke]

Monster and Item Creation, Generic NPC stat blocks, World building systems...

There's a mod on here that somebody made that has all the NPCs from the GMG. I use it all the time.
Also, there's a site. I think it's monster.pf2.tools that is point and click, dropdown menu. And it will give you a text output of an NPC that can be dropped into FGU and parsed into a creature record with little to no effort.
Just my bit of input on the topic.

[Larsenex]

I didn't want to derail this thread. I appreciate the advice but I had already considered these things. I don't enjoy switching between websites and FG the same way I dislike looking back and forth between a book and FG. I want to be able to open FG and just read my books and plan my games there. I like to sit on my couch with my gaming laptop and just plan out my sessions or read the new content. It's just what I like and I can understand that it may not make sense to you but this is what I like. Since this thread was about the status of the GM Guide I was making a note here that not having it affects my willingness to buy the game line.

As for automation... The optional rules in the DMG are not implemented in FG by default. If I want Sanity or Honor for instance, I have to use an extension for them. It's not just about automation for me. I am willing to run games without high levels of automation using FG. My intent when choosing a VTT is that I wanted a single program that had everything in it both for use in online gaming during the pandemic and for when I start running in person games again. At the time it was a choice between Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. I didn't consider Foundry since their 5e support looked like it was based on piracy. The deciding factor for me was that Roll20 didn't consider the DMG necessary for running games since they had the SRD content in the program already. Fantasy Grounds had the DMG. So I went with FG. Once I had purchased my books in FG I sold my physical copies to a local bookshop. Now I only buy 5e stuff if it is for FG. I would like to do the same for Pathfinder 2e. My priorities when deciding to purchase a game line are in this order: 1) Are the books I want to have in my library available? 2) Does this make running my game easier?

While I feel I may be an edge case, there is always the possibility that I am not. As a note I have the same issue with M&M 3e. Several books I consider essential for me buying into the game line are not available in FG. I really want to be able to replace my whole book collection with FG.

On a technical note, I am a .Net fullstack web developer. I am curious what makes the automation take so long to implement in the products if you are allowed to explain?


Rzach,

I have been running Pathfinder 2E Campaigns since the CRB was available.
I have since run 3 games with my players every weekend for over a year. ShadeRavens Modules, Trenloes direct help via questions answered (on how to do things) and a few extensions are all you need.
I can personally testify that the Gamemastery Guide is NOT needed. Everything you need which is IN that guide is available to you (for FGU) in one way or another.
(+2 coppers)

[Larsenex]

There's a mod on here that somebody made that has all the NPCs from the GMG. I use it all the time.
Also, there's a site. I think it's monster.pf2.tools that is point and click, dropdown menu. And it will give you a text output of an NPC that can be dropped into FGU and parsed into a creature record with little to no effort.
Just my bit of input on the topic.

Yes its Gamboa's module and its extremely helpful. I use it nearly every game and modify his NPC's for various leaders.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?57668-(PF2-Module)-Gamboa-OGL-Gamemastery-Guide-NPCs